Brexit Begins

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Please read posts you reply to before replying to them, in this case this part:



It's obvious you did not read that, or you wouldn't have raised a stupid objection that barely addresses the least important part of the post you had purportedly read before replying. Allow me to reiterate:



Let me explain why you're being stupid: Moody's has actually given a thorough account of their rationale for the UK's present (downgraded) rating—just as it has done in previous reports—and that account explicitly highlights Brexit-related failures and political-institutional dysfunction as the most important reasons. You first tried to blame the pandemic, and now you're trying to blame Gordon Brown—but all your frantic scrabbling for purchase is in vain, because the report considers other factors to be more important. The spin you're trying to peddle here—like a moron—is only interesting to someone who hasn't read the report. Eg. someone who goes by the alias RandBlade right here on this very forum.

What you're showing here is a pattern of behavior characterized by laziness, sloppiness—and stupidity. Please just read things properly before responding to them. It would save me a lot of time and energy.

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I did read them properly just because you lie or twist things in your head to mean what you want them to mean does not make them mean what you want them to mean.

In your own chosen quote they literally called what you're claiming to be "the most important" factor "the third factor". I quoted the first and second factors ...

I can understand why someone would not like to be held accountable for his contributions to the worst example of national self-harm in this century.

:haha::haha:

What do you find funny about that?

He's laughing because it's not funny—it's a major burden and cost for merchants in other countries who might want to be able to sell small value goods to customers in the UK.

You do realise even pre Brexit non-EU exporters into the EU have to charge VAT don't you? Or the customer is obliged to pay it? So yes exporters into the UK are going to be obliged to pay it just the same. And online marketplaces like Amazon have systems to process that as mentioned in the second bullet point.

Foreign exporters don't get to avoid VAT and have a competitive advantage over domestic businesses.

HMRC is removing the £15 exemption as part of updating its rules but the general principle is consistent.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

You do realise even pre Brexit non-EU exporters into the EU have to charge VAT don't you? Or the customer is obliged to pay it? So yes exporters into the UK are going to be obliged to pay it just the same.

Foreign exporters don't get to avoid VAT and have a competitive advantage over domestic businesses.

HMRC is removing the £15 exemption as part of updating its rules but the general principle is consistent.

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Yes, thank you for acknowledging that many merchants and their customers will have one additional costly layer of red tape to deal with. Previously, merchants did not necessarily have to charge or process VAT themselves—the customer could pay it themselves, upon/prior to receipt. And, of course, millions of consignments were exempt.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Yes, thank you for acknowledging that many merchants and their customers will have one additional costly layer of red tape to deal with. Previously, merchants did not necessarily have to charge or process VAT themselves—the customer could pay it themselves, upon/prior to receipt. And, of course, millions of consignments were exempt.

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Still not seeing the laughing matter. If you are trading to consumers in the UK then VAT is due.

These reforms are part of a package of reforms to ensure the likes of Amazon pay their fair share of taxes. I'm not seeing why a foreign retailer who trades in the UK using Amazon should be exempt from taxes that retailers here are obliged to pay?

I hope there won't be a deal.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

I hope there won't be a deal.

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You're changing your tune.

I thought you were claiming you were going to write the deal we would simply sign it? Funny that.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

You're changing your tune.

I thought you were claiming you were going to write the deal we would simply sign it? Funny that.

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I feel that we're too soft on you.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Still not seeing the laughing matter. If you are trading to consumers in the UK then VAT is due.

These reforms are part of a package of reforms to ensure the likes of Amazon pay their fair share of taxes. I'm not seeing why a foreign retailer who trades in the UK using Amazon should be exempt from taxes that retailers here are obliged to pay?

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It's not a laughing matter, it's a serious matter. The issue is not that VAT is due, it is that the new rules will place an additional, costly and cumbersome compliance burden on many merchants—and cause cash flow issues for others. The change will be disproportionately harmful to small businesses—eg. in Ireland and NI. It is a little tragicomic that the finalized legislation is will be announced so close to the date when it will begin to apply.

It is not tragicomic, these changes were announced ages ago they aren't just being announced now.

As for the compliance burden it is negligible. If a company is exporting to businesses they're obliged to record the businesses VAT Registration Number and that's it. Hardly burdensome. If they're operating via an OMP the OMP acts to collect the revenue, again hardly burdensome. If they're retailing directly to consumers they need to pay their taxes but so does every business anywhere in the globe. Businesses pay tax, it isn't rocket science.

I'd like to see you cite a single source suggesting this is an issue for NI businesses since NI businesses are already obliged to charge VAT anyway and are dealt with separately these changes aren't for NI.

'Businesses are obligated to pay taxes' is a bear shits in the woods kind of story.

Seems that in little over two months British passports will no longer function at EU automated immigration gates.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

It is not tragicomic, these changes were announced ages ago they aren't just being announced now.

As for the compliance burden it is negligible. If a company is exporting to businesses they're obliged to record the businesses VAT Registration Number and that's it. Hardly burdensome. If they're operating via an OMP the OMP acts to collect the revenue, again hardly burdensome. If they're retailing directly to consumers they need to pay their taxes but so does every business anywhere in the globe. Businesses pay tax, it isn't rocket science.

I'd like to see you cite a single source suggesting this is an issue for NI businesses since NI businesses are already obliged to charge VAT anyway and are dealt with separately these changes aren't for NI.

'Businesses are obligated to pay taxes' is a bear shits in the woods kind of story.

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It's genuinely weird how you keep trying to refute claims nobody has made. There's nothing wrong with requiring a business to pay taxes—although it sucks to make them do it in a way that increases administrative overhead—but there is something very wrong about putting a business in a position where it does not know exactly what it must do to be in compliance with tax laws that will come into force in 2 months. This is especially problematic for businesses involved in trade between RoI and NI, who not only have to parse the confusing new rules but also try to determine how—and if—they should be implemented, depending on whether or not there's a deal.

Meanwhile, the dumbest govt in the west continues to embarrass itself in increasingly farcical ways:

Twitter Link

You're making things up, businesses have been told what to do. Prepare to operate as if we are trading on WTO terms as the baseline from January next year - if there is a deal then that will make things easier not harder but take nothing for granted about that.

And it's so wonderful for business if you have to prepare for two entirely different futures. You can really build a profitable business on that basis. So Nissan should halve its production of cars before the end of the year and miss out on the chance that they actually may be able to compete on the EU market with the cars they could have produced?

Changes happen, businesses cope with that all the time. Get over it already.

A change of government had Corbyn won the election last year would have been a bigger change for businesses than Brexit ever would - doesn't mean that we abolish elections. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Changes happen, businesses cope with that all the time. Get over it already.

A change of government had Corbyn won the election last year would have been a bigger change for businesses than Brexit ever would - doesn't mean that we abolish elections. :rolleyes:

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But as a former business owner yourself, I imagine you would agree that certainty, (or at least some measure of confidence) in what the rules are and will be is enormously helpful when planning your operations.

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

But as a former business owner yourself, I imagine you would agree that certainty, (or at least some measure of confidence) in what the rules are and will be is enormously helpful when planning your operations.

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Oh absolutely of course.

There is no certainty at the minute because negotiations are ongoing. C'est la vie. Sooner there is certainty the better which is why I oppose extending transition beyond December as it would just drag on the uncertainty and prevent compromise being made.

A transition from the transition to an agreed end point after the compromises are made could be a very good idea though.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Oh absolutely of course.

There is no certainty at the minute because negotiations are ongoing. C'est la vie. Sooner there is certainty the better which is why I oppose extending transition beyond December as it would just drag on the uncertainty and prevent compromise being made.

A transition from the transition to an agreed end point after the compromises are made could be a very good idea though.

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And still the Brexitard doesn't understand that for many businesses one of the scenarios is that their business no longer is viable after the end of the year. No matter how well they are doing today.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

And still the Brexitard doesn't understand that for many businesses one of the scenarios is that their business no longer is viable after the end of the year. No matter how well they are doing today.

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Bovine manure.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Bovine manure.

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A no deal means that a british fisher can pretty much forget about selling his catch at a price that makes it worth while to continue fishing. And that's only one example. You mean to tell these people to simply find a different job now that they should prepare for a no deal situation?

No that's scaremongering bullshit. People adapt.

That fisherman can sell to a different market or can sell frozen or can sell domestically or ... Etc

People who want to earn a living adapt better than people like you give them credit for.

'sorry the combination of our ignorant and selfish political project and our own callous indifference in attempting to implement it wrecked your livelihood, I'm sure you'll adapt to these circumstances we made in some vague way'

fuck tories

People's livelihoods won't be wrecked by Brexit though.

fuck off, tory

Stop throwing toys out of your pram.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

People's livelihoods won't be wrecked by Brexit though.

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WTF.

Only a number of weeks now until Project Fear gets revealed to be bollocks Khen.

COVID will do far more disruption than Brexit ever could.