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You're suggesting the drug use is reason enough for zimmermann to feel threatened and justified his decision to jump to murder under SYG. You're also saying that the pot use some how makes him someone who isn't a good community member.
Its all in these two sentences:
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Right but its not like the victim was a pillar of the community. The drug use is going to hurt the prosecution because this adds to the defense that Zimmerman thought he was in danger
Are you just being dense on propose? Do you really think this won't be card the defense plays? REALLY?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
I'm with Lewk on this one. I'm also for the legalisation of soft drugs, but I also see how this plays into the hands of the defence. So too does the photo of the injuries and the reported witness statement that his head was getting hit against the pavement before he shot.
From what I've seen now I couldn't speculate whether he'll be convicted or not, neither outcome now will surprise me. The idea that Martin was high does play against the "he was a totally innocent victim going about his life in a non-threatening way" card. I think OG you're showing your prejudices here not to see it, its not about what we think should be legal but how the lawyers can be portray what happened to a jury of 12.
a jury of 12 pulled from a population that statistically supports pot, thats got nothing to do with my prejudice. Simply stating that there were drugs in his system isn't going to show that this guy wasn't innocent or threatening in some manner. If the defense had these reports, so did the prosecution, so I'm sure the jury was well vetted on that issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
There is a difference between supporting legalisation of a controlled substance in an opinion poll and thinking its irrelevant that someone allegedly assaulting somebody else who was acting in self-defence was high. Even if he was drunk it'd be relevant, being high is much more so.
I am of the mindset that it should be legal, but wrong, so one of that majority you refer to. I also support the legalisation of prostitution. If I'm not wrong, so too does Lewkowski on that one too. Doesn't mean to quote you I "support pot", I don't think a majority "supports pot". I think people should be allowed to choose and make mistakes, I've made mistakes throughout my life (tried pot, not prostitutes just to be clear) but thinking people can determine right or wrong without the state does not mean we think it's right.
This only makes logical sense as a defense if Zimmerman knew about the drug use, and thought it presented a danger to himself. It still wouldn't make it that significant of a defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
where is this coming from? there are no studies that support being high leading to aggressiveness (it has however been tied to relaxation and euphoria), but there are multiple for drinking. why even attempt to compare the 2 in this manner?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Illusions, I think the drug use combined with the injuries Zimmerman suffered are the issue.
So you agree that drugs can cause aggression, you just dispute which one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Since we've crossed that rubicon, while cannabis is generally linked with "peace" there is evidence that THC can cause both mind altering affects and aggression. It is that combined with the injuries that Zimmerman suffered which means this is not an open and shut case of murder.
citation. I know there was a study done back in 05-06 from the Netherlands that failed to account for withdrawal and pre-existing conditions, so i'm hoping you've got something new.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
THC is mix of some 400 different compounds, while alcohol is not. Alcohol has been shown to lead to aggression, how you're taking that statement and twisting it to include such a broad statement as "drugs cause aggression" is beyond me :bulb: Thats like saying humanity is only made of stupid and using Lewk as your evidence.
Uh, Rand, I'd like to point out that drugs have indeed very different effects - there's a reason why Methamphetamin is also called "Speed" or "Crank", whereas users of Opium usually just lie around - ever seen pictures or movies of Opium dens?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Just two prominent examples. I would rate THC among the "downers" of drugs. I'd also like to see actual facts regarding the aggrssion potential of THC users. Not just your say-so.
Just one example from a quick Google search: http://adai.washington.edu/marijuana...aggression.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Semi-Off-Topic: The person who assaulted me years ago was high when he did so, I don't know from what drug.
I believe it's called British air. :(
Real beer?
there is no listed source, and the best that article can claim for your side is "sometimes when marijuana is used it can cause fear, anxiety, panic or paranoia, which can result in an aggressive outburst." If thats as far as this goes, this puts Trayvon in the position of defending himself from Zimmermann.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
and "sometimes" causing a certain behavior which has seperately been linked to aggression seems rather unscientific, no? Especially since THC is known to cause certain behaviors that are seperately linked to very non-aggressive actions. not to mention the bias source. :haha:
Not to mention:
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Research also shows that marijuana users who commit violent acts usually have a history of violence before they start using the drug.
Did Martin have a history of violence?
Bias/unscientific source? The link came from a university website.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
I really, really don't care into getting in a debate with you about cannabis, the point is that (A) Zimmerman was injured by Martin, and (B) Martin was under the influence of drugs when he injured Zimmerman. Both these issues will be used by the defence.
Yes, and? Sometimes universities put pretty weird stuff on their websites. I mean, we recently had a discussion over here in Germany where one University officially supported some guy who "proved" that ESP abilities exist in humans...Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
... and that particular paper looked way more scientific than your link. "Maybe", "Sometimes", "Usually" are not terms scientists use without some kind of reference as to what those words actually mean.
If the shoe was on the other foot and it was Zimmerman who was under the influence of illegal drugs when he shot Martin it would definitely be evidence used by the prosecution.
The information came from the National Cannabis Prevention and Information Centre in Australia. You found a rehosted version of it on a Uni domain (likely used as course discussion material since its outdated compare to its original source). Know what else I can find on Uni domains? How to catch Mew.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
such a cop out, right when you might have been able to learn something about drugs. :( retreat back into your hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Hell, we don't even know if the defense is going to run with the pot angle, we only know about it because of the autopsy report.
I'm pro-legalisation so what do I need to learn?
That drugs aren't something you can dismiss with blanket statements like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
I didn't say that sentence.
:bulb:Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Um, you did. In fact the quote links to it, but since that seems to confusing for you, heres a screenshot
http://i.imgur.com/AmX1a.jpg
Its a few posts under the one you made where you tried to compare THC to alcohol :haha:
The screenshot shows a sentence. I never said a simplistic blanket sentence "drugs can cause aggression" and your screenshot shows that. Or is the word sentence too complicated for you?
Having read the previous page I'm not sure how Martin smoking weed in any way should help Zimmerman's defense in any remotely reasonable society that doesn't routinely go down the "oh but everyone knows she's a slut" route in rape trials.
Marijuana is sometimes associated with aggressive behaviour, but the question is whether or not there was any unprovoked aggressive behaviour in this case, on Martin's part. If Martin had a documented history of violent behaviour, well, that might help the defense... provided they can prove that he exhibited unprovoked violent behaviour in this case.
He said "statement"; the text he quoted wasn't a complete sentence but it was a statement you made as a part of a sentence. You said "sentence", but as you no doubt realise, the text he quoted wasn't a complete sentence. I mean, the first word wasn't capitalised, the snippet wasn't punctuated... there's not way it could be mistaken for a sentence. The question is, what's your point? Yes, drugs can cause aggression, and in some few cases aggressive behaviour may possibly be associated with THC use. What does that have to do with this case?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Given that Zimmerman is the one exhibiting the dodgy behaviour that may ultimately have led to Martin's death, that wouldn't be surprising. Of course it'd be up to the prosecution to show that the cannabis had influenced his behaviour in that particular way.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Come on Rand, you're all over the place at this point.
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Originally Posted by RandBlade
You even tried to defend your claim that THC causes aggression :haha: If you're willing to admit that you understand that drugs cause different effects, thats a great first step. Now lets try to understand that THC is one of those drugs that doesn't cause aggression.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
That's a blanket statement that isn't necessary true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
However, as Rand's own source states: Aggression under the influence of THC is usually associated with a history of violent behaviour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
That nonwithstanding, Rand's source is shit because it doesn't tell us incident rates. What does "usually" mean in that context? 1 in 5? 1 in 20? 1 in 100?
Any suggestion of criminality on Martin's part will make Zimmerman more sympathetic to the jury. All respect to OG but attitudes toward pot are almost completely irrelevant to the effect Lewk referenced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions