Just because it has been around for ages doesn't mean it's right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
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Just because it has been around for ages doesn't mean it's right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Seems like it's a done deal; they're expecting Brown to announce he's stepping down as PM.
Yep, he's announcing it right now, also resigning as leader of Labour effective immediately.
Sure, I might do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
If I was a fucking idiot.
Yeah, a system where parties can win power by tailoring their policies and campaigning to minorities of the electorate while the majority of the population which lives in safe seats gets no say in the outcome is completely democratic. The problem is the Lib-Dems for not adapting, not the fact that it effectively disenfranchises so much of the population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Next you'll be arguing that people who want a say in how the country is run should move to marginals.
You can't change things, you just have to accept everything and play the hand you're dealt. Low-key's a political realist, see
That's how politics work. Just because the Lib Dems fail at it doesn't make them some kind of righteous martyrs. :bored:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
"Art. 149 Zusammensetzung und Wahl des NationalratesQuote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
1 Der Nationalrat besteht aus 200 Abgeordneten des Volkes.
2 Die Abgeordneten werden vom Volk in direkter Wahl nach dem Grundsatz des
Proporzes bestimmt. Alle vier Jahre findet eine Gesamterneuerung statt.
3 Jeder Kanton bildet einen Wahlkreis.
4 Die Sitze werden nach der Bevölkerungszahl auf die Kantone verteilt. Jeder Kanton
hat mindestens einen Sitz."
From the Swiss Constitution.
It states that the Nationalrat (representative chamber) has to be voted directly and proportional. Each canton is one voting district and each canton has at least one seat.
Is that it? It's that your fucking argument? "It works that way because that's the way it works?" Fuck off and come back when you come up with something not embarrassingly stupid to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
yeah, that's how it works, end of the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
No, politics works by politicians striving to work toward the common good, and doing this is what gets them elected. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Quote:
Fuck off and come back when you come up with something not embarrassingly stupid to say.
Get back to me when you return to the real world and not the imaginary world that you live in (or pretend that the Lib Dems live in). If you think any major political party actually has serving the common good as their primary objective or ever will, you're being incredibly delusional.
Loki.
What, exactly, do you think this conversation is about?
About the Lib Dems being truly incompetent in terms of making use of the cards they're dealt and spending a century (including as the Liberals) whining about it. And again, if you think it's because they somehow care about representative the median voter, I have a bridge to sell you.
Right, well, go back and read it again then.
Coincidentally, I want a doughnut for correctly predicting the composition of the new government. :o
The cabinet so far, assuming the Lib-Dems accept the deal (which they have to be insane not to at this point):
Prime Minister: Dave Cameron
Deputy Prime Minister: Nick Clegg
Foreign Minister: William Hague
Chancellor of the Exchequer: George Osborne
Defense: Liam Fox
Heath: Andrew Lansley
This is going to be pretty funnyfourfive years.
Well, then it looks like your best option is to take a page from the Americans and start killing government officials for imposing an "unfair" "tyranny" on you. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
Or complain about it impotently.
Both approaches have their charms, I suppose, but only one of them is likely to have any effect. :p
Or I could vote in the AV referendum.
In a country where pretty much everything is dealth with in referenda the difference between a constitution and a normal law is largely irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
And even so, you've got the Bundesgesetz über die politischen Rechte that really rules elections.
Good luck with that plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
Feel free to report back on how that works out for you, or just wait patiently for me to mock you when it doesn't change anything at all. :p
I'm sure I will.
Labour and the Conservatives may not fancy a change (any change), but I am pretty certain that voters who have seen their vote gone to waste for election after election because of their domicile see that entirely different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
I personally think by the way that the most important short-term success for the LibDems has to be the fixed term Parliament.
The system that's just as distorting as the current one? :noob:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
More like 'the system that gives you the election results a week after the polls close'. At least, that's what it sounds like to me. The advantage of this system should be that you no longer have plurality representing MP's ?
This coalition could be awesome. Lib Dms have had their Euro policies curtailed, and Tories have had their inheritance tax/rich people benefits subdued. As well as new policies wrt to trident, public spending etc etc. 2 parties with all of their shittiest policies duped. Fucking love it. Sure, the whole thing might fall apart after a month, but it's a great experiment, and a referendum on AV would be the icing on the cake, even if it all goes to shit.
Afaik, you essentially vote for a secondary candidate in the general election, right? If none of the candidates get 50% of the vote, then the lowest % cand is eliminated and anyone who voted for that person gets their secondary vote used instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
I think it will benefit lib dems. Who would ever put say, Tory as 1st choice and labour second? They're so different that it will polarise more votes towards lib dems
It's a stepping stone to PR. The numbers for AV had it been used at this election would have been Tories ~280 Lab ~250 Libs: 80. A similar result at the next election would give them more power in coalition talks and therefore a better chance of getting a deal on PR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
So you support it for purely political reasons? I thought you didn't like politics as usual. :bored;
Apparently this is the full list of agreements:
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Economic measures for an agreement which has deficit reduction "at its heart"
• £6b in year cuts in non frontline services subject to the advice from the treasury and the bank of england (Tory)
• Scrapping of national insurance rises (Tory)
• A substantial increase in the personal tax allowance from April 2011 with a focus on low and middle income earners, with a "long term goal" of a £10,000 personal tax allowance. There is no a timetable for this, but there is a promise to make further real term steps each year towards this objective. This is described as a "funded increase". It will be funded by taking the money the Tories had planned to use to increase the employee threshold for national insurance, and by an increase in capital gains tax for non business assets to bring it closer to the level of income tax.
• Marriage tax allowance. The liberal democrats have agreed to abstain on this, which gives the Tories a "real chance" of getting that through.
Lib Dem pledges that have been dropped
• Tax relief for higher rate pensioners will not be pursued
• Mansion tax
Tory pledges that have been dropped
• Raising the threshold on inheritance tax which is described as "unlikely to be achieved in this parliament".
Lib Dems priorities that have been secured
• Referendum to bring in some form of alternative vote system. Coalition members will be subject to three-line whip to force the legislation for a referendum through, but they will be free to campaign against the reforms before referendum.
• New pupil premium to be introduced, steering more funding to schools for every child they take from poor homes. Both parties back this policy, but the Lib Dem version attaches more money to it.
• Reducing the tax burden on low earners. This could go some way towards the Lib Dem aim of lifting tax threshold to £10,000.
• A wholly or mainly elected house of Lords.
• More equal constituency sizes
• Fixed term parliaments, including this one. The next general election will be held on the first Thursday of May 2015. Legislation will mean such agreements can only be broken by an enhanced majority of the House of Commons.
Tory priorities that have been secured
• A cap on immigration and an end to child detention immigration controls (the latter was a Lib Dem proposal).
• Welfare reform programme to be implemented in full.
• School reform programme providing all schools are held accountable.
• A commitment to maintaining Britain's nuclear deterrent. Renewal of Trident will be scrutinised to ensure value for money. Liberal Democrats will be free to continue the case for alternatives.
• The government will make no proposals to join the euro.
• No proposals to transfer new powers to the European Union.
• A referendum lock will ensure that any proposal to transfer new powers must by law be put to a referendum.
Areas that were already in agreement will see a major programme of civil liberties
• A great repeal or freedom bill to scrap the ID card scheme and the national identity register and the next generation of biometric passports
• Extending the scope of the Freedom of Information bill to provide greater transparency
* Adopt protections of the Scottish model for the DNA database
• Protecting trial by jury
• Reviewing libel laws to protect freedom of speech
• Further regulation of CCTV and other items
• Measures to boost economy in key areas such as low-carbon industries and investment in infrastructure. A green investment bank, a smart grid, retention of energy performance certificates while scrapping home information packs.
Areas of opt outs for either party
• Lib Dems will be free to maintain their opposition to nuclear power while permitting the government to put forward the national planning statement for ratification by parliament so that new nuclear construction becomes possible.
Banking reform
• A banking levy will be introduced.
• Bonuses will be tackled.
• A "more competitive banking industry".
• More credit to flow to businesses. The proposals of the respective parties will be looked at before deciding which is the better one.
• An independent commission will be set up to consider Lib Dem proposals to separate retail and investment banking and the Tories' proposals for a quasi separation. An interim report will be published within a year.
• The Bank of England could be given control of macro prudential regulation and oversight of micro prudential regulation under proposals to be put forward.
Man, reading that list, i wish id voted tory. Except for that hard line against europe, which ive always disagreed with.
The lib dems without their euro policies or their social welfare policies (old people tax cuts, mansion tax, $10000 tax threshold) seem just what i always suspected them of being - a nothing party of idealists.
Ah well, looks like ill have a chance to rectify things before the year is out.
Funny, im seeing a lot of people on my facebook talking about this being "the darkest days in britain since thatcher". What the fuck do they know about how bad it was under thatcher? The only people ive ever spoken to about that who show any real hatred are older workmates who were in unions at the time. Certainly no one my age was especially affected directly by her. Except for losing our free milk, of course...