Spanish socialists get $500 million cash infusion from American capitalist system.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ure/53244192/1

Sad. :(

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Originally Posted by AP

MADRID (AP) – Two military planes carrying 17 tons of silver and gold coins scooped up from a sunken Spanish warship landed in Madrid on Saturday, ending a more than 200-year odyssey that took the treasure from an ocean floor to Florida courtrooms.

In this undated photo made available by the Spain's Culture Ministry, a member of the Ministry technical crew displays some of the 594,000 coins from a Spanish warship sunk in 1804.

In this undated photo made available by the Spain's Culture Ministry, a member of the Ministry technical crew displays some of the 594,000 coins from a Spanish warship sunk in 1804.

The planes landed with the 594,000 coins and other artifacts retrieved after a five-year legal wrangle with a Florida-based salvage company, which had taken the haul to the U.S. in May 2007.

Deep sea explorers found the treasure in a shipwreck, believed to be Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, off Portugal's Atlantic coast. British warships had sunk it during a 1804 gunbattle as it approached Spain as part of a fleet that had traveled from South America. The Mercedes was believed to have had 200 people aboard when it exploded and sank.

Once the treasure is offloaded from the planes it will be transported to an undisclosed location, state broadcaster RTVE said.

A detail of 30 officers from Spain's paramilitary Civil Guard force protected the coins once they landed. Civil Guard spokesman Miguel Tobias said everyone had breathed a sigh of relief at having the treasure back safely on Spanish soil.

"There were some storms on the way over," said Tobias, explaining why the two Hercules C-130 transports had landed at Torrejon de Ardoz military air base late.

The trove was transported to Spain despite a last-ditch claim to the treasure by Peru, the South American country from which the coins first set off more than two centuries ago.

"The coins were made from raw material obtained from mines that are currently on Peruvian soil and were struck at the Lima mint," according to a Peruvian foreign ministry statement from Friday.

In 1804, Peru was the local seat of the Spanish crown in South America and documents held in Spain's archives show that Mercedes was commissioned by King Charles IV to transport and protect a shipment of coins and bullion at the request of a noble family in Lima.

Peru said in the statement it would maintain its claim despite losing an appeal Friday and the rejection by U.S. courts of previous claims by descendants of the Peruvian merchants who had owned the shipment.

Odyssey Marine Exploration made international headlines when it discovered the wreck, estimating the trove to be worth as much as $500 million to collectors, making the haul one of the richest ever. The Tampa-based salvage outfit had used a remote-controlled submersible to explore the depths and bring items including cannon balls and other metal fragments to a surface ship, and argued that it was entitled to the treasure.

The Spanish government challenged Odyssey's ownership in U.S. District Court soon after the coins were flown back to Tampa, relying on documents from its naval archive which listed Mercedes as a naval warship.

International treaties generally hold that warships sunk in battle are protected from treasure seekers and the Spanish government successfully argued that it had never relinquished ownership of the ship or its contents.

A federal district court first ruled in 2009 that U.S. courts didn't have jurisdiction, and ordered the treasure returned.

Odyssey then lost every round in federal courts trying to hold on to the treasure, as the Spanish government painted them as modern-day pirates plundering the nation's cultural heritage.

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Knew this was going to happen when wikileaks leaked the cables talking about trading the gold for paintings :(

Should have dumped the shit back in the ocean where they found it

Isn't the fact that the Spanish never bothered to physically recover the gold themselves tantamount to relinquishing control?

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

Isn't the fact that the Spanish never bothered to physically recover the gold themselves tantamount to relinquishing control?

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Clearly not.

Point 2: Why were the treasure seekers aware of this treaty? Sounds like something to be abreast of.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Should have dumped the shit back in the ocean where they found it

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Except that the courts were holding it pending the outcome of the court case, natch. In hindsight, they probably should have just booby trapped it and left it where it was.

Worst part is that the guys who actually retrieved it probably won't even be able to cover their costs or get a finders fee out of it. "Thanks for the tens of millions of dollars worth of work, and fuck you very much!" :bored:

And the moral of the story is, never do anything worthwhile, because if you do, some government's going to swoop in and steal it all anyway.

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

Point 2: Why were the treasure seekers aware of this treaty? Sounds like something to be abreast of.

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Sounds like the sticky point they lost on was that the sunken ship was classified as a war vessel, whereas most sunken "treasure ships" were merchant vessels or pirate ships or cargo ships. (And this one was not a proper warship, by any means, but it looks like someone wrote down that it was 200 years ago, and that was good enough for our courts, yippie.)

The thing that slays me, though, is that the Spanish government of today is at least 5 governments removed from the government that actually owned that war vessel (government changed 3 times during the Napoleonic Wars, the Spanish civil war in the 1990's, and Franco, the current Democratic government, and I think I'm missing one or two in there as well), and they still get to claim it. What a fucking joke of a legal code to let that happen. Not the original owners, made no effort to reclaim it, just waited for someone else to do the work and then stole the fruits of their labor.

On the other hand, what a perfect summary of government everywhere.

:bulb:

With that kind of piss-poor management, it's surprising Odyssey is still in business.

I'm curious as to how you think Odyssey should have managed the situation to achieve a better result... seems to me that the Spanish government was lying in wait ever since the discovery, and I don't see any other way this could have worked out.

From 'Memnuses quoted article - "International treaties generally hold that warships sunk in battle are protected from treasure seekers"

Odyssey should know the regulatory procedures involved in the business in which they operate.

In other words, they shouldn't have gone near the shipwreck if they had little to no chance of seeing any profit from their financial outlay. Piss-poor management.

Or; they weren't even aware of the international treaties involved here. In which case it really is diabolically piss-poor management.

I think possibly the point of contention is whether it was a naval warship or not... but I dunno.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

From 'Memnuses quoted article - "International treaties generally hold that warships sunk in battle are protected from treasure seekers"

Odyssey should know the regulatory procedures involved in the business in which they operate.

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Been clairvoyant, in other words?

The ship was owned by a merchant family, and commissioned to carry treasure from Peru to Spain. It was a privately-owned merchant vessel, not a state owned warship. But, Spain was able to pull a 200 year old document from a sealed navel archive where some dead noble (who undoubtedly had a vested interest in doing so) referred to it as a war vessel, so that was apparently enough for a shit-for-brains government official to decide that government officials are inherently above reproach, classify it as a war vessel and fuck the people who did the work out of the fruits of their labor.

You'd have a better case classifying my car as an armored personnel carrier on account of the firearms and "personnel" it carries when I'm driving it. :bored:

Given the fact that it was brought down in a naval battle and was part of a Spanish squadron I think the fact that its ownership was private can't be taken to mean very much. If a government rents a building that building does not become the property of the government, the building does however become a government building. In the case of a rented mission the difference becomes even sharper. The owner could be a national of one country where the rights would lie with the government of an entirely different country.

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

Been clairvoyant, in other words?

The ship was owned by a merchant family, and commissioned to carry treasure from Peru to Spain. It was a privately-owned merchant vessel, not a state owned warship.

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even then the cargo the ship was hired to carry is still property of the Spanish state.

Anyways: Oddysey are a bunch of treasure hunters, they should be forbidden from touching anything archaeological. Leave it to the archaeologists or leave it alone.

umm, Oddysey did the same, if not better job, of retrieving and preserving the gold than any archaeological group would have :bulb:
Thats part of the problem, the Spanish government didn't assert their claim until Oddysey spent millions on this find.

No 10% finders fee?

Nothing, the spanish government left the company high and dry on all expenses.

That is ridiculous. Least they can do is cover their expenses.

To quote the local paper (Oddysey is also local):

Officials at Odyssey Marine, which spent $2.6 million salvaging, transporting and storing the treasure, declined to comment. But in a statement earlier, Greg Stemm, Odyssey's co-founder, said, "People won't stop looking for Spanish shipwrecks. They will just stop reporting their finds. . . . No archaeology will be done."

The company will receive no compensation from Spain for its recovery of the coins.

Spain believes the coins were recovered from the wreck of the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes. The ship was sunk by British warships as it sailed from South America. More than 200 people went to the bottom with it.

But Odyssey officials say the wreck was never positively identified as the Mercedes, casting doubt on Spain's claim.

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Officials at Odyssey Marine, which spent $2.6 million salvaging, transporting and storing the treasure, declined to comment. But in a statement earlier, Greg Stemm, Odyssey's co-founder, said, "People won't stop looking for Spanish shipwrecks. They will just stop reporting their finds. . . . No archaeology will be done.

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That is a pretty stupid thing to say, how will they then realize the treasure, i.e. convert it in to cash in bank and any attempt to do so without declaring the find would be considered money laundering and if discovered persons involved will not only loose whatever can still be recovered but will serve time in jail.

I am pretty sure that they could have played it smart and negotiated a reward from Spain prior to extracting the treasure, instead they gambled on the courts in an attempt to try to keep more of the treasure and lost. Although in their defense it was not clear which country they should negotiate with is as according to TV, Portugal had better claim to the vessel but did not press it for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust

No 10% finders fee?

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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust

That is ridiculous. Least they can do is cover their expenses.

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Agreed. Though that might be because of

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Originally Posted by Asmodian

I am pretty sure that they could have played it smart and negotiated a reward from Spain prior to extracting the treasure, instead they gambled on the courts in an attempt to try to keep more of the treasure and lost. Although in their defense it was not clear which country they should negotiate with is as according to TV, Portugal had better claim to the vessel but did not press it for some reason.

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OTOH, they never asked for it to be brought to surface, but it's still theirs. You could argue they don't mind it being in the ocean, they just don't want treasure hunters to profit from it.

It has always been a confusing thing to me: how can you claim something to your country, when your country as it is now did not exist then? And considering the money was probably earned from colonies and oppressing the indigenous people there, how is it yours and not theirs?

Either way, they could have (should have?) consulted with the Spanish government before digging it up. They did so with the British for the HMS Sussex, and are allowed to keep between 40% and 80% of the spoils (depending on how much it's worth). That way you have both permission, and get to earn money.

By the way, a frigate in a squadron commanded by a naval officer, sank in a battle with British warships, while transporting coin from Spain to France as part of a treaty between those nations, it sounds like more than a 'technicality' on a piece of paper that it should be considered a warship.

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

Been clairvoyant, in other words?

The ship was owned by a merchant family, and commissioned to carry treasure from Peru to Spain. It was a privately-owned merchant vessel, not a state owned warship. But, Spain was able to pull a 200 year old document from a sealed navel archive where some dead noble (who undoubtedly had a vested interest in doing so) referred to it as a war vessel, so that was apparently enough for a shit-for-brains government official to decide that government officials are inherently above reproach, classify it as a war vessel and fuck the people who did the work out of the fruits of their labor.

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Seems there was enough doubt about its military status before they went down a-treasure-huntin'. Tho admittedly I'm only going by what I've read here.

If I were running a small-time concern like Odyssey, I'd make damned sure my business would see a return before such an expensive outlay.

Something like ...

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Originally Posted by Flixy

Either way, they could have (should have?) consulted with the Spanish government before digging it up. They did so with the British for the HMS Sussex, and are allowed to keep between 40% and 80% of the spoils (depending on how much it's worth). That way you have both permission, and get to earn money.

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... f'r instance.

Which is why I mentioned what I see as being poor management.

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Originally Posted by Flixy

Either way, they could have (should have?) consulted with the Spanish government before digging it up. They did so with the British for the HMS Sussex, and are allowed to keep between 40% and 80% of the spoils (depending on how much it's worth). That way you have both permission, and get to earn money.

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From what I've read, they didn't know it was from a Spanish ship until after they recovered it. They had initially thought it was the Merchant Royal, an English trade vessel that they had been searching for when they found this wreck, and it wasn't until the stuff they brought up was carefully examined that they figured out that it couldn't possibly be from the Merchant Royal, and decided it was probably from that Spanish ship. This was also in Portugese waters, so they would have had no idea that they should have consulted with the Spanish government until it was too late.

edit: This also happened. It might just be me, but it seems like the Spanish are sorta being dicks about this whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

From what I've read, they didn't know it was from a Spanish ship until after they recovered it. They had initially thought it was the Merchant Royal, an English trade vessel that they had been searching for when they found this wreck, and it wasn't until the stuff they brought up was carefully examined that they figured out that it couldn't possibly be from the Merchant Royal, and decided it was probably from that Spanish ship. This was also in Portugese waters, so they would have had no idea that they should have consulted with the Spanish government until it was too late.

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Except that ship sank ~40 miles from Land's end, UK, and this was from ~200 km west of Portugal (as opposed to this place, for which they had permission, for the Merchant Royal). So they might also have been less than honest about what they were looking for, and finding. They didn't disclose the location until after a court order, and obscured the printing on coins in publications.

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edit: This also happened. It might just be me, but it seems like the Spanish are sorta being dicks about this whole thing.

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Seems to me they were both being dicks to each other.

Except one side spent a lot of time and money to do something productive, while the other side, having absolutely no intention of using resources to do the same task, just went through the courts to have their pie and eat it too.

As they were entitled to do, and as Odyssey should have known they were entitled to do.

A lay person may not know that rule, but a company like Odyssey damn sure should.

It sucks and the Spanish are being dicks, but Odyssey needs better management.

RB: fix your formatting!

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Originally Posted by Loki

Except one side spent a lot of time and money to do something productive, while the other side, having absolutely no intention of using resources to do the same task, just went through the courts to have their pie and eat it too.

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Except, first of all it's their right, and second, they might prefer it on the ocean bottom as opposed to sold by others. I have stuff in my house that I don't use, nor plan to use, but that doesn't give you the right to take it from me and sell it for your own profit. Or to pretend it wasn't mine, keep secret where you got it in the first place, etc.

You could also claim that the wreck as it is should be left untouched if possible to preserve it, but considering this ship blew up after it's munition storage exploded I don't think it's a very intact wreck.

It would probably be nice for the Spanish to pay at least the expenses.. but hey, if someone walks to your car and washes your windows without you asking, should you pay him? You might like that your windows are clean, but you never asked for it in the first place. Now Odyssey dug up a treasure for the Spanish, but eh Spanish never asked for it to be lifted from the ocean to begin with. Still doesn't make it Odyssey's.

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Originally Posted by Flixy

RB: fix your formatting!
Except, first of all it's their right, and second, they might prefer it on the ocean bottom as opposed to sold by others. I have stuff in my house that I don't use, nor plan to use, but that doesn't give you the right to take it from me and sell it for your own profit. Or to pretend it wasn't mine, keep secret where you got it in the first place, etc.

You could also claim that the wreck as it is should be left untouched if possible to preserve it, but considering this ship blew up after it's munition storage exploded I don't think it's a very intact wreck.

It would probably be nice for the Spanish to pay at least the expenses.. but hey, if someone walks to your car and washes your windows without you asking, should you pay him? You might like that your windows are clean, but you never asked for it in the first place. Now Odyssey dug up a treasure for the Spanish, but eh Spanish never asked for it to be lifted from the ocean to begin with. Still doesn't make it Odyssey's.

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Those are deeply, deeply flawed analogies.

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Originally Posted by Flixy

RB: fix your formatting!
Except, first of all it's their right, and second, they might prefer it on the ocean bottom as opposed to sold by others. I have stuff in my house that I don't use, nor plan to use, but that doesn't give you the right to take it from me and sell it for your own profit. Or to pretend it wasn't mine, keep secret where you got it in the first place, etc.

You could also claim that the wreck as it is should be left untouched if possible to preserve it, but considering this ship blew up after it's munition storage exploded I don't think it's a very intact wreck.

It would probably be nice for the Spanish to pay at least the expenses.. but hey, if someone walks to your car and washes your windows without you asking, should you pay him? You might like that your windows are clean, but you never asked for it in the first place. Now Odyssey dug up a treasure for the Spanish, but eh Spanish never asked for it to be lifted from the ocean to begin with. Still doesn't make it Odyssey's.

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A better analogy would be you dropping your watch in the ocean, doing absolutely nothing to obtain that watch for 50 years, and then suing the person who spends thousands of dollars in order to retrieve your watch.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

As they were entitled to do, and as Odyssey should have known they were entitled to do.

A lay person may not know that rule, but a company like Odyssey damn sure should.

It sucks and the Spanish are being dicks, but Odyssey needs better management.

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Are we going to go into the fallacy that anything that is legal is morally correct? And it has already been pointed out that the search team had no reason to think the ship in question was a Spanish "warship" until after the fact.

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Originally Posted by Loki

A better analogy would be you dropping your watch in the ocean, doing absolutely nothing to obtain that watch for 50 years, and then suing the person who spends thousands of dollars in order to retrieve your watch.

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It's still not theirs to take my watch and sell it for millions, even if they spent thousands of dollars to get it. Like I said earlier, I do feel Spain should pay the expenses/finders fee, but they have no obligation to, and they never asked for it to be brought to the surface.

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Are we going to go into the fallacy that anything that is legal is morally correct? And it has already been pointed out that the search team had no reason to think the ship in question was a Spanish "warship" until after the fact.

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It has been pointed out, but it is only their word. And they weren't looking where they first said they were looking, and obscured their findings to prevent identification, so I'm not that sure they did not know. Why else be so secretive?

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Originally Posted by Flixy

It's still not theirs to take my watch and sell it for millions, even if they spent thousands of dollars to get it. Like I said earlier, I do feel Spain should pay the expenses/finders fee, but they have no obligation to, and they never asked for it to be brought to the surface.

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So they don't give a damn about this ship (and quite likely didn't know it existed), but suddenly care when someone else does the work for them?

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Originally Posted by Loki

So they don't give a damn about this ship (and quite likely didn't know it existed), but suddenly care when someone else does the work for them?

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Hey, we live in a world where finding hardly ever results in transfer of ownership, it should surprise nobody that if the stakes are this high memories of times long gone become very accute. It's not like we don't have lawsuits going on as we speak about people who are trying to reclaim the property of family members that perished in the nazi death camps. And that is also 67 years ago with the claimants having done very little else besides establishing that something belonged to their great-uncle at some time.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Are we going to go into the fallacy that anything that is legal is morally correct? And it has already been pointed out that the search team had no reason to think the ship in question was a Spanish "warship" until after the fact.

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No I'm going for the "fallacy" than anything legal is legal.

On the ethical issue I said "it sucks and the Spanish are being dicks" but the thing is that right or wrong the Spanish had the law on their side and Odyssey did not. Odyssey lifting that treasure without consent was illegal, pure and simple. Maybe it shouldn't be illegal, but it was and they should have known about it in advance of their actions. I don't necessarily agree with the law (but I do understand why it is the law) but the courts were right.

And next time, the ship stays under water, the "national treasure" stays in the ship, and no one benefits. But at least an archaic piece of customary law will be well-applied!

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Originally Posted by Loki

And next time, the ship stays under water, the "national treasure" stays in the ship, and no one benefits. But at least an archaic piece of customary law will be well-applied!

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Leave that for next time, by next time there'll be another government in power and these politicians will be retired. If politicians were a fraction as reasonable as you seem to be expecting then why would we be collectively many trillions in debt with interest payments exceeding military or education expenditure?

Besides, next time the treasure seekers will simply arrange an agreement beforehand. As they did with the UK and the Merchant Royal - its not like they didn't know that's what they were supposed to do.

Because politicians need to get elected now and their legacy is determined by what happens during their rule. Meanwhile, the benefits of debt are immediate, while the costs are long-term. Given those incentives, there's nothing irrational about running up the debt.

This decision benefits no one. At the very least, Spain should have paid cost + 10-20% to the people who found the ship.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Because politicians need to get elected now and their legacy is determined by what happens during their rule. Meanwhile, the benefits of debt are immediate, while the costs are long-term. Given those incentives, there's nothing irrational about running up the debt.

This decision benefits no one. At the very least, Spain should have paid cost + 10-20% to the people who found the ship.

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This decision benefits Spain now. They have the entire haul.

Furthermore it sets the precedent that next time people will have to negotiate with them before hands rather than just try and take it.

What have they lost out on now?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

This decision benefits Spain now. They have the entire haul.

Furthermore it sets the precedent that next time people will have to negotiate with them before hands rather than just try and take it.

What have they lost out on now?

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I think the next time, if it is the same company, they will purposely melt down the gold, destroy all the evidence, and just say it was a random unidentifiable shipwreck! Well, it could happen, right? :bulb:

Doesn't need to be the same company, but now every treasure hunter ship will now include a smelter as standard equipment. :)

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

umm, Oddysey did the same, if not better job, of retrieving and preserving the gold than any archaeological group would have :bulb:

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Irrelevant unless Oddeysey is hired in an archaeological context to do archaeological work. Otherwise it is treasurehunting a.k.a plundering.
And plundering is generally considered a crime, part of the illegal international trade in artefacts.
wether or not the wreck was identifyable or not doesn't matter for the actions to be plundering (@agamemnus)

Loki, I must say I am rather surprised by you. You want governments, especially Spain, to put in austerity measures, but at the same time want them to pay millions and millions for someone bringing up their property without them asking for it in the first place. And if they won't pay, you want them to just give it up. And I also thought you liked property rights, e.g. that you can do with your property as you please, including ignoring it if you want. Or does that only apply when it's in American companies' favour?