Massaschusetts Town Bans Sale of Small Bottles of Water

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

There is extensive infrastructure in place to deliver water from pipes. There is no such infrastructure in place to deliver sodas to every/many homes and businesses.

From an environmental perspective, the delivery of bottled water is hugely wasteful in terms of the energy spent to produce and ship those bottles.

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Irrelevant.

Water from a tap != a bottle of water from the fridge.

Bottled water is equivalent to any other bottled drink and should be treated the same, it is not solely equivalent to what comes out of your faucet. If I'm prepared to pay for a bottle of water instead of a bottle of cola that's my choice. To educate people on the fact that water from the faucet is (meant to be) just as good as water from a bottle is one thing, to ban the healthiest bottle while leaving other bottles available instead is absurd.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Bottled water = Water + Bottle + Refrigeration - a price worth paying for sometimes.

If you're going to ban 500ml of water you ought to ban 500ml of soda too. To only ban the healthiest choice is undefendable. There is no reason 500ml of Coke is better than 500ml of water.

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This has got to be a cultural thing, cause even you wouldn't try to lie this blatantly. You're telling me that all the bottled water they sell over there is refrigerated? :bulb: That seems extremely wasteful. We have isles of the stuff that is sold at room temp.

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Given that Coke IS a water bottling company ...

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Would it have been less confusing if I had said other? Not that coke is exactly the best company when it comes to how they bottle their water.

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I used to work for Domino's Pizza. We sold exclusively Coke products, including still Mineral Water.

When working on a really busy day on the oven (multiple conveyor belt ovens each pumping out heat at ~240C (465F)) building up a sweat in a kitchen that would often reach 30C+ (86F+) even in the UK with just a short time to grab a drink ... It was really refreshing to grab a bottle of water out of the Coke Fridge, down it, before washing hands and getting back on the oven. There were plain taps we used for washing, most were heated but even the cold taps didn't get that cold. We also had no glass or cups allowed in the building as a safety rule. Even if there was though, I wouldn't want lukewarm tap water over a nice cold bottle.

Very few customers bought water, most bought soda, but water was possibly the third-highest selling beverage due to Staff Discount purchases. Staff Discount on drinks we provided was basically at cost (actually we made a small loss on staff 500ml bottles) and water was also the cheapest option. I doubt we ever made much if anything on water sales, it was provided primarily for the staff but available for customers if they wanted it. If water was removed as an option then I'd have switched to Diet Coke or Fanta, not tap water.
How is it any more of a problem than plastic non-reusable cola bottles? Besides bottles can be recycled anyway.

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you are so old that you worked before soda dispensers and ice? :bulb: All the dispensers over here have a water line, and they all generally use ice.
in the US OSHA has regulations that state employees are to be provided with suitable drinking water, either with cups or from a fountain

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What about on a hot day while at the beach or eg Central Park? I can go to a store/stall and buy a bottle of Coke but not water?

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Google has you covered

Let's not forget that each company producing a bottled water product is producing something very different form tap water. While some tap water may be good and some rather nasty, bottled water is intentionally filtered and then infused with a mixture of minerals to give it a unique taste to whoever is putting it in the bottle and selling it as a product. Bottled water isn't the same as tap water because of the unique taste of each brand.

This is an important problem to tackle, and this is the level at which it should be tackled. However, it's hard to disregard the issues raised by RB. I think perhaps we should do as he suggests and ban small bottles of soda and "juice" instead.

Either that or wait for the industry to devise a more environmentally-friendly delivery method for plain water, like cartons.

Whatever strategy we choose, we have to be clear on our goal: the garbage problem has to be solved. The people who produce, sell, buy and thus create the garbage need help with stopping their harmful practices.

Am I correct in assuming that the negative environmental externalities of bottled drinks are externalities and are not accounted for in the costs?

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You're telling me that all the bottled water they sell over there is refrigerated?

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In news agents and supermarkets, they usually have a refridgerated unit near the checkout, filled with an array of fizzy and non-fizzy soft drinks in 500ml bottles and cans, including soda and bottled water - and sometimes sandwhiches and chocolate. Super markets will also have the normal thing of them on shelves at room tempreture deeper into the store.

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Whatever strategy we choose, we have to be clear on our goal: the garbage problem has to be solved. The people who produce, sell, buy and thus create the garbage need help with stopping their harmful practices.

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In finland, stores have these machines where you can feed empty plastic bottles into a recycling machine and get rewarded with a buzzing noise and a small amount off your next purchase. Apprantly, in the Olden Times of Merree Englandeee they had something similar for glass bottles. Take 'em back to the store for tuppence, or something. This was abandoned for the far more effecient practice of burying all the plastic in landfills and then moralizing about the amount of garbage we produce.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Irrelevant.

Water from a tap != a bottle of water from the fridge.

Bottled water is equivalent to any other bottled drink and should be treated the same, it is not solely equivalent to what comes out of your faucet. If I'm prepared to pay for a bottle of water instead of a bottle of cola that's my choice. To educate people on the fact that water from the faucet is (meant to be) just as good as water from a bottle is one thing, to ban the healthiest bottle while leaving other bottles available instead is absurd.

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As I said before, in many ways I see the legislative "rationale" as the government protecting its monopoly in the water distribution "market". It's inherently incompatible with what you and I consider to be consistent/sane business regulation. But I think many regulations meant to tackle externalities/pollution must operate in this kind of weird realm of inconsistency.

I would much rather the government of a local area try out this kind of law that spend tons of money on an education campaign. That just create a permanent and creepy bureaucracy devoted to "educating" people and spending tons of money to do it.

*

Spoiler:

Semi-relevant side note: some states here have very specific laws about the types of plastic containers that can hold gasoline. Some ban people from purchasing gasoline by pumping into certain containers. Still others have laws about metal propane containers and where/how they can be filled. You can bundle them together as "flammable stuff in containers", but the laws actually vary quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

In finland, stores have these machines where you can feed empty plastic bottles into a recycling machine and get rewarded with a buzzing noise and a small amount off your next purchase. Apprantly, in the Olden Times of Merree Englandeee they had something similar for glass bottles. Take 'em back to the store for tuppence, or something. This was abandoned for the far more effecient practice of burying all the plastic in landfills and then moralizing about the amount of garbage we produce.

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We have them too, but the kind of bottles used for bottled water don't have that return money (thin bottles). And with the energy put in collecting and re-using the bottles, while a major part of the bottles is too damaged to re-use anyway, I know there's some criticism on the system over here. Beer bottles and crates have it too, by the way.

Big Brother - how anyone can possibly support this is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

This has got to be a cultural thing, cause even you wouldn't try to lie this blatantly. You're telling me that all the bottled water they sell over there is refrigerated? :bulb: That seems extremely wasteful. We have isles of the stuff that is sold at room temp.

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Almost every small water bottle I've ever bought has been refrigerated. And that's just my logic for buying - others may have their own. Either way it refutes your smallminded point completely.

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Would it have been less confusing if I had said other? Not that coke is exactly the best company when it comes to how they bottle their water.

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No it wouldn't as they're far from the only company to use similar packaging in eg 500ml water as 500ml soda bottles.

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you are so old that you worked before soda dispensers and ice? :bulb: All the dispensers over here have a water line, and they all generally use ice.

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Why would a delivery company that isn't a restaurant that delivers to people's homes use a dispenser? We didn't, we used bottles - far more convenient for putting in a car and driving to someones house. And if they did, your logic for not banning soda bottles falls flat. Do all employees in the States work somewhere with an ice and soda dispenser?

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in the US OSHA has regulations that state employees are to be provided with suitable drinking water, either with cups or from a fountain

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So what? That is again utterly irrelevant.

Feel free to pour a glass straight from the mains tap (not a dispenser and no ice) and put a temperature probe into it. Is it chilled to 1C?

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Originally Posted by Aimless

This is an important problem to tackle, and this is the level at which it should be tackled. However, it's hard to disregard the issues raised by RB. I think perhaps we should do as he suggests and ban small bottles of soda and "juice" instead.

Either that or wait for the industry to devise a more environmentally-friendly delivery method for plain water, like cartons.

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Or if there's an externality then tax to clean it up. Quite frankly I doubt there is beyond snobbish smallmindedness which is why sodas not been banned without thinking through why banning the healthiest choice of bottle is stupid.

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Whatever strategy we choose, we have to be clear on our goal: the garbage problem has to be solved. The people who produce, sell, buy and thus create the garbage need help with stopping their harmful practices.

Am I correct in assuming that the negative environmental externalities of bottled drinks are externalities and are not accounted for in the costs?

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I highly doubt it. Sales tax or VAT, corporation tax etc are all applied on the bottles for which the externalities are frankly not that high.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

As I said before, in many ways I see the legislative "rationale" as the government protecting its monopoly in the water distribution "market". It's inherently incompatible with what you and I consider to be consistent/sane business regulation. But I think many regulations meant to tackle externalities/pollution must operate in this kind of weird realm of inconsistency.

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Does the government actually own your water market? That's very socialist ours are privatised. I doubt that even factors into consideration though.

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Spoiler:

Semi-relevant side note: some states here have very specific laws about the types of plastic containers that can hold gasoline. Some ban people from purchasing gasoline by pumping into certain containers. Still others have laws about metal propane containers and where/how they can be filled. You can bundle them together as "flammable stuff in containers", but the laws actually vary quite a bit.

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Such laws while they vary are pretty universal. That's about safety, completely different.

Interested to know what your solution to this problem is then Rand?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Almost every small water bottle I've ever bought has been refrigerated. And that's just my logic for buying - others may have their own. Either way it refutes your smallminded point completely.

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It just took you several posts to admit that refrigeration is not a component of bottled water, and yet you call me smallminded :bulb:

yeah we're done here.

I still don't see what you were driving at OG, supermarkets also sell soda at room temp.

The ease of access angle. Bottled water is nothing more than water + container. Not exactly a barrier to consumers creating their own product. Soda requires the carbonation. Not something consumers are capable of doing (yet) in an affordable or worthwhile manner.

It doesn't make sense to be against banning the most wasteful use of a product because other uses are similar but not as wasteful. With that type of logic you can always find a reason to never fix anything.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

Interested to know what your solution to this problem is then Rand?

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I don't view it as a major problem that ranks high on the list to tackle (below the soda-induced obesity epidemic on the list of our problems).

However: Encourage mains water usage, encourage recycling, tax any remaining uncovered externalities (doubt there is any).

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

It just took you several posts to admit that refrigeration is not a component of bottled water, and yet you call me smallminded :bulb:

yeah we're done here.

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Serving chilled is a part of bottled products even if supermarkets choose to sell packs of them warm for you to chill later. Coke even have it written on their bottle. Point is there's more uses than your smallmindedness can see to it - being chilled is one. I've never seen individual 500ml bottles sold not chilled just packs of them.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

The ease of access angle. Bottled water is nothing more than water + container. Not exactly a barrier to consumers creating their own product. Soda requires the carbonation. Not something consumers are capable of doing (yet) in an affordable or worthwhile manner.


It doesn't make sense to be against banning the most wasteful use of a product because after uses are similar but not as wasteful. With that type of logic you can always find a reason to never fix anything.

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You fail to wrap your head around the notion that the container (plus what can be done with it) itself may be considered useful to anyone and not just the fluid inside the container. What is the healthiest bottled drink? Which is healthier: bottled water or bottled Coke?

Just a few.small things:
- at my work we have a cooler thingy that cools tap water, aside from being (a lot!) cheaper than bottles, it's also a lot smaller and has less waste.
- aside from being chilled, the bottle simply is a convenient size to carry around (and by that i don't mean from the store to home), and also about the right size of the amount of water I want, while on a train or something
- the chilled bottles/cans that are sold at supermarkets are generally higher priced than non-chilled (hence they also have slightly different packaging). And individual bottles are very available here, but this reminds me of how I was only able to buy 4packs of cider in a UK supermarket - do you guys have something against individual bottles or something?
- some mineral waters do have distinct flavours
- will someone who just wants a bottle of something to drink now.buy a soda instead of water? That's not something you want!

Some colliding principles here: water, plastics, recycling....and general public safety.

Some plastic bottles have been shown to leech chemicals into the beverage itself, posing a danger to the 'drinker'. Think infants or children sucking down chemicals with their hydration/nutrition bottles.

Other plastic derivatives are sent to landfills but leech toxins into the soil (and eventually aquifers and ground water wells), or to incinerators that spew toxins into the air, posing a danger to 'everyone'. Think styrofoam or PVCs.

I think the overriding public need is clean/safe drinking water itself....but take a look around. It's pretty hard to find public drinking water fountains these days. Almost as hard as finding a public phone. :eek:

Oh yeah, another thing: the.negative effects are not in the taxation, waste disposal comes from local authorities, I think. Over here at least.

How much is the marginal cost of waste disposal caused solely by water bottles (not soda etc bottles)? Especially considering they're recyclable so don't need to go to landfill.

How much tax is generated on their sales?

Why is this a unique problem to the healthiest bottle of drink on the market?

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Originally Posted by Flixy

Oh yeah, another thing: the.negative effects are not in the taxation, waste disposal comes from local authorities, I think. Over here at least.

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"Over here" we have rural folks dumping their waste on city municipalities that accept all sorts of "garbage', including toilets, mattresses, refrigerators. We pay for our waste disposal, and septic sewerage, in local taxes. Rural residents don't -- they either use septic tanks to hold their toilet refuse, and pay a private company to pump/remove their refuse -- or they don't bother with any municipal mandate, and put their waste directly into the ground. Like 18th century outhouse stuff.

:sour:

We have other means to solve this problem.
- Water is only sold in PET. I haven't seen any other material used to sell water for at least a decade.
- Everyone who sells drinks in PET bottles must take back empty PET bottles.
- Waste disposal is paid either per liter or per kg, not through general taxes.

The last one has lead to one of the highest recycling rates in the world, and works IMO better than the refund that they have for example in Germany.

If I go to the city and I get thirsty I want to buy some water, how would I do that if this is banned, I can't get taped water everywhere (train).

Didn't you get the memo? OG reckons its healthier to carry a soda with you onto the train than water. Only in America - they're not fat just big boned. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

In news agents and supermarkets, they usually have a refridgerated unit near the checkout, filled with an array of fizzy and non-fizzy soft drinks in 500ml bottles and cans, including soda and bottled water - and sometimes sandwhiches and chocolate. Super markets will also have the normal thing of them on shelves at room tempreture deeper into the store.

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This is how Publix does it. This is a front to back isle, in the dead center of the store, of nothing but water. None of it refrigerated. All the soda is an isle over with the beer, and the juice is at the end of the store with the cookies. Seeing stuff like this on a regular basis, I don't blame this town at all for banning this rather specific combination of product size and delivery method. Schools figured out how to avoid the problem this causes more than a decade ago, but leave it to the free market to need a kick in the pants.

I see what looks like plenty of sodas there which can and will be the replacement bottle of choice for many.

Of the many, many varieties of beverage no doubt sold there please name which bottled beverages are healthier than bottled water.

I am also still awaiting (no doubt forever) the temperature probe of mains water.

My counter-proposal: tax products containing high fructose corn syrup to such an extent that sales of sodas drop, addressing the problems of both garbage and of poor health. Next, tax the purveyors of the worst sorts of water bottles, but give them credits for recycling bottles in good ways.

I'm still of the position that the law needs to be universal and not biased towards water. If the argument is that water is so well delivered by other means. If this was true, that such water is equal in all ways, then people wouldn't by the small bottle of water, but they do. If you're banning it, ban them all.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

My counter-proposal: tax products containing high fructose corn syrup to such an extent that sales of sodas drop, addressing the problems of both garbage and of poor health. Next, tax the purveyors of the worst sorts of water bottles, but give them credits for recycling bottles in good ways.

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Or maybe you could stop playing big brother and mind your own damned business. Your the type of person a hundred years ago would be all in favor of laws against drinking because its a social ill.

My proposal: tax landfill then mind your own.

Oh wait, we already do that. At least the first part.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

My proposal: tax landfill then mind your own.

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As I said in my post, taxing is not the right fing for garbage, you need to pay per item (volume or weight), the same way as if you buy it. Garbage flat rates are the worst thing you can have.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Or maybe you could stop playing big brother and mind your own damned business

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Garbage is my business just as it is yours you shortsighted tit :confused:

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

I see what looks like plenty of sodas there which can and will be the replacement bottle of choice for many.

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nope. no soda. but if its the colored bottles that are confusing you, you've already linked to them once.