^^ What he said.
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^^ What he said.
Interesting topic :up: It's a parenting issue that applies to all parents, not just atheists. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Veldan Rath
I don't remember the age of your boys, but they'd be asking the same questions even without the God reference. Toddlers are new speakers and ask WHY for everything....school-aged kids are new thinkers and ask HOW using the same learned technique. It's only the parents or teachers that get stuck on the WHY part, because we're using our age, experience, education, philosophy, and all the other STUFF that comes with complex thinking. Unfortunately for kids, we also bring our baggage and clutter.
Kids are smarter than most adults give them credit. They have tons of questions, really great questions, that don't always have answers that meet their level of understanding. Why does it rain? Why doesn't it snow in summer? Why do the trees lose leaves...are they dying? Kids are especially good at seeing their world in seasons and important cultural events. Autumn/School, Winter/Santa Clause, Spring/Easter Bunny, Summer/Vacation. Even kids raised in atheist homes are smart enough to notice these things.
I've found it's better to "mirror" some questions. At least to figure out what they're actually wanting to learn or figure out. Q: Daddy, is Santa Clause real? A: Johnny, what do you think about Santa Clause?
Sometimes kids are not really concerned with Santa at all, but are worrying they won't get presents if they've been bad boys. Etc...
No that's not true. SOME link Xmas to Christ but by no means do all do so. There is zero obligation at Christmas time to go to Church. At Christmas I will: put up a tree, decorate it with tinsel and fairy lights, take time off work, buy cards and presents, see friends and family, eat mince pies and have big dinners. I won't: go to Church. That is far from unusual so where is the religion in any of that? Its only Christian if you choose to let it be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
I doubt my kids understand the why behind Christmas, all they know is the when and what.
While you're espousing your penchant for honesty, you could be little more honest with the forum, too. Are you speaking as a Father or as an Uncle? The difference matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
If neither you nor the other half bring up God, you don't go to church, how come the kids are asking about God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Veldan Rath
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath
Veldan's experience isn't uncommon, though. The early grades are all about simple grouping, that's what kids at that age know best. That's the beginning stage of self-identity, and figuring out which group-identity they belong.
I like completely missed that.
I think the "plants are thirsty" approach is a good one. It sidesteps the God issue.
No Randblade, it is STILL a christian holiday. In 100 years from today you might be right, but as things stand today, it's christian. You are merely tinkering in its margins, like my family is. And the reason why we do that is that it's inside our comfort zone. For a lot of Jewish people it's well outside of their comfort zone. As I can testify from personal experience, not for all Jews.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
But it doesn't really explain things to a kid who's hungry to figure out the world around them. If the plants are thirsty, what does that mean during drought?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
No its not JUST a Christian holiday - no matter its disputed origins, it is also a national public holiday. In the UK it and Boxing Day are both Public Holidays, in the USA Christmas IS a Federal Public Holiday: http://www.opm.gov/Operating_Status_...edhol/2012.aspQuote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Some may celebrate religion, but its still a national Public Holiday that has entirely secular celebrations around it as well as the religious ones. You may be over-sensitive and refuse to observe it, but that'd be like me going to the USA and refusing to observe Fourth of July. Or Khen going and being upset by Veterans Day.
Thanks for confirming you can't read. It explains a lot about your lack of understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Thank you for confirming you've lost the argument and can't think of any factual replies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
I was raised by atheist parents, and I don't really recall asking stuff about God. Maybe later when I learned about religions, I asked about them, but not in a way that required belief in a God. Trickier if your kid came pre-equipped, don't know how you should tackle that. Good luck with it though!Quote:
Originally Posted by Veldan Rath
Same here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbuk2
Yes, same here, it's a time when everybody has time so a good time for family gathering. We always had a christmas tree, but only recently started with (small) presents. We used to do presents at Sinterklaas, at my grandparents, but that stopped after my grandfather died around that date. Now we just buy eachother small presents. Curious what this christmas will bring, usually we gather with my parents, brother, sister, grandmothers and my aunt, but this year my sister will be abroad, and one of my grandmothers died, so I think my mum would like to do something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Anyway, I think Hazir's point is that while you are right most people don't celebrate it in a Christian way, and it is a national holiday, it still has roots in Christianity and makes people of other religions uncomfortable. It's okay for atheists since you can celebrate it in a non-christian way, but if you are firmly religious in another religion it's a different thing.
It sucks that Eid doesn't count as a public holiday in Sweden, I can't for the life of me understand the reasoning behind that
Not to be a conspiracy nut but could the reasoning possibly be because somewhere between 1-5% of Swedes are Muslim - and historically that figure was even lower?
Yeah, we only get Jewish holidays in New York, where Jews have historically made up 10-20% of the population.
I was, of course, being silly on purpose. It is naturally a reminder that they are in a Christian country that only really honours Christian holidays :pQuote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Britain celebrates banking holidays. I believe the one in late December is called Goldman Sachs Day. :o
Christmas Day and Good Friday are the only "Public Holidays".
All others - including New Year, Boxing Day, Easter Monday etc are Bank Holidays yes - though none are to do with banks of course :)
The fact that you assume I don't celebrate Christmas despite the fact that I have stated the opposite several times doesn't AND that I am basically saying that I find Dread's rejection of it entirely logical seeing where HE is coming from just showed that you are culturally entirely blind and or indifferent. What you propose is not integration of minorities in society but full assimilation. You don't even understand that your demands on minorities are such that you leave them no room even for their existence as a minority. What is the use of talking to somebody about minorities if his starting point is assimilation?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
That's what they want you to think.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
I never assumed that you specifically don't celebrate Christmas, instead I used the informal generic you, conjugated with a reference to America. Perhaps I could have said "one" technically but I prefer not to use that as it sound ostentatious and generic you is an accepted informal alternative in English.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
As regards to assimilation, yes I believe some assimilation is a good not a bad thing. I've said repeatedly for example if I were to go to America I would celebrate Fourth of July, if I was in France I'd respect Bastille Day and while living in Australia I took part in every Australian/Victorian Federal/State holiday including Australia Day. There's no need to take part in religious activities, but secular cultural ones should be respected. There is a middle ground between complete assimilation and complete apartheid - neither is a good thing. Respecting the local culture is part of the good part of assimilation.
Telling young kids, who could quite probably tell other young kids at school/playgrounds etc, that there's no Santa is disrespectful IMO.
I feel atheists are atheists because they believe believers can serve God only by talking and singing. And probably they are disappointed of those sects that are money-leeches.
It's disrespectful to force my kids to believe in Santa and go along with another religion's tradition to appease a majority. :weird: We may find Santa cute and such, but candidly what you're saying sounds a lot like Islamists ranting about "respect".Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
I find myself agreeing with Dread :cyduck: If you can tell your kids you don't think God(s) exist, surely the same has to go for Santa Claus?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
Santa != Christianity FFS. Please quote which book, chapter and verse references Santa? Is he in the book of Matthew? Mark? Don't recall him being mentioned by Luke or John either. What about Rudolph? I believe Rudolph was in the book of Revelations right? Somewhere between Dasher, Dancer, Prancer and Vixen and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
If I lived in Egypt then I'd respect Eid yes. Although then again Christmas (Eastern Calendar so Jan 7) is a National Holiday in Egypt anyway. :p
Fuck Eid.
Tons of stuff in Christianity isn't in the Bible.
So if you were raising your kids in Egypt, you would refrain from telling them that you don't think Mohammad is real and tell them to play along with Islamic celebrations (or have them sit on the side and not explain why)?
No I would tell them that Mohammed isn't real.
As I said the difference is that Santa is a polite fiction like the Truth Fairy or the Easter Bunny, that all kids grow out of. Religion is not. But let me make it clear - I respect your right to do as you please and as far as I'm concerned you certainly should be allowed to tell them he's not real - I just think its impolite and a real shame for very young kids if you do not play along.