How can you stop black girls from being uppity?

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...nsions/381859/

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Tiambrya Jenkins was just 14 years old when she got into a fistfight that would change the course of her educational trajectory. Following an after-school scuffle between Jenkins and a white classmate, the two girls—both freshmen at Rome High School in Georgia—were transferred to an alternative school as punishment. Her white classmate was allowed to return to their original school after 90 days. But Jenkins spent the rest of the year at the transitional academy, a place she describes as more like prison than school. "It was really, really boring. You just sat there all day until the bell rang," she says. "They didn't teach us anything."

At the academy, minor missteps such as talking out of turn or violating the dress code were used as reasons to delay a student's return to high school, Jenkins says. Simple organizational mistakes like showing up late or forgetting class materials were seen as acts of defiance and could turn the clock back to zero on a student's 90 days at the transitional academy. After forgetting her notebook one day and suffering the consequences, Jenkins began stashing spares in an abandoned house across the street from the school, "just in case."

Two years later, Jenkins is back at her old high school, but she still feels hopelessly behind. Once a top math student, she'll be lucky to achieve a passing mark in advanced algebra this year.

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Jenkins is not alone in her experience. A recent report finds African-American girls were suspended at six times the rate of white girls, and more than any other group of girls (and several groups of boys). This is despite evidence that African-American students do not misbehave more frequently than their peers. The study, released in September by the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund and the National Women's Law Center, outlines the barriers to African-American girls staying in school and shows how poor educational outcomes can limit their opportunities, from lower graduation rates to setbacks in expected lifetime earnings.

Education levels have an extraordinary impact on future wages, with academic attainment standing in as a rough proxy for future wealth. A female African-American college graduate typically sees an increase of about $657,000 over the course of her lifetime as compared to a female African-American high school graduate, according to the report. Should she fail to graduate from high school, her financial outlook worsens considerably. In 2013, 43 percent of African American women without a high school diploma were living in poverty, compared to 29 percent with a high school diploma and just 9 percent with a bachelor's degree, U.S. Census data show. Helping African-American girls successfully complete high school, then, could stave off a lifetime of poverty for them and their families.

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The reasons for such setbacks have less to do with student behavior, the report's authors argue, than with disproportionate and overly punitive disciplinary practices that remove African-Americans from classes for minor and subjective infractions (examples include violations of dress code or even wearing natural hairstyles). "Traditional" middle-class notions of femininity, which value passivity in girls, can clash with stereotypical images of African-American females as loud, assertive, and provocative, and generate differing punishments for similar conduct, the authors note. Subjective offenses like "disobedience" or "disruptive behavior" may signify little more than a student's failure to conform to dominant gender norms or fit a teacher's view of what constitutes appropriate "feminine" behavior.

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Putting aside the race- and gender-discussion, what is your view on the use of suspensions as punishment for various kinds of infractions, some of which must (I imagine) be subjective and possibly minor?

How should we determine--calculate--whether or not a given suspension is appropriate or "worth it"?

I thought this would be about beef. :(

In all seriousness, there's pretty clearly a racial component in how punishments are handed out. A black student is more likely to get a more severe punishment for the same "crime" as a white student. On the other hand, it's not like we're talking about angels here. You don't get suspended from school for minor "crimes". Something like "disobedience" isn't subjective; it means the kid consistently acts up in class, talking without permission. That hurts everyone's ability to learn.

I don't think anyone's an angel, but I do think that, as a group, many teachers may often lack the necessary interpersonal and professional skills to manage their classrooms and to avoid disruptive conflicts or to resolve such conflicts in ways that aren't disastrous for one party. This belief stems from anecdotal evidence from my own school years (where it was often blatantly obvious which teachers had unnecessary problems with which students, and vice versa) as well as from lessons from similar situations where situational and interpersonal factors may cause a conflict to arise, shape the participants' perception of that conflict and influence the outcome.

For example, in the patient-doctor relationship, where some doctors may consistently, at every turn, meet assholes and other frustrations among their colleagues and patients, with no idea as to why they've been cursed thusly :o or how certain nursing homes (or similar) or specific staff members are far more likely to "observe" disruptive behaviour among the people in their care, and to restrain their charges using excessive means such as strong sedatives or physical restraints, because something about the way they are agitates people or because they're more sensitive to certain behaviours. Or cops who're more likely than their peers to get into violent conflicts and to use more force in those conflicts because they're more likely to provoke, more likely to be provoked or just not very good at de-escalation.

In all these situations, you can hope for better outcomes--in the aggregate as well as in individual cases--by helping organisations and their members develop specific skills and implement strategies that can help them resolve difficult problems without resorting to excessive measures that have disastrous results for vulnerable people. For example, doctors may need to work on their personal issues and triggers or on their behaviour as well as develop strategies for dealing with patients and colleagues who are genuinely difficult, not to mention develop the skills to deal with complex problems with significant psychological components. Nursing homes may need to change their environments or retrain their staff in order to reduce agitation and disruptive behaviour among the residents as well as to develop strategies for reducing agitation and the like when it does occur. Cops may need work on their anger issues, learn how to calm down a volatile situation so that no-one needs to get shot to death or use violence in such a way that not too many people end up suffocating to death. Teachers may need better training from more experienced and better teachers wrt how to manage classrooms and principals may need training in how to resolve conflicts between students and teachers.

If, instead, these professionals get relatively easy hassle-free access to nuclear options such as denying care, inappropriately prescribing drugs, killing people or suspending students out of school for things like "wilful defiance", they are encouraged to be mediocre rather than to be skilful, with worse outcomes overall. They are definitely not encouraged to become more skilful by having access to easy ways to make their problems "disappear" or at least suffer. A society that allows for such easy but harmful solutions devalues skilled professional work in the long run.

Wrt the particular problem of suspensions out of school for things like defiance and disobedience, while you are of the impression that these things are objective rather than subjective, I've been led to believe, by reports of investigations into the problem, that they are often poorly defined and leave much room for subjective and interpersonal factors (are you eyeballing me??!?! Are you giving me attitude?), never mind issues with gender and race. Some districts and states are trying to change the situation by no longer letting things like "wilful defiance" be grounds for out of school suspension, even though they may be grounds for disciplinary action. I dig that.

That said, I'm mostly wondering about the proportionality issue. A single out of school suspension may have disastrous consequences--social and financial--for a child's future as well as having a negative impact on his society. Perhaps you can put a dollar value on that cost and compare it to the cost of the disruption that child may cause his or her classmates, and arrive at a number for how much money and effort should be expended on attempting to make a child less disruptive without resorting to suspension.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Something like "disobedience" isn't subjective; it means the kid consistently acts up in class, talking without permission. That hurts everyone's ability to learn.

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Well, simply suspending them for that is a cop-out.

That depends on how frequently they do it. I've been in classes where the same one or two students would talk out of turn in class or talk to each to other multiple times per class.

So? We're not talking about university levels here. There are ways to deal with that and needlessly escalating it to expulsion just because you can't get your pupils to pay attention - that's cheap.

I'm talking about junior high school/high school. I've never had people speak out of turn for more than a few seconds in college.

Pray tell what those methods are, especially in inner-city schools where teachers get no respect and students get street cred by being disruptive.

I also thought this was about beef. :(

A weird question I have here is if both girls were sent to the same "alternative" school. Also, sending people to a different school seems like a weird punishment for a fight if this was the first one.

Schools are increasingly becoming like the tax, prison and general bureaucracy of the US government. Leviathan and over-arching, with an endless supply of dead-ends for the powerless and less-connected.

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Originally Posted by Loki

A black student is more likely to get a more severe punishment for the same "crime" as a white student.

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Slightly related subject that came up the other day. Easiest way to stop the open carry insanity? Bring back the Black Panthers, or even just the look.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Something like "disobedience" isn't subjective; it means the kid consistently acts up in class, talking without permission. That hurts everyone's ability to learn.

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It doesn't have to mean any of this. It could also mean that at the time of the student "acting up" (if it happened at all) the teacher was feed up with the day/class/life.

Hell, I remember getting lunch detail because I was to close to another kid that was pissing off the teacher.

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Originally Posted by Loki

I'm talking about junior high school/high school. I've never had people speak out of turn for more than a few seconds in college.

Pray tell what those methods are, especially in inner-city schools where teachers get no respect and students get street cred by being disruptive.

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That's a non-question, Loki. First of all, if your "students get street cred by being disruptive" then your society as a whole has a problem and expulsion of the whole class won't do a thing to fix it. Because it now simply is someone else's problem.

That's why I called it a cheap solution.

Secondly, every case is different. That's why there are no cookie-cutter solutions. Sometimes you as a teacher can make a difference. Sometimes it's all the teachers for a certain pupil/class. Sometimes it's the whole faculty who needs to act differently.
Resorting to expulsion for such problems is like having a hammer: Suddenly everything looks like a nail. It doesn't change anything.

It's very easy for teachers to blame behavioural problems on the pupil. God forbid, they themselves could do something different.

This is a very complex matter, Loki, and you can't simply point at one singular issue and say: "Okay, that's what we can do to solve it!"

I myself wouldn't like to be at a school where they handed out expulsions like candy. But not for the reason you think: Because it shows me that there's a deep disconnect between staff and pupils and the faculty has chosen the easy way out. Such behavious is exemplary of the US: Problems are simply locked away.

I wouldn't want to be in a school where this kind of disruptive behavior takes place. The reality is that many teachers are in these kind of schools and they can't simply will their way out. By the time a teacher faces a disruptive student, it's usually far too late for that teacher to make a meaningful difference. A student is conditioned by their environment and their own personality; a teacher who sees a student 3 hours a week is hardly in a position to change any of those factors. So what you're asking the teacher to do is allow constant disruptions to the class and act like a psychologist, hoping that they're capable of resolving whichever deep-seated issues lead the student to act out. I fail to see how it's sane to expect results in such a scenario or why it's fair to the other students to be constantly disrupted because one student refuses to learn.

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Originally Posted by Loki

a teacher who sees a student 3 hours a week is hardly in a position to change any of those factors.

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false

although I do agree its easier if the teacher wasnt the only one expecting and working on change. If one teacher is only getting 3 hours a week, there is going to be more than one teacher in that student's life. It takes a village, blah blah blah.

Are teachers trained psychologists?

are most parents?


after that sinks in its worth pointing out that teachers have a solid amount of training concerning classroom and behavioral management. I've brought that up before; far more time learning how to teach than what to teach.

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Originally Posted by Loki

I wouldn't want to be in a school where this kind of disruptive behavior takes place. The reality is that many teachers are in these kind of schools and they can't simply will their way out. By the time a teacher faces a disruptive student, it's usually far too late for that teacher to make a meaningful difference. A student is conditioned by their environment and their own personality; a teacher who sees a student 3 hours a week is hardly in a position to change any of those factors. So what you're asking the teacher to do is allow constant disruptions to the class and act like a psychologist, hoping that they're capable of resolving whichever deep-seated issues lead the student to act out. I fail to see how it's sane to expect results in such a scenario or why it's fair to the other students to be constantly disrupted because one student refuses to learn.

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Loki, please, please, please read what I write. Seriously. Take this sentence of yours:

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a teacher who sees a student 3 hours a week is hardly in a position to change any of those factors

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Seriously, I already answered that one.

Not to mention that sentences like this

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By the time a teacher faces a disruptive student, it's usually far too late for that teacher to make a meaningful difference.

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just shows me that you're unwilling to engage an honest debate because you're posing this stuff like facts when in reality it's far from being one.

Seriously, do you teach in highschool? No? How then is it that you know all about it?

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Originally Posted by Loki

Are teachers trained psychologists?

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"You need to know how to add and subtract if you want to pass this maths class or live."
"What am I, a trained mathematician??!"

"You need to learn the basics of how to manage your personal finances."
"What am I, a chartered accountant??!"

"You need to learn some basic first-aid."
"What am I, a doctor??!"

"Doc, you need to work on connecting with your patients."
"Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a licensed psychiatrist!!"
"But Doc, I think this patient has sadface! :("
"We need a psych-consult."

You get the idea. You don't need to have a degree to learn basic skills and strategies or at least develop a healthy attitude. With that said, teachers, though they aren't expected to be psychologists, should have some level of skill with practical child- and adolescent psychology if they're to be any good at their jobs, at least if they work in primary or secondary education. Additionally, classroom management, handling conflicts, identifying problems, dealing with difficult students, increasing motivation, maintaining a professional stance etc are supposed to be part of their core skills as professional individuals.

No-one's saying teachers should hold therapy sessions in the middle of algebra class. That sort of advanced intervention should be attempted in a structured fashion outside of regular class with the active and understanding participation of teachers, principals, counsellors/therapists, parents or whoever's necessary. It may require systemic changes eg. wrt developing values and competencies. But if you can just suspend kids then what motivation do you have to go the "extra" mile or even just go the last mile?

I'll concede that there may be some bad apples who're practically irredeemable, though I believe many of those may in fact be kids who would've developed in other more positive directions, had their teachers and schools been equipped and inclined to deal with the problems they may have had when they were younger. Rather than, you know, suspending them :o

Whether or not someone is irredeemable is irrelevant to the question of whether their behavior can be instantly corrected in class. Do you think teachers should endure non-stop disruption from certain students until those students are able to resolve their problems with their counselor/psychologist?

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Originally Posted by Loki

Whether or not someone is irredeemable is irrelevant to the question of whether their behavior can be instantly corrected in class. Do you think teachers should endure non-stop disruption from certain students until those students are able to resolve their problems with their counselor/psychologist?

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Do you think a lengthy suspension out of school is the only way to "instantly" get a disruptive child out of a particular class once you've failed to forestall or defuse his disruptive behaviour?

If other methods don't work, what choice do you have? I've yet to meet a teacher who thought suspension should be the first option.

Pick better methods? Become better at using those methods? Involve more skilled colleagues? Have a good plan and implement it in a rational and systematic fashion? Put the kid in permanent detention for that class and mandate remedial classes led by very skilled and experienced teachers? Enlist ninjas to physically remove the offenders from the classroom when necessary?

Basically, just because you've tried "other methods" and found that they didn't work doesn't mean you tried the right methods or that you were doing it right.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Do you think teachers should endure non-stop disruption from certain students until those students are able to resolve their problems with their counselor/psychologist?

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ignoring your usual extremism (seriously, you're bordering on handicap issues, a whole other problem and discussion with american schools).

any amount of time it takes a school to correct a student's behavior is worth it if it means that student isn't being put aside and ignored/forgotten. For that student's own life, the students who could influenced by both the school's and problem student's actions, and the community as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

ignoring your usual extremism (seriously, you're bordering on handicap issues, a whole other problem and discussion with american schools).

any amount of time it takes a school to correct a student's behavior is worth it if it means that student isn't being put aside and ignored/forgotten. For that student's own life, the students who could influenced by both the school's and problem student's actions, and the community as a whole.

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So you'd have the entire class suffer just to make sure that the disruptive student isn't "ignored"?

I think a few hours, or even days, over 13-14 years of public education is a small price.

I hope you aren't quoting ignored as a way to suggest behavior management would cause acting out for attention.