Would you like to abandon the Gregorian calendar for a better alternative?

While as I said I can see an advantage for a 13 month 364-day calendar (as others have), what I see absolutely no advantage to is the proposed 364 day (with random months) calendars. I think it is tackling an issue that doesn't exist.

So things shift by one day of the week each year? Twice on leap years. So what? On a monthly basis things would be proposed to shift much more. On a lunar basis (eg Easter) they still would. Etc - is shifting dates a bad thing?

I would actually say a shifting day of the week is a good thing for one reason only: Birthdays. What day of the week your birthday falls on changes each year. Sometimes it'll be Saturday and you get to enjoy it on the weekend, sometimes its a Monday and you're back at work/school etc ... same with anniversaries etc ... but by standardising what day of the week each date falls under then you'll arbritarily decide that from now on some will always get their birthday on a Saturday, some will always be a Wednesday etc. I view that as unfair and thus a negative. May be a rather odd measurement but given the lack of real advantage (plus significant cost) to such a half-arsed change I'd say the negatives outweigh the pro's.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

We'll never get away from weeks now, and months are still useful for organization, IMO.

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Stardate 263.34 would be cool, though.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Er... Christmas as a national holiday very much is a Western invention.

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Er.. In Russia everithing will be closed the next week.

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Even the holiday itself is of Western origin: it technically started sometime in Europe in the 4th century

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It arguably started much earlier in the Nordic countries.

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Furthermore, even if you were to be pedantic and argue that Christianity is not technically a Western religion, having been founded in (barely) the Middle East, it certainly came to prominence and power in the West in the last 1500 years. To argue anything else is absurd.

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Let's list the 10 countries with the biggest Christian population.

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United States (details) 176,400,000
Brazil (details) 174,700,000
Mexico (details) 105,095,000
Russia (details) 99,775,000
Philippines (details) 90,530,000
Nigeria (details) 76,281,000
Congo, Democratic Republic of (details) 68,558,000
People's Republic of China (details) 66,959,000
Italy (details) 55,070,000
Ethiopia (details) 54,978,000

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In bold is your absurtity.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

This could be a big problem for religions that have a holy day every seventh day (Sabbath, Sunday, Jummah, whatever) would eventually end up having their holy day on Tuesday or whatever, which would be a serious issue.

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Why? I don't see Jewish people changing their sabbath moving to another day than saturday under the present system, which does have leap years, so if there was some real serious religious problem there we would already see it under the present system.

If there is some small religious minority that can't accept logic in counting days, then on their heads it be. But actually, I think 7 days/13 months gets us closer to a calendar that is acceptable worldwide and for most monotheist sensitivities too. We may even get Ramadan to settle down in a month that doesn't lead to the extremes we are seeing over present time (where it is near impossible to stick to it in certain parts of the world).

If you would make the 'filler' days non-days as Rand suggested you would get a logical system that need not get in the way of religious calendars any more than the present less logical system. Basically all you do is taking away shifting the names of months (a little) but that's not really relevant as we all know the real basis for our organisation is the week/year.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

In bold is your absurtity.

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Those are some horrible examples. Russia and Ethiopia are the only bolded countries that didn't gain most of its Christians through conversion by Western colonial interests...

So what? That's tempi passati and has little to do with a suggested calendaric change in the future.

Wig said that Christianity came to prominence in the West in the last 1500 years. You then went and gave examples of countries that only became Christian in the last few hundred years, mostly at the hands of Western states/missionaries.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

Er.. In Russia everithing will be closed the next week.

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Yes, and in other bits of Asia and Africa. I don't suggest that Christmas is solely limited to Europe and America, but neither are Hollywood movies or McDonalds. They're still Western in origin.

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It arguably started much earlier in the Nordic countries.

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Eh? Source? (Regardless, Nordic countries are in, you know, Europe.)

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Let's list the 10 countries with the biggest Christian population.

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Loki addressed much of this absurdity: just like Western colonizers left a hefty legacy of other Western cultural imports, they also left Christianity. I don't even fathom why you're arguing about this.

(For that matter, where the hell did you get those numbers? No way that there are 100 million Christians in Russia unless you use an extremely loose definition. I can't speak to your other numbers, but I know that one is fishy.)

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Why? I don't see Jewish people changing their sabbath moving to another day than saturday under the present system, which does have leap years, so if there was some real serious religious problem there we would already see it under the present system.

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Uh... because leap days currently just add an extra date to the calendar, not a day of the week. RB was suggesting we go from, say, Saturday to Christmas to Sunday (i.e. have Christmas as an extra day interpolated into the calendar). For Jews, Muslims, and some Christians (e.g. 7th day adventists et al) this would be a huge problem, since they have a holy day every 7 days. In the first year, Jummah would move to Thursday, Jewish Sabbath and 7th day adventists would move to Friday, etc.

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If there is some small religious minority that can't accept logic in counting days, then on their heads it be. But actually, I think 7 days/13 months gets us closer to a calendar that is acceptable worldwide and for most monotheist sensitivities too. We may even get Ramadan to settle down in a month that doesn't lead to the extremes we are seeing over present time (where it is near impossible to stick to it in certain parts of the world).

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Hardly, Ramadan won't get fixed from this. The calendar will still be roughly a solar calendar, just with slightly larger fluctuations in each direction due to large corrections in leap years. The Muslim calendar is strictly a lunar calendar and has no correction for the solar calendar, so it won't change unless the Muslim calendar changes (to e.g. the Jewish calendar, which has leap months to make it a lunar-solar calendar).

Wig, a vast majority of non-Muslim Russians do self-identity as Orthodox Christians.

Only vaguely, religious attendance and observance in Russia is absurdly low, likely as a result of three generations under Soviet rule. I've seen the State Department's estimates, too, but the 100 million Christians in Mexico are a hell of a lot more Christian than the 100 million 'Christians' in Russia.

Regardless, I'll concede the point if it ends this absurd discussion earlier. I never thought I'd have to have a serious argument over whether Christmas is a Western cultural export.

That's probably the modern american X-Mess with Santa Claus and red socks you think about. Christmas in general is to the same degree western as the Gregorian calendar itself.

I don't see a problem to replace one so called "western" concept with another. What I don't like is that religous arguments should play a role at all. So better pick another holiday.

Am I the only one who likes the fact his birthday is not on the same weekday every eyar? :p

(directed at eJ, not Flixy)

No! (Although obviously that is also a Western cultural export.) I've very clearly articulated how Christianity in its current form - including Christmas - had its genesis and development in Europe, and was then spread around the world during colonization of the last few centuries. Plenty of things the Western world exported during colonialism are labelled as 'cultural imperialism' now; I think it's fair to argue that making the calendar revolve around Christmas in such a blatant manner would be another example. Please demonstrate to me where this is untrue.

Ugh, I'll reply to your edits as well. First: I agree the Gregorian calendar is a Western invention, no question there. The only reason it's in use, though, is tradition and consistency. It also has no overt religious or political structuring other than two things: some sops to Roman leaders that no one cares about any more, and the year changing at a religiously relevant holiday. Neither really affect anyone, though, and absent a competing system of similarly universal adoption, we'll stick with it. Custom designing a new calendar to make life easier for people who celebrate Christmas is hardly the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Flixy

Am I the only one who likes the fact his birthday is not on the same weekday every eyar? :p

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My birthday is on the 12th so birthday on Friday all the time :) (Fried eggs, fried eggs, fun fun fun)

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Originally Posted by wiggin

(directed at eJ, not Flixy)
No! (Although obviously that is also a Western cultural export.) I've very clearly articulated how Christianity in its current form - including Christmas - had its genesis and development in Europe, and was then spread around the world during colonization of the last few centuries. Plenty of things the Western world exported during colonialism are labelled as 'cultural imperialism' now; I think it's fair to argue that making the calendar revolve around Christmas in such a blatant manner would be another example. Please demonstrate to me where this is untrue.

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I see a difference between the early colonization by Europeans centuries ago and the current American (Hollywood) cultural imperialism (post WWII). I also disagree that the orthodox wing of Christianity should be ignored.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

I see a difference between the early colonization by Europeans centuries ago and the current American (Hollywood) cultural imperialism (post WWII). I also disagree that the orthodox wing of Christianity should be ignored.

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I don't; colonialism was a far more damaging influence than American cultural exports; in fact, the reason it's called cultural imperialism is that it's seen as a less obvious extension of actual colonialist/imperialist practices of the Western world in the past.

Even today, half of the world's population lives in countries that by and large don't give a shit about Christmas. Why adopt a calendar giving Christmas a special place? How could this not be seen as cultural imperialism?

(I don't think orthodox Christianity should be ignored - I'll readily accept that Christmas is important in Greece and plenty of other predominantly Orthodox countries, though I understand there is some confusion about dates wrt Julian vs. Gregorian calendars? I just think that saying 100 million people in Russia are Christian is stretching the definition of Christian, when only some 5% of the population actually practices.)

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Why adopt a calendar giving Christmas a special place? How could this not be seen as cultural imperialism?

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I think I already mentioned that I agree with you that it is a bad idea. Just for different resons. I see the religious indoctrination as the far bigger issue than "western" cultural imperialism. Most parts of the world are adopting western lifestyle anyway if we like it or not.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

(directed at eJ, not Flixy)

No! (Although obviously that is also a Western cultural export.) I've very clearly articulated how Christianity in its current form - including Christmas - had its genesis and development in Europe, and was then spread around the world during colonization of the last few centuries. Plenty of things the Western world

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Thank you very much for forgetting about the Zoroastrian roots of Christmas. Trying to make Christmass a 'western' import sure helps Salafis and every more extremist sect in Islam in setting aside local christians as Crusaders i.e. not really belonging in the Middle East.

Christmas as we see it today is a wonderful mish-mash of middle-eastern and roman paganism spruced up with some germanic mythology. To say it is a 'western' import is only true if you move seriously to the east of present day Iran. It's as silly as saying modern day Judaism is a european import in the Middle East.

There are various winter solstice holidays out there; Saturnalia, various other pagan ones, etc. But celebrating Christmas as a holiday on December 25 simply isn't of Middle Eastern origins. It wasn't even accepted by the Eastern half of the Christian world for quite a while. Hell, it's still cultural imperialism to the large numbers of people in the (mostly Russian Orthodox) church who still use the Julian calendar's calculations, and celebrate Christmas in January.

I don't agree with your infantilizing of the Salafis either - it hardly matters if people in the Middle East invented Christmas, they still live there and should have freedom of worship. To suggest otherwise is to assume that they're incapable of religious tolerance.

I wouldn't say modern day Judaism is a European import, but certainly Ashkenazi Jewish practices are (e.g. mourning customs during the Omer and the 3 weeks); I wouldn't suggest that Ashkenazi Jewish practice be given primacy over the calendar in Israel, would I?

Wiggin on the notion that you can't/shouldn't count 100mn Russian Orthodox because maybe only 5% practice is a very American-centric view of religion. If you were to get figures in the UK on how many self-identify as Christian vs how many are church-going practicing Christians I would be amazed if the difference between the 2 is not measured in the millions or tens of millions (bearing in mind our population is ~60mn). I think that is true in much of the modern world.

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Originally Posted by Flixy

Am I the only one who likes the fact his birthday is not on the same weekday every eyar? :p

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Beats me, but you're certainly at odds with the guy who came up with this. His birthday being on different days of the week plainly drives him nuts.

No you're not Flixy, I made the same point. :p

So if you're born on the 32nd of December, you have about 5 to 6 times fewer birthdays than everyone else. :( (Possibly :)?)

Not that different to 29/2 to be fair.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

There are various winter solstice holidays out there; Saturnalia, various other pagan ones, etc. But celebrating Christmas as a holiday on December 25 simply isn't of Middle Eastern origins. It wasn't even accepted by the Eastern half of the Christian world for quite a while. Hell, it's still cultural imperialism to the large numbers of people in the (mostly Russian Orthodox) church who still use the Julian calendar's calculations, and celebrate Christmas in January.

I don't agree with your infantilizing of the Salafis either - it hardly matters if people in the Middle East invented Christmas, they still live there and should have freedom of worship. To suggest otherwise is to assume that they're incapable of religious tolerance.

I wouldn't say modern day Judaism is a European import, but certainly Ashkenazi Jewish practices are (e.g. mourning customs during the Omer and the 3 weeks); I wouldn't suggest that Ashkenazi Jewish practice be given primacy over the calendar in Israel, would I?

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Christianity is not your forte is it? Throw a bit of blabla about the Saturnalia and that's it? It is NO coincidence Christmas is on the very same day Zoroastrians had their high holiday. It is as a matter of fact hard to figure out how Christmas happened if you don't know about Mithras. The Russian Orthodox argument is outright stupid as they actually do celebrate Christmas on the day THEY consider the 25th of december.

On the political angle; yes people have the right to worship the way they see fit. However Salafis and the like use the 'foreign CRUSADER import' argument very effectively against local Christians who despite having the right to be Christian in principle see their lives and livelihoods threatened. There is no need to support theis persecutors case in any way of form.

Also congratulations on agreeing with me that Judaism isn't a european import in Israel. Strange though how you are so eager to separate tradition from religion for Jews where you threw them in the same basket so eagerly for Christians.

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

Why not do away with weeks and months altogether? ;)

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This. It's just stupid to streamline the calendar and do away with silly old traditions (like certain Roman emperors having more days in "their" month as a testament to their superiority), but fundamentally engineer the thing around other sillier, older traditions (like 7 day weeks and the existence of months).

New calendar should mean a new week. 5 day weeks, one day weekends, and a 5 week mandatory holiday starting on the 69th week of the year, running until the new year devoted to drunken debauchery and the other related pursuits that make life worthwhile.

Bam, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

I never thought I'd have to have a serious argument over whether Christmas is a Western cultural export.

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Really.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Christianity is not your forte is it?

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Be fair - it's clearly not yours either. The day of the year Christmas falls on has little to do with Christianity and everything to do with human nature - easier to displace a religion by replacing their holy days with yours than it is to try to get them to abandon their old habits and adopt totally new ones. Creatures of habit and all that. So, no, it's not a coincidence that Christmas falls real close to the winter solstice, anymore than it's coincidental that the Zoroastrian high holiday was suspiciously close to this astronomical event. But the fact that it's not coincidental doesn't provide any probative value into the nature of Christianity, it simply reinforces timeless adages about the nature of humanity.

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

Be fair - it's clearly not yours either. The day of the year Christmas falls on has little to do with Christianity and everything to do with human nature - easier to displace a religion by replacing their holy days with yours than it is to try to get them to abandon their old habits and adopt totally new ones. Creatures of habit and all that. So, no, it's not a coincidence that Christmas falls real close to the winter solstice, anymore than it's coincidental that the Zoroastrian high holiday was suspiciously close to this astronomical event. But the fact that it's not coincidental doesn't provide any probative value into the nature of Christianity, it simply reinforces timeless adages about the nature of humanity.

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Funny how you first say something that implies you're going to disprove what I said, then simply go about underpinning what I already said. Merely reinforcing that by pointing out that astronomy/astrology had something to do with the choice of days. That also being something decidedly not of the West.

I would think that the vast majority of Russians celebrate a kind of Christmas with a Santa Claus ("Father Frost") and presents and all, but not the one that comes on the 25th.

I am loving your little argument against Loki though backed up by "facts", earthJoker. :| If you look at the populations of all those countries you bolded (except for Russia) 50 years ago you'll see those numbers at 1/4th or less. 100 years ago those numbers were at most 1/10th of what they are. Further, all those countries except for Russia got Christianity only very recently.

Would be interesting to abandon a calendar altogether. And time zones, too. Just follow the seasons, noting when fruits or veggies ripen for harvest, watching deciduous trees as their leaves change color and drop, follow changing temps and tides in the seas and oceans. Places near the poles have somehow always managed to track time...even with 20 hours of sunlight or darkness...long before we had the Gregorian calendar or Greenwich mean time.

As I've aged, it's noticeable that my memories aren't date-related so much as event-related. When we had that massive snowstorm and five feet of snow that shut down most of the state. When Mt. St. Helens erupted and ash was seen hundreds of miles away. When Operation Desert Storm began. When New Orleans was flooded...

the event with a calendar date that has major significance in my lifetime is 9/11/01. All other things are placed before or after that date, in a strange and poignant way.

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Originally Posted by agamemnus

I would think that the vast majority of Russians celebrate a kind of Christmas with a Santa Claus ("Father Frost") and presents and all, but not the one that comes on the 25th.

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Have you read Hazir's comment on this? The difference of the date is not because Russians don't celebrate Christmas not on the 25th, but because Russia switched to the Gregorian calendar only in the 20th century.

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I am loving your little argument against Loki though backed up by "facts", earthJoker. :| If you look at the populations of all those countries you bolded (except for Russia) 50 years ago you'll see those numbers at 1/4th or less. 100 years ago those numbers were at most 1/10th of what they are. Further, all those countries except for Russia got Christianity only very recently.

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The Philippines have been colonized in the 16th century, that's not recently to me, maybe it is recently to Gentry.
Ethiopia's Christian roots got back to the 5th century, which is probably even before Gentry was born.

I don't see how population growth is in any way relevant.

16th century is recent to me on a Biblical scale.