So... Boris Johnson has it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
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So... Boris Johnson has it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
I couldn't give a shit what the existing manufacturers think. The NHS had 5000 which is enough normally but they realised they would need much more so put a public address out asking any manufacturer who could do it to get in touch. A week ago they announced they'd gone from 5000 to 12000 and a few days ago Neil Ferguson wrote that with the decisions made he thinks that the NHS can cope now. If any company doesn't like that the deals went to whoever could supply them the quickest then tough shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Just let it rip was NEVER policy so you're either stupid or lying or both.
Yes the Prime Minister and in last few minutes Health Secretary Hancock have both said they've tested positive.
Wowsers. Man, why couldn't it be Trump and Pence? Not sure about his (Boris) health, but Prince Charles, yikes, 71 is not a good age to have this.
Boris is overweight but otherwise thought to be healthy. Of much greater concern for him will be his pregnant fiancee. Leader of the Opposition Corbyn refused to go into self isolation (he's 70) and was opposite Johnson in the Commons just a few days ago.
Officially, no. In reality, yes, they're basically pursuing a strategy of mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
My impression is that they've realized too late that the strategy they (like the UK and a few others) initially settled on has led to an uncontrolled epidemic in major cities, esp. in Stockholm, and they've given up on containment both there and elsewhere. Despite extremely small (= nonexistant or negative) margins during normal conditions, there is a lot of potential for stepping up capacity during a crisis. We have a relatively high number of doctors and nurses per capita, although they're not necessarily where they need to be (would have to be requisitioned/reassigned). We have excess ventilator capacity and can convert wards and rooms on short notice; some hospitals - including my own - have tripled their intensive care capacity by converting facilities and using equipment freed up from canceling elective surgeries. But the situation in several cities is already close to unmanageable, and will get considerably worse over the coming weeks; hospitals in those cities are fucked. Much of the rest of Sweden is extremely sparsely populated, and social distancing measures etc. may help mitigate the situation in those parts. Hospitals in those regions are probably going to have to help shore up hospitals in harder-hit areas.Quote:
Do they really believe they are able to keep the virus from overwhelming the health care system? Does Sweden really have such a redundancy in the system?
Their justifications are not persuasive, to say the least. There's a article of faith deeply cherished by Swedes that Sweden is "different", that lessons applicable to other countries are simply not applicable to Sweden.Quote:
Do they really think in the Netherlands people live in multi-generational households?
One of Sweden's greatest strengths is also one of its greatest weaknesses: immense public and political trust in institutions/agencies. Another such mixed blessing is the high proportion of people in positions of authority who have basic military training; there's a great deal of respect for chain of command. In many respects, this is a good thing - it prevents panic, and it enables effective responses to problems. The problem is, under extraordinary circumstances, it means people stop thinking. It places a great deal of responsibility on the agencies responding to an emergency/crisis, as well as on politicians. In this case, they appear to have failed to respond in an appropriate manner, and now they're just trying to keep their heads above water. I think Sweden may be somewhat unique in that agencies responsible for a particular area under normal circumstances are also responsible for crisis response involving those areas, and we've seen before (eg. during the Estonia disaster, the tsunami) that this leads to predictable and avoidable problems with crisis response. There are already calls for instituting a covid19 response commission to learn lessons from our mistakes now, in anticipation of the next wave; at the very least, we can get some explanation for why govt. epidemiologists saw fit to deviate from international recs.Quote:
Jesus Fucking Christ. It's like I hear the 'specialists' from the agencies that advise out government all over again. The people who first were convinced there was no chance the virus would reach us, forgot to stock up on testing material, did nothing to make the health care system more robust and THEN advised against cancelling Carnaval in the south of the country. Now, you guess, which part of the country has hospitals operating on 'black status' and has to send patients to hospitals in other regions to avoid triage of the lethal kind?
Regions that will only have the capacity to recieve patients of course untill the virus has a party there because too many people still think it's kind of a flu that doesn't really threathen them.
link
At my hospital, we have been specifically told not to get "creative", and to not do things we've been told not to do. As a consequence, people have been admitting covid19 pts to wards full of vulnerable patients, and staff have been exposed, for up to a day. At some other hospitals - where representatives of the official response apparatus is less present - they've decided to disregard official Swedish guidance and instead learn from other countries. I am seeing a disappointing side to some people for whose leadership and expertise I have otherwise had a great deal of respect, but, at the end of the day, I can currently only take responsibility for myself and for those working under my guidance on any given shift.
All I can say is that I wish you good luck and a lot of strength in the period ahead. I hope you can keep yourself and your loved ones safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Meanwhile in the third world this is deadly to teenagers without healthcare.
Twitter Link
:sour:Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Shameful. The Conservative Paradise, brain child of the Reagan Revolution. Money > people.
“I’m shaking hands continuously. I was at a hospital the other night where I think there were actually a few coronavirus patients and I shook hands with everybody, you’ll be pleased to know. I continue to shake hands." - Boris Johnson, 3rd MarchQuote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Morons, all the way to the top
Note the date.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
That was when the CSO was saying shaking hands was not significant, washing them is. They changed the medical advice and stopped shaking hands two days later.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...-environmental
'Holy Crap This Is Insane': Citing Coronavirus Pandemic, EPA Indefinitely Suspends Environmental Rules
and the power grabs have begun.
which ignored the previous 3-4 months of countries already dealing with this. Like I said, morons all the way up.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
The epidemic wasn't even on the radar 4 months before then.
Do you think it's better for our leaders to follow their chief medical advisors expertise or to make it up themselves and sideline their scientists?
Do you think if the scientists or politicians make a mistake they should stick with it as they don't want to be embarrassed or to change their advice.
Randblade trying to make it out like the official advice was "Hand shaking is fine, actually. Good even, you should totally do it" rather than that the NHS hadn't issued any official advice on hand shaking by that stage is classic Randblade.
Actually the chief science boffins did give handshake advice at the same press conference as Boris spoke at. They were of course also stood next to him and said there wasn't evidence handshakes spread the disease and that the priority was hand washing.
So if you mean classic Randblade is being accurate and giving the full facts then yes I will take that.
A couple of days later the medical advice changed and Johnson rather than worrying about the fact it was a U-turn did the right thing and went with the NEW advice.
Thanks, you too. My friends at other hospitals and in other cities/countries are in much more precarious situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Mate, no. With a dangerous droplet-borne viral pandemic developing, you shouldn't need your CSO to tell you whether or not you should shake hands with a few dozen people a day—you should decide not to, on your own, and if your CSO encourages you to shake hands, you should question their judgement and disregard their recommendation wrt handshaking. The cost of not shaking hands is, in this context, essentially zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Source?Quote:
Actually the chief science boffins did give handshake advice at the same press conference as Boris spoke at. They were of course also stood next to him and said there wasn't evidence handshakes spread the disease and that the priority was hand washing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that advice was about shaking hands in general (since infections were still rare back then) not shaking hands in a hospital with infected people.
You're asking for a source on your own claim?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
editedQuote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Wait, are you referring to the same press briefing that you said was held on the 8th, and which you used to completely misrepresent the state of the evidence and baselessly attack Stewart? It sounds like you're talking about that briefing. Classic RBQuote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
County activated Emergency Operations last night. I luckily wasn't called in, but those that were are being trained on logistics and donation processing. Can't tell if thats because we only know how to prep for hurricanes, or if they are planning for the next several weeks to get so bad that the staging locations are going to become tent cities of the ill, dying or dead.
Naw, my General Practitioner refuses to shake hands for years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flixy
Also, yes, shaking hands in a hospital is bloody moronic.
The video of the full press conference in which that quote was made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
A press conference was held on the 8th and I watched it live and correctly represented it. When you asked for a source I Googled for a video of that press conference and it was by the AP News Agency and labelled as the 8th. You said that the AP had posted the previous press conference despite it being labelled the 8th by them. If the AP have mislabelled or posted the wrong video that's on them. Find the press conference for the 8th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Boris Johnson said everyone should lick doorknobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Source: the video in which Boris Johnson said everyone should lick doorknobs.
Classic RB :bored: It was literally labeled the 3rd, right in the description. There are quotes and transcripts that confirm it was held on the 3rd. The position tenuously presented at that event was contradicted two days later during a hearing before the Commons, so if you believe you heard something else on the 8th, please provide direct quotes from that conference that support your claims.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
https://www.ft.com/content/f9051f66-...e-3980225ae542
They chose a bad time to be so... English.
Why? Your procurement process is behind ours. Procurement options for ventilators were it seems received by the EU yesterday and are being reviewed now. UK procurement options were already received and reviewed and orders have already been placed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
There's a time and a place for bureaucracy to drive down prices through collective purchasing. This isn't it, time is of the essence and our orders are in progress already.
Shaking hands doesn't transmit the virus but because people don't realize how often they touch their face, mouth, eyes etc...
You’re gonna explain the sky is up any time soon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Did you read their article? What you ordered is a promise to build 10.000 ventilators of which the model still has to de designed and approved for medical use. We are buying off the shelf.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
This is not the time to start an urgent procurement with a circle jerk of big ego’s.
That's not unique to Sweden. Looks like the UK felt the same way with their late response and mitigation, and Mexico is reportedly telling poor people they can't get infected. And don't forget that US Exceptionalism is alive and well, with low population states believing they're 'immune' somehow, and even the Executive and Legislative branches aren't practicing social distancing properly. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Take care of yourself and your family, be super cautious, and hope you don't run out of PPE -- or have to wear garbage bags as gowns, or home-sewn masks. :eek:
Hi, Bitter! Good to see you again and glad you cancelled your NO trip. :D Yeah, it's going to get bad. They're converting a convention center into a massive field hospital. (Brings back bad memories of Katrina.)
Contact tracing is a nightmare due to travel/tourism. Between spring break and Mardi Gras and vacationers, it's no wonder there's global spread. I'm wondering why airports and cruise lines are still operating....:confused:
That's like saying coughing or sneezing doesn't transmit the virus but because people don't realize how often they breathe... :haha: :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Don't call 911 in an emergency. Have the presence of mind to call 311 during your *health* emergency.
Maybe that's just in New York. There's another number to call while on the PA turnpike, 511? Who knows, maybe your smart phone knows the difference b/w a heart attack and a flat tire? :picard:
If that is what the article says the article is wrong. We are buying off the shelf AND buying newly created ones from other manufacturers. Because the issue is we need more than existing manufacturers can rapidly create.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Oh and the existing manufacturers are sharing their IP in order to allow the new manufacturers to get them created quickly.
Rand, there's no shame in admitting that your government was slow to respond, or that mitigation efforts were ill-conceived. Practically every nation has handled this pandemic poorly <that's the real shame> so you don't need to try so hard to defend England's efforts. ;)
I'm saying what I believe. There's no nationalism involved. Hazir made a mistake was I not supposed to correct it?
You might "think or believe" that it was right to delay school closures, so parents could get things in order, but that's a political decision, and you're wrong. Viruses don't operate on the same timeline, they don't "think" and they don't care what humans "believe".Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
It's hard to distinguish your "beliefs" from nationalism, when it sounds more like defending England over anything else, even science. That's pretty Trumpian, but also fits the Brexit attitude. :bulb:
This isn't really about ventilators.
The real world facts match my beliefs. Nations that prematurely shut down schools without thinking through the consequences spread the virus far and wide. Nations that smartly closed down schools after shutting down workplaces have done better. We're in the latter group. I never said shutting down schools shouldn't happen, I gave my concerns with shutting down schools (that not-at-risk children would be sent to highly-at-risk grandparents first and foremost) and those concerns were dealt with. Italy didn't deal with those concerns they just shut the schools and the result was a catastrophe.
You need to ask yourself what the purpose of shutting down schools is. If its to ensure children stay at home then you need to shut down parents workplaces first. If its to make it look like you're doing something then that isn't scientific.
Brexit's got nothing to do with it, science and intelligence does. There is no scientific or intelligent reason to send the children of key workers to be looked after by their very vulnerable grandparents or great grandparents. That way leads to disaster. Name one western country that prematurely shut down schools which is coping better and explain why.
The purpose is to stop the spread of a *novel* virus that no human being has ever seen, or has immunity to, but is deadlier than seasonal flu, for which there's no vaccine or therapeutic regimen, but no one knows with certainty how it's spread within human communities. I'm fine with shutting schools. And restaurants and bars. And even airports and cruise ships.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
The biggest *carriers* were the millions of people traveling on planes, trains and cruise ships crossing between countries (and state lines), who ended up at music venues, amusement parks, pubs, bars, restaurants and tourist traps. That includes community transmission. The UK doesn't have special immunity. :donkey: