Can American conservatism survive intact & unadulterated?

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

You'd be surprised how often those people don't let on what their true beliefs are when conversing with normies. 'Hiding your power level', they call it. This is a deliberate recruitment tactic with them, because they know if they go straight in with the white genocide, adrenochrome harvesting etc, it just turns people off. So you don't necessarily know what they actually believe just by talking to them.

That aside, if they're as reasonable as you claim I think they'd be open to the idea that if the voted for Trump they bare a share of the responsibility for all the damage done the past four years, including the lives lost, and that they're the ones who need to do some listening to what the other half has to say.

For a change.

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After years of mounting evidence that there is a difference between the sides wrt the ways in and extent to which political affiliation influences their tendency to embrace or tolerate truly reprehensible and/or borderline delusional views—and disregard truth and basic morality—I feel like it might be time to retire this tiresome "they're just regular people" defense. Regular people believe, think and do some truly fucked-up repugnant shit, but not all groups of regular people are alike in this respect. Sometimes we see good that just isn't there—because we want to, because we're wired that way. But seeing things that aren't there isn't always a path to success or healing.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Have you actually spent much time talking to people who voted for Trump, or who are habitual GOP voters? Because while there's your usual cranks and those holding deeply objectionable vIews, most of the ones I've actually talked to at length are just normal people who share most of the same basic priorities with other Americans. I disagree with them politically, but that's hardly grounds for demonizing a huge group of people. Not everyone is a QAnon boogaloo proud boy.

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Indeed. From the little I can tell - and though I have met one Trump-voting American couple I have not discussed politics with them, nor have I discussed Trump with any other American - they seem to believe that Trump does a better job with the economy. Normal folk worry about their jobs, their paychecks, their financial security. They reason that those things are better under Trump than current alternatives. Simple as that, really. No widespread white supremacy, conspiracy theorising, racism nor misogyny, just normal folk who want job security, and pay little attention to or ignore the sideline crazy.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

Indeed. From the little I can tell - and though I have met one Trump-voting American couple I have not discussed politics with them, nor have I discussed Trump with any other American - they seem to believe that Trump does a better job with the economy. Normal folk worry about their jobs, their paychecks, their financial security. They reason that those things are better under Trump than current alternatives. Simple as that, really. No widespread white supremacy, conspiracy theorising, racism nor misogyny, just normal folk who want job security, and pay little attention to or ignore the sideline crazy.

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Really should distinguish between voluntarily self-reported preferences and unreported or revealed preferences. Ofc, what you describe does reveal something concerning about a person: they value minor (or, thanks to the trade war and the pandemic, non-existent) economic advantage over everything else that might matter to a person who wants to be decent—and/or have a dangerously different approach to appraising information about reality. How do you place minor (if any) economic advantage over racism, misogyny, abuse of children, attacks on freedom and democracy and outright lethal incompetence? There are several different ways you can do it, but no approach to that state reflects particularly well on a person. I must disagree with this defense of being pro-Trump based on what "normal folk" are supposed to be like. A majority of American voters oppose Trump—and a staggering number oppose him vehemently (see historically large protests against him since the beginning of his presidency); clearly, "normal folk" have complex hierarchies of priorities.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

You'd be surprised how often those people don't let on what their true beliefs are when conversing with normies. 'Hiding your power level', they call it. This is a deliberate recruitment tactic with them, because they know if they go straight in with the white genocide, adrenochrome harvesting etc, it just turns people off. So you don't necessarily know what they actually believe just by talking to them.

That aside, if they're as reasonable as you claim I think they'd be open to the idea that if the voted for Trump they bare a share of the responsibility for all the damage done the past four years, including the lives lost, and that they're the ones who need to do some listening to what the other half has to say.

For a change.

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I'd like to be clear - I was arguing with the statement that half of the country spouts hyper-partisan vitriol, not that we should kowtow to Trump voters and give them a free pass for their choices.

I live is a super weird bubble of extremely well educated and often well-off people. And I'll admit that the (relatively rare) GOP or Trump voter boils down to one of three cases:
1. Single issue (or few issue) voters who are unlikely to support a Democrat for the simple reason that these issues will not change any time soon. To them the person fronting the ticket doesn't matter as long as their chosen issue is represented appropriately. It could be some element of foreign policy, or immigration policy, or abortion, or taxes... but whatever it is, it has very little to do with a broader partisan bent.

2. Long time conservatives who generally buy into the small government idea and are very suspicious of Democratic policy priorities. Often borderline libertarian. These are the people who don't like Trump at all but were way more afraid of what a Clinton or Biden administration would do, so held their noses and voted for him (or, on occasion, didn't).

3. True believers who believe they're listening to what he means, not what he says. They overlook his personal failings and the manifest evidence of his incompetence in office and construct an alternative narrative. It's largely fabulism, but they're smart enough to construct a sophisticated narrative. This is the '3D chess, not checkers' crowd. Oddly enough, there is a left leaning correlate that sees Trump's actions as part of a nefarious master plan rather than a series of bumbling responses that lurch from one crisis to another.

Group 1 isn't worth engaging with, they're unlikely to shift. Group 2 is certainly worth engaging with and are persuadable - but they are relatively few in number. Group 3 is the closest to the hyperpartisan crowd and while they're theoretically capable of being persuaded, it's damned hard.

BUT! These are all small parts of the electorate (Group 1's subgroup on abortion might be the only one that really has electoral heft). I've also had the opportunity to learn a bit about the worldview and political leanings of people who aren't overeducated and living in relative comfort. Blue collar types, people living in rural areas, etc. And these people don't engage with politics very much at all. They vote, often reliably for one party or another, but don't get too worked up about it on a regular basis.

I'd bet that at least 90% of Trump voters don't know any of the coded language you describe above. It's limited to those who are very politically engaged, especially on the internet. Most people don't think much about politics except when an election rolls around, and they are not well versed in the many deficiencies of Trump of the GOP's current platform. They vote based on tribal loyalty, or the commonly held beliefs of their peers about who is better suited to deal with X issue. Occasionally they'll vote against someone who's portrayed as being a status quo candidate because the status quo isn't working. A lot of times they're afraid of change, which is frankly not an unreasonable position to take.

But the vast majority of these people don't know jack shit about QAnon. They might be casual consumers of e.g. Fox News, but they're not obsessive consumers of the media. They're probably casually racist (most Americans are) but would be horrified to hear some of the drivel that comes out of the foaming mouth types. Mostly they just want to get on with their lives. They don't even know enough about politics to be hyperpartisan. If the pictures I paint is more accurate, it means that the strategies towards engaging with them must be fundamentally different than if your assertions are accurate.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

Indeed. From the little I can tell - and though I have met one Trump-voting American couple I have not discussed politics with them, nor have I discussed Trump with any other American - they seem to believe that Trump does a better job with the economy. Normal folk worry about their jobs, their paychecks, their financial security. They reason that those things are better under Trump than current alternatives. Simple as that, really. No widespread white supremacy, conspiracy theorising, racism nor misogyny, just normal folk who want job security, and pay little attention to or ignore the sideline crazy.

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I do want to note that they probably are sexist and racist and believe in some conspiracies. Not that their compatriots who didn't vote for the GOP are necessarily all that great, either. But their sexism and racism and belief in conspiracy theories is likely not driving their political beliefs all that much, mostly because they're not super politically aware and because their racism and sexism is largely of the incidental variety.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Have you actually spent much time talking to people who voted for Trump, or who are habitual GOP voters? Because while there's your usual cranks and those holding deeply objectionable vIews, most of the ones I've actually talked to at length are just normal people who share most of the same basic priorities with other Americans. I disagree with them politically, but that's hardly grounds for demonizing a huge group of people. Not everyone is a QAnon boogaloo proud boy.

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And yet 80% of them don't think Covid is a big deal. I wouldn't be surprised if a similar percentage believe these elections were stolen from Trump by (((Soros))) et al.

The reality is that most aren't worth engaging for the simple fact they don't want to be engaged.

wiggin's analysis is missing the whole 'facebook' side of things.

If your formative experiences with the Internet were in the late 90s and early 0s (as I think many of ours were) there is a tendency to think of the Internet as siloed off from 'IRL' and populated predominantly by a subset of technologically mostly young men and boys with distinct concerns, interests and opinions from everyone else.

In reality, I don't think this has been true for the best part of a decade, and following current events via your Facebook feed is at least as mainstream as cable news, and probably more so than the major newspapers.

And Facebook is where a lot of the pro-Trump memeing, conspiracy theorising etc took place.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

what if what the other half of the country has to say is hyper-partisan vitriol, hmmm? what then?

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It's not.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Have you actually spent much time talking to people who voted for Trump, or who are habitual GOP voters? Because while there's your usual cranks and those holding deeply objectionable vIews, most of the ones I've actually talked to at length are just normal people who share most of the same basic priorities with other Americans. I disagree with them politically, but that's hardly grounds for demonizing a huge group of people. Not everyone is a QAnon boogaloo proud boy.

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That this obvious truism even needs saying is rather sad.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

I did not say the Democrats should spend their time with vitriol etc. I'll have that covered over the next few months, so they don't need to worry about that. What they should do is what you said: remain laser focused on furthering their political and policy agenda, and not compromise on it.

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If the Democrats don't compromise then clearly they will achieve nothing in the forthcoming years considering the GOP almost certainly have won the Senate.

Biden has won precisely because he is a sane individual who can reach across the aisle.

Classy from Buttigieg. Most of the Dem leadership seem very classy. Glad they're not following Steely's advice.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Biden has won precisely because he is a sane individual who can reach across the aisle.

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Sure, or Biden has won because tens of thousands of Republicans and leaners in key states voted for Jo Jorgensen, while Howie Hawkins didn't manage to get on the ballot in Nevada and Georgia. Or because he's a regular, old, white and very familiar man who talks like a normal person. Or because he ran against Trump. There are a lot of competing narratives, and none of them will be particularly compelling until the dust has settled and there's some good scholarship on the subject.

BREAKING: R's back on their bullshit:

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Why is it bullshit for a Republican Senator to be concerned about his priorities?

Incidentally that kind of confirms he voted for Biden.

The better question is: Can the Republican Party survive if they continue to let conservatism be defined by cultists who push crazy conspiracy theories?

70 million + people voted for Trump this year; more votes than he got in 2016. And the GOP did pretty well overall, even with Trump at the top of the ticket and head of the Republican Party. There's a huge gap between ideology and policy -- and party affiliation -- that I don't really understand.

I have a hunch our political machinery is flailing/failing because it's dominated by just two political parties. And the Republican Party is better at propaganda, even turning the Press into the Enemy of the People that would make Putin proud, see Fox News. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

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Trump managed to make Mitch and Scott Walker appear sensible. *Facepalm*

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Originally Posted by GGT

The better question is: Can the Republican Party survive if they continue to let conservatism be defined by cultists who push crazy conspiracy theories?

70 million + people voted for Trump this year; more votes than he got in 2016. And the GOP did pretty well overall, even with Trump at the top of the ticket and head of the Republican Party. There's a huge gap between ideology and policy -- and party affiliation -- that I don't really understand.

I have a hunch our political machinery is flailing/failing because it's dominated by just two political parties. And the Republican Party is better at propaganda, even turning the Press into the Enemy of the People that would make Putin proud, see Fox News. :rolleyes:

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The left controls the educational apparatus, most media outlets and has a clear bias when it comes to moderating social media. Imagine if the left had none of that. It has always been a stacked deck and you think Republicans are better at propaganda? Oh boy.

Lindsey Graham is an opportunist and a hypocrite: the joke is on the (R) party that still considers him a leader. :picard:

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Originally Posted by Aimless

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Not sure what point you're trying to prove. Sen Graham sold his soul years ago, it's a shame Harrison didn't beat him.

My point that your response doesn't address is they're not.all alike.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

The left controls the educational apparatus, most media outlets and has a clear bias when it comes to moderating social media. Imagine if the left had none of that. It has always been a stacked deck and you think Republicans are better at propaganda? Oh boy.

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The alt-right propaganda has convinced you that lib'ruls are running a DEEP STATE cabal that encompasses public education, journalism/news, and all of social media, so yeah -- they're better at propaganda. They're so good at it you don't even realize they're exploiting your *Cognitive Dissonance*. :donkey:

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Originally Posted by GGT

The alt-right propaganda has convinced you that lib'ruls are running a DEEP STATE cabal that encompasses public education, journalism/news, and all of social media, so yeah -- they're better at propaganda. They're so good at it you don't even realize they're exploiting your *Cognitive Dissonance*. :donkey:

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How would you assess if someone is right or left leaning? Perhaps we check what % of the profession votes a certain way? Their party affiliation? Who they donate money to? Let's pick a metric and tackle university professors and journalists and lets see what side of the political aisle most are on.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

How would you assess if someone is right or left leaning? Perhaps we check what % of the profession votes a certain way? Their party affiliation? Who they donate money to? Let's pick a metric and tackle university professors and journalists and lets see what side of the political aisle most are on.

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Nope. Not gonna play your troll game. Go demonize educated professionals in the bubbles and echo chambers that support your confirmation bias, because it won't work here. Duh. :donkey:

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

How would you assess if someone is right or left leaning? Perhaps we check what % of the profession votes a certain way? Their party affiliation? Who they donate money to? Let's pick a metric and tackle university professors and journalists and lets see what side of the political aisle most are on.

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Just stop.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Not sure what point you're trying to prove. Sen Graham sold his soul years ago, it's a shame Harrison didn't beat him.

My point that your response doesn't address is they're not.all alike.

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McConnell hasn't acknowledged Biden's victory.

Rubio is casting doubt on the election's validity and parroting the same talking points as Graham, Giuliani etc. re. it being up to the courts rather than the media.

Portman could only bring himself to say something insipid about how legal votes should be counted.

Mike Lee implied that the vote counting process might not be transparent enough to let Americans trust it.

Huckabee is parroting the same kind of talking points as Rubio.

Fully half of the people on your list of Republicans who had supposedly criticized Trump—or opposed him on this issue—have actually decided to toe the party line. So have the party and some of the most influential conservatives in Congress. They're not all alike, but most of them are very similar on this particular issue.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

The left controls the educational apparatus, most media outlets and has a clear bias when it comes to moderating social media. Imagine if the left had none of that. It has always been a stacked deck and you think Republicans are better at propaganda? Oh boy.

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Right-wing nutjobs control pretty much all local media, the most influential cable "news" outlet, and most US news-like material and activity on social media, but sure.

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Originally Posted by GGT

The better question is: Can the Republican Party survive if they continue to let conservatism be defined by cultists who push crazy conspiracy theories?

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No. The GOP has (way later than it should have) started flirting with populism. It went "bread and circuses" during Bush Jr.s administration and went more and more in on populism in the subsequent election cycles. But they don't know how to use it or mitigate its pernicious negative sides. They either need to start learning, cut it out and turn back the clock, or they're going to be riding towards another collapse as the opposition party as happened before with the disintegration of the Federalists and then the Whigs.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

McConnell hasn't acknowledged Biden's victory.

Rubio is casting doubt on the election's validity and parroting the same talking points as Graham, Giuliani etc. re. it being up to the courts rather than the media.

Portman could only bring himself to say something insipid about how legal votes should be counted.

Mike Lee implied that the vote counting process might not be transparent enough to let Americans trust it.

Huckabee is parroting the same kind of talking points as Rubio.

Fully half of the people on your list of Republicans who had supposedly criticized Trump—or opposed him on this issue—have actually decided to toe the party line. So have the party and some of the most influential conservatives in Congress. They're not all alike, but most of them are very similar on this particular issue.

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Yeah why should they just because the media called a state? You do realize there is no relevancy anywhere in our law that says AP/CNN/FOX whatever has any say in things. Bottom line is that people have brought forward challenges to the voting process due to some irregularities. At the end of the day those who won the election should clearly welcome it as if there is a detailed, transparent and complete review of all votes tallied and how it will put to rest any claims of illegal election tampering. Right?

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Yeah why should they just because the media called a state? You do realize there is no relevancy anywhere in our law that says AP/CNN/FOX whatever has any say in things. Bottom line is that people have brought forward challenges to the voting process due to some irregularities. At the end of the day those who won the election should clearly welcome it as if there is a detailed, transparent and complete review of all votes tallied and how it will put to rest any claims of illegal election tampering. Right?

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Legal systems rest as much on respected custom as on written rules. This is especially true for common law jurisdictions. Unlike what you believe the system can be broken if, by ignoring custom, you forget that it rests on the willingness of the majority to accept that the interests of the minority should not be trampled on. A willingness which is not the same as the majority being willing to constantly have its rights trampled on.

Rubbing their noses into the fact that the rules can be played on a regular basis against them may actually turn them against the rules. Which is the moment that you have a problem.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Classy from Buttigieg. Most of the Dem leadership seem very classy. Glad they're not following Steely's advice.

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Why bother when I see them posting links to petitions demanding a new election?

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Legal systems rest as much on respected custom as on written rules. This is especially true for common law jurisdictions. Unlike what you believe the system can be broken if, by ignoring custom, you forget that it rests on the willingness of the majority to accept that the interests of the minority should not be trampled on. A willingness which is not the same as the majority being willing to constantly have its rights trampled on.

Rubbing their noses into the fact that the rules can be played on a regular basis against them may actually turn them against the rules. Which is the moment that you have a problem.

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This is a strange perspective. In what possible way is anyone (outside of any potentially breaking election laws) harmed by Republicans asking for recounts, investigation and letting the courts make a determination before throwing in the towel? We aren't even in December and December 8th is the day of decision so to speak when everything needs to be resolved.

I want to again say I think Biden will be president. I also think shenanigans took place in a few places including Nevada. Was it enough to change the outcome in the state? Maybe not but surely we would want every legal vote to be counted and every illegal vote not be counted and get to as an exact of a final count as possible.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

This is a strange perspective. In what possible way is anyone (outside of any potentially breaking election laws) harmed by Republicans asking for recounts, investigation and letting the courts make a determination before throwing in the towel? We aren't even in December and December 8th is the day of decision so to speak when everything needs to be resolved.

I want to again say I think Biden will be president. I also think shenanigans took place in a few places including Nevada. Was it enough to change the outcome in the state? Maybe not but surely we would want every legal vote to be counted and every illegal vote not be counted and get to as an exact of a final count as possible.

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Every single case thus far has been complete and utter BS. If there was real evidence, it would be before the courts right now. Is it possible a few hundred mistakes were made across the entire country? Sure. But that's the case every election. Incidentally, there's no reason to think even those ballots mainly benefited Democrats. Regardless, no one believes you or any other Republican is making these arguments in good faith. It would help if top Republican officials weren't shouting "fraud" at the top of their lungs without bothering to provide any details.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

This is a strange perspective. In what possible way is anyone (outside of any potentially breaking election laws) harmed by Republicans asking for recounts, investigation and letting the courts make a determination before throwing in the towel? We aren't even in December and December 8th is the day of decision so to speak when everything needs to be resolved.

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Who is expected to pay for a recount? And since you've already admitted a recount won't change the outcome, what's the actual likelihood of that person paying given his track record of being a deadbeat?

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Who is expected to pay for a recount? And since you've already admitted a recount won't change the outcome, what's the actual likelihood of that person paying given his track record of being a deadbeat?

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You are going to quibble about the cost of a recount after the Russia hoax that turned out to be so weak that the Democratically controlled House didn't impeach him over it? lol

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

This is a strange perspective. In what possible way is anyone (outside of any potentially breaking election laws) harmed by Republicans asking for recounts, investigation and letting the courts make a determination before throwing in the towel? We aren't even in December and December 8th is the day of decision so to speak when everything needs to be resolved.

I want to again say I think Biden will be president. I also think shenanigans took place in a few places including Nevada. Was it enough to change the outcome in the state? Maybe not but surely we would want every legal vote to be counted and every illegal vote not be counted and get to as an exact of a final count as possible.

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You know that this is rubbish. This election was very obviously not rigged. The same people who oversaw the election of Biden oversaw the other elections that are going to limit his powers.

You may think that you can win by trolling the system to pieces, but the simple arithmetic is that you belong to a minority that has exerted an inordinate amount of influence.

Electing your president was never won over contesting every single vote. Not even in 2000.

Breaking the system that protects you would be the silliest thing that you could do.

So, just stop. There is nothing to be won.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

You know that this is rubbish. This election was very obviously not rigged. The same people who oversaw the election of Biden oversaw the other elections that are going to limit his powers.

You may think that you can win by trolling the system to pieces, but the simple arithmetic is that you belong to a minority that has exerted an inordinate amount of influence.

Electing your president was never won over contesting every single vote. Not even in 2000.

Breaking the system that protects you would be the silliest thing that you could do.

So, just stop. There is nothing to be won.

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Do you think *any* voter fraud took place in the 2020 election?

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

The left controls the educational apparatus, most media outlets and has a clear bias when it comes to moderating social media.

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That's because education and journalism both deal with facts, and reality has a liberal bias. You're right that you guys live in a world of alternate facts.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Do you think *any* voter fraud took place in the 2020 election?

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Oh yeah. But you brushed that off as: "Lol, some voter suppression" Fact is, you have turned a blind eye to all Republican shenanigans before the election which was in plain sight, and now act as if you want a fair election. You don't.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Do you think *any* voter fraud took place in the 2020 election?

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Not more or less than in the 2000 elections. Or any recent election in the USA for that matter.

Not to mention that simple logic tells me that you don't rig an election so that your guy gets elected but has to compromise with the opposition.

Just stop it.

Not to mention that most, if not all of the isolated incidents of voter fraud found so far.. tend to be from Trump supporters. And that's without considering the ballots that the USPS manages to lose, or process too slowly, as fraud. Or voters being purged when they shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Yeah why should they just because the media called a state? You do realize there is no relevancy anywhere in our law that says AP/CNN/FOX whatever has any say in things. Bottom line is that people have brought forward challenges to the voting process due to some irregularities. At the end of the day those who won the election should clearly welcome it as if there is a detailed, transparent and complete review of all votes tallied and how it will put to rest any claims of illegal election tampering. Right?

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

This is a strange perspective. In what possible way is anyone (outside of any potentially breaking election laws) harmed by Republicans asking for recounts, investigation and letting the courts make a determination before throwing in the towel? We aren't even in December and December 8th is the day of decision so to speak when everything needs to be resolved.

I want to again say I think Biden will be president. I also think shenanigans took place in a few places including Nevada. Was it enough to change the outcome in the state? Maybe not but surely we would want every legal vote to be counted and every illegal vote not be counted and get to as an exact of a final count as possible.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

You are going to quibble about the cost of a recount after the Russia hoax that turned out to be so weak that the Democratically controlled House didn't impeach him over it? lol

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Just so we're clear, you're using the 2016 election that was conceded by Clinton despite the fact of Russian interference as an argument for Trump & Co. not conceding the 2020 election? And you're using the Russia investigation that was predicated on unanimous assessments of all intelligence agencies—resulting in a large number of indictments, even of people close to the President and his campaign, with overwhelming evidence not only of foreign interference but also of obstruction of justice on the part of the president himself—as an argument for a recount where there is no basis for believing that a recount would change anything?

Mate, you're so fucking Q-addled that it's not even funny. It's just sad. The harm is that this is making a third of Americans even dumber than they already are—even more ripe for exploitation—and weakening the legitimacy of your govt. at a time when it is most needed. All because you dumbasses can't come to terms with the fact that you aren't viable in a democracy.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

This is a strange perspective. In what possible way is anyone (outside of any potentially breaking election laws) harmed by Republicans asking for recounts, investigation and letting the courts make a determination before throwing in the towel? We aren't even in December and December 8th is the day of decision so to speak when everything needs to be resolved.

I want to again say I think Biden will be president. I also think shenanigans took place in a few places including Nevada. Was it enough to change the outcome in the state? Maybe not but surely we would want every legal vote to be counted and every illegal vote not be counted and get to as an exact of a final count as possible.

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Nobody is harmed directly by recounts and/or lawsuits.

What is harmful is the president, and plenty of other politicians, delegitimizing the entire electrion process by shouting that it is a fraud. Not that there may be some fraud: but that there is fraud, and the election is stolen. Without backing up with facts, or winning any lawsuits so far. That does a lot of harm to your country. A speech as, say, McCain did when he conceded brought the country (at least a little) together. Shouting that everything is a fraud, official results cannot be trusted, and you are winning while you are actually losing just damages your country.

In short, it's anti-American.

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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust

In short, it's anti-American.

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It is anti-American and it is anti-democratic. Not to mention self-defeating, because you make the self-restraining majority wonder why they put up with this lopsided shit anyway. Regardless what happened in the swing states, the fact of the matter is that more Americans want Trump gone than there are Americans who want him to stay. They want him gone so much that they got this outcome in a system that puts them at a severe disadvantage.

Like I said, the minority can troll the system to death. But once they have succeeded bringing it down they will find, to their surprise, that they also killed their protection.

Not unlike Brexiteers learning that with EU membership a lot of the advantages also are disappearing.