Mid-life crisis or good idea?

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Well, you know how they that the pessimist sees the glass as half full and the optimist sees it as half filled? Well, the engineer sees it as being twice as big as it needs to be :downcast:

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And the realist asks what state the glass was in in the first place.

If it was an empty glass that was filled halfway, then the glass is half full.

If it was a full glass that was drained halfway, then the glass is half empty.

:o

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

And as I said, you earn good money, at least in the field of electronics and I think also in mechanics. The reason is simple, there is a much higher demand then there are good engineers. Of course this implies that you are good in what you do.

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Civil engineers don't. They earn piss poor money. My father was a Principal Civil Engineer who retired at the top of his field. The salary he was able to command was pitiful given the responsibilities and budgets his work involved. We spent much of our lives abroad in part because his taxed salary in the UK wasn't enough to raise a family with 3 children.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

I hadn't really thought about Engineering, I suppose that is a more practical side. This may sound like a dumb question but what sort of opportunities are there with Engineering? What is it like in practice?

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I studied Mechanical Engineering at University, for the first year and half.
The course was ok - but I dropped out as I realised in the second year that it wasn't a career I wanted to pursue.

If your mind works in a mechanical way then it could be for you. If you look at bridge structures and find elegance and beauty in design, or you are turned on by the suck-push-bang-blow operation of a four-stroke internal combustion engine, or the idea of modelling efficiency into production-line robotics takes your fancy, then it could be something to consider.

The pay is entirely average from the uni friends from that course I still keep in touch with. One qualified and now works in the design department of a lift company. Another qualified and went to work for a UK satellite company. Neither earns much.

~

From the little one can find out about others online, I'd certainly say you have a passion for Economics. Have you considered a career in your studied field? Or a related field - high finance? Large banks always need Economics experts. Their insight is invaluable to Market Risk departments for example. The pay is second to none.

Tim, I'm surprised you feel that way about engineering compensation. True, absent going into management or a startup you won't ever make really significant money, but engineers routinely top rankings in the US for starting earnings right out of college. Certain professional degrees can net more (law, medicine), and in management you can obviously make more, but engineers generally live comfortable upper middle class lives. Caveat - this is obviously heterogeneous; some engineering disciplines are in greater demand than others. (For a sense of numbers, a two-engineer household approximately 5 years out of undergrad can easily be earning above $150k, which is well above 90th percentile of US household earnings.)

RB, I am obviously very biased here, but I firmly believe that the best undergrad degree anyone can get - irrespective of their future career choice - is in engineering. It teaches you design-oriented thinking, problem solving skills, highly quantitative and analytical ways of understanding complex systems, and gives you a good background in technical vocabulary that will help even if one doesn't actually want to do engineering. I also think it lends itself to fairly broad careers - from working in early stage R&D to later stages of product development, marketing, and sales (technical knowledge is useful in all of these, though some jobs are more technical than others). You can also do front-end innovation/concept generation work, any quantitative work (e.g. finance), or management (e.g. consulting). Physics is nice and everything, but the vast majority of non-academic jobs using physics are actually engineering jobs that physicists do - applied, rather than pure, science.

That being said, it takes a fairly hefty background in science and math before you can even think about doing the work, and I'm not sure it's worth it to go back and restart. If you were to do so, there's a lot of different disciplines you could explore: mechanical, electrical, chemical, materials, biomedical, civil, aerospace, etc. Chemical engineers classically make the most money but have a volatile job market; biomedical and materials engineers are in pretty high demand as well. More traditional disciplines like electrical and mechanical engineering now have lots of overlap with chemical, materials, and biomedical engineering, but also still have plenty of their own space. I should warn you: engineers get cool toys and tough problems and get to feel like they're doing something new and important, but it often involves a LOT of skull sweat and drudgery. Engineering coursework is traditionally the hardest (or among the hardest) in a curriculum, and it doesn't get easier in the real world.

If you're interested in a more scientific/engineering bent to your work without going to school, might I suggest you look into engineering management programs? I don't know if these have much traction in the UK, but in the US these are essentially MBA programs, but with a focus on managing highly technical projects and teams. The extra Master's probably won't hurt your employability but won't take as much time/prep to do... and you may end up working on the kind of stuff you're interested in, anyways. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

Indeed and that's exactly why this combination is so valuable.

Well, thousands. First you would need to ask yourself what kind of physics that you like can be used in engineering. Than think of your branch:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ering_branches

I am totally a electronic guy and if you look what role electronic devices play in the current world, you don't have to think twice about how many possible jobs I could to. But I would not underestimate the opportunities in the other fields. Mechanical engineering might sound old fashioned, but new materials like carbon fiber has let to new ways of construction.

In practice I see my job as very product centered, it is very much about the path from problem to solution. You start by finding our what the problem is, sometimes the hardest part as tasks are often not well defined. From there you start searching for previous solutions for similar problems. You need than to pick your solution, either by formal analysis or from experience (or both). Then you start implementing and finally test your work against your expectations. All this is a continuous task. Your task might change during implementations, new problems or specification are added to your task. Test might show you some faults in your analysis. Then you need to redo some of your work, but hopefully not all.

One of the things I like the most is that you can quickly see how your work improves. You start with an unsolved problem and step by step you end up by something that works. And a good engineer always ends up with something that works or with a clear statement why it doesn't or even better why it can't work. This is quite important if you think about becoming an engineer, you need deep inner interest in understanding how things work, why things work and why some don't. And you will sometime hate your job if things don't work as you want to and finding out why they don't work is probably one of the hardest task. Fining new solutions is also hard but it is far more enjoyable. And you will never search for the same solution twice, but you will search for the same errors over and over again.

And as I said, you earn good money, at least in the field of electronics and I think also in mechanics. The reason is simple, there is a much higher demand then there are good engineers. Of course this implies that you are good in what you do.

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Second dumb question I'm sure but what's the difference between an Electrical Engineer (involving studying at uni etc) and an Electrician (apprenticeship).

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Second dumb question I'm sure but what's the difference between an Electrical Engineer (involving studying at uni etc) and an Electrician (apprenticeship).

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Electricians are essentially guys who set up wiring and the like in buildings. Oh, there are really fancy electricians who do more than that, but they essentially make sure that electrical systems are installed and operate correctly. Electrical engineers are far further up the supply chain - they research, design, and develop new electrical/electronic systems. These can include things like new computer chip designs, designing new/better/faster telecommunications equipment, fancy control systems for industrial processes, encryption and signal processing technology, and transmission devices (e.g. antennas, radar, etc.). Engineers invent the stuff that electricians install (and sometimes fix). It tends to be a much higher value activity, though I do know some electricians who do quite well for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

Civil engineers don't. They earn piss poor money. My father was a Principal Civil Engineer who retired at the top of his field. The salary he was able to command was pitiful given the responsibilities and budgets his work involved. We spent much of our lives abroad in part because his taxed salary in the UK wasn't enough to raise a family with 3 children.

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Well yes, that's one of the fields I would not recommend. I actually wanted to add this to my post and than forgot. Also all architecture and related fields is a though fields, and the building industry is quite volatile ATM.

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The pay is entirely average from the uni friends from that course I still keep in touch with. One qualified and now works in the design department of a lift company. Another qualified and went to work for a UK satellite company. Neither earns much.

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Interesting, maybe you don't have the same opportunities in the UK. Definitely something to consider if you have companies around you that have interesting jobs.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Second dumb question I'm sure but what's the difference between an Electrical Engineer (involving studying at uni etc) and an Electrician (apprenticeship).

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Well it is what an architect is to a builder.

Electrician:
http://www.electricianfairfaxva.com/...lectrician.jpg
Electronics:
http://www.rgbstock.com/users/c/cl/clix/600/mWd43UG.jpg

How you do this:
http://www.filebuzz.com/software_scr..._pcb-61221.gif

Now to make this work you need to know a little bit more than which cable goes where. The underling math can be quite complicated. Actually most of the basics come straight out of physics.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Tim, I'm surprised you feel that way about engineering compensation. True, absent going into management or a startup you won't ever make really significant money, but engineers routinely top rankings in the US for starting earnings right out of college. Certain professional degrees can net more (law, medicine), and in management you can obviously make more, but engineers generally live comfortable upper middle class lives. Caveat - this is obviously heterogeneous; some engineering disciplines are in greater demand than others. (For a sense of numbers, a two-engineer household approximately 5 years out of undergrad can easily be earning above $150k, which is well above 90th percentile of US household earnings.)

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Civil Engineering jobs I know are indeed relatively poorly paid. Browsing through jobs as advertised in the New Civil Engineer, the UKs foremost Civil Engineering magazine to which my father subscribes, have fairly typical civil engineer permanent placements, qualified, with around 5 to 10 years industry experience, paying ~£31k pa (~US$46k pa). That's relatively poor pay for a qualified, experienced professional of around 30 years of age.

Mechanical or Electronic engineering disciplines I only have anecdotal evidence of their earnings. Better indeed than that of a Civil Engineer, but not by much from the people I know. Interesting that your impression is that it pays the earnings of a person in the upper middle class bracket in the US. That is certainly not the impression in the UK. But as I say I have no hard evidence of such typical earnings here, I can only give the impression.

Not helped I suppose by people here referring to technicians as engineers - (oh the tv's broken, better call out an engineer) - something which drives actual engineers here nuts. But that's an aside.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

Not helped I suppose by people here referring to technicians as engineers - (oh the tv's broken, better call out an engineer) - something which drives actual engineers here nuts. But that's an aside.

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That is what I thought of as Engineering, hence my confusion above. Sounds like proper Engineering could be something I'd be quite interested in then. Maybe.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

Not helped I suppose by people here referring to technicians as engineers - (oh the tv's broken, better call out an engineer) - something which drives actual engineers here nuts. But that's an aside.

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The book series "Spellsinger" uses that one for laughs because a magician wants to summon someone from our world who knows technology (their world only has magic). So he tries to summon an engineer.

And gets someone whose work title is "sanitary engineer". Three guesses as to what he actually does ;)

The Dutch word for engineer is a protected academic title :p

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

Civil Engineering jobs I know are indeed relatively poorly paid. Browsing through jobs as advertised in the New Civil Engineer, the UKs foremost Civil Engineering magazine to which my father subscribes, have fairly typical civil engineer permanent placements, qualified, with around 5 to 10 years industry experience, paying ~£31k pa (~US$46k pa). That's relatively poor pay for a qualified, experienced professional of around 30 years of age.

Mechanical or Electronic engineering disciplines I only have anecdotal evidence of their earnings. Better indeed than that of a Civil Engineer, but not by much from the people I know. Interesting that your impression is that it pays the earnings of a person in the upper middle class bracket in the US. That is certainly not the impression in the UK. But as I say I have no hard evidence of such typical earnings here, I can only give the impression.

Not helped I suppose by people here referring to technicians as engineers - (oh the tv's broken, better call out an engineer) - something which drives actual engineers here nuts. But that's an aside.

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CivEs are certainly paid at the lower end of the spectrum, but it's still better than most college degrees. Starting salary is $54k (average); average mid-career salary is $89k. Nothing crazy, but not terrible. Obviously other engineering disciplines are better. I already mentioned chemical engineering (starting: $68k, mid-career: $111k), there's the absurdly good petroleum engineering (starting: $98k, mid-career: $163k), and most of the others cluster in the high 50s/low 60s starting and by mid career get to just into six figures. That's average, so good performers and people in more expensive areas can expect a bit of a premium on that. Even a pretty low paying job for a second earner can push that kind of income easily into the 90-95th percentile for household income; I consider that upper middle class.

Hard to say if it's right for you; the job market in the UK doesn't seem too friendly at the moment. On the other hand, pushing back your re-entry to it untill you are in your mid-thirties might be a little bit too much. I appreciate the contributions of the others in this thread, but what you also should keep in mind when evaluating their upbeat support is that American culture is different. The 'starting over' thing they have going isn't quite as strong here in Europe. It also isn't as widely admired by employers as I'd wish.

One further complication I haven't mentioned yet as I didn't want to complicate an already complicated discussion is I'm looking to emigrate. For personal reasons we're wanting to emigrate to Alberta, western Canada. If I was to return to education I'd be applying at eg the University of Alberta etc and then re-entering the job market in western Canada not the UK.

I've already checked immigration law there and can easily get a work permit under Skilled Worker laws with my current degrees and work experience so that doesn't make much difference. It'd take a few months to get a work permit and a few weeks to get a study one (Amanda could work off my permit either way I believe) so not really an issue either way there. I'd probably apply for a permanent work one even if I got a study one as it'd cut the fees once that went through.

I imagine from what I know of western Canada engineering probably would be more useful than physics too? In an ideal world if I could choose my ideal Physics research it'd probably be something like CERN.

if you're going to start fresh you might as well go all in.


when the marriage collapses in a few months/years. I reserve the right to post at least one nelson.

Nelson?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

One further complication I haven't mentioned yet as I didn't want to complicate an already complicated discussion is I'm looking to emigrate. For personal reasons we're wanting to emigrate to Alberta, western Canada. If I was to return to education I'd be applying at eg the University of Alberta etc and then re-entering the job market in western Canada not the UK.

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Isn't Alberta big in petrol? And Canada has lot of oil sands? Yeah right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sands

I suppose there is a lot of engineering going on in this field. When I looked for a job I took the intersection between what I like and what is demanded. ;-)

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Nelson?

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http://kirktastic.com/wordpress/wp-c...-0.preview.gif

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

One further complication I haven't mentioned yet as I didn't want to complicate an already complicated discussion is I'm looking to emigrate. For personal reasons we're wanting to emigrate to Alberta, western Canada. If I was to return to education I'd be applying at eg the University of Alberta etc and then re-entering the job market in western Canada not the UK.

I've already checked immigration law there and can easily get a work permit under Skilled Worker laws with my current degrees and work experience so that doesn't make much difference. It'd take a few months to get a work permit and a few weeks to get a study one (Amanda could work off my permit either way I believe) so not really an issue either way there. I'd probably apply for a permanent work one even if I got a study one as it'd cut the fees once that went through.

I imagine from what I know of western Canada engineering probably would be more useful than physics too? In an ideal world if I could choose my ideal Physics research it'd probably be something like CERN.

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Well, that's an entirely different story then. I'd be inclined to say 'go for it then. Though you might as well forego the going back to school thing unless you really want it.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

One further complication I haven't mentioned yet as I didn't want to complicate an already complicated discussion is I'm looking to emigrate. For personal reasons we're wanting to emigrate to Alberta, western Canada. If I was to return to education I'd be applying at eg the University of Alberta etc and then re-entering the job market in western Canada not the UK.

I've already checked immigration law there and can easily get a work permit under Skilled Worker laws with my current degrees and work experience so that doesn't make much difference. It'd take a few months to get a work permit and a few weeks to get a study one (Amanda could work off my permit either way I believe) so not really an issue either way there. I'd probably apply for a permanent work one even if I got a study one as it'd cut the fees once that went through.

I imagine from what I know of western Canada engineering probably would be more useful than physics too? In an ideal world if I could choose my ideal Physics research it'd probably be something like CERN.

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Western Alberta has precious little industry other than petroleum and resource extraction. Plenty of petrochemicals, so you could do chemical or petroleum engineering.

If you wanted to do CERN-like work, you can do that from pretty much any major university in the world. But it would take a LONG time for you to get to that level starting from essentially nothing.

Sorry Alberta (which is in western Canada) not western Alberta. I'm thinking probably Edmonton.

Her family lives in the mountains in western Alberta (yes: resource extraction, that does seem to be the entirety of that area).

Yeah, there's a bit more variety in Calgary and Edmonton, though the petroleum industry has crowded out other investment to a degree.

Well this isn't where I expected to be when I start this thread, so I'm glad I did. I think I might apply to study Engineering as that seems to be a good opportunity, a good mix with my existing one and the best fit for there anyway.

Not sure if I'll be able to get onto the course as the requirements listed are just based on Canadian High School courses and Chemistry is stated as a pre-requisite. I didn't study Chemistry as part of my IB, the choice when I was at school was no more than 2/4 of Physics, Biology, Chemistry and IT and I studied Physics and IT.

Cross-threaded from a discussion in a D&D thread but it appears fees even as an International Student there are significantly less than the fees I'd pay here would be.

I'm still not sure that doing an undergraduate degree is a good idea unless they'll count a lot of your previous courses. Can you email the engineering department, tell them about your background and situation, and see if they'd let you into the masters program if you take a year of relevant classes?

Yep, an engineering sub-field sounds right up your alley, Rand. Considering your education and work experience, something in Agriculture/Food/Transportation/Energy comes to mind. That might be quite valuable in Canada, either as a public works employee (infrastructure and transportation grids, energy costs, imports/exports) or working for a local or multi-national food company.

Having your skillset in economics and finance is part of all those things, since they're not just 'managed' but engineered. If you're tired of the food industry, your skills transfer well to pretty much any commodity or consumer product. How about beer? I hear it's a leading industry in Canada. ;)

I'm not interested in Food industry and definitely not agriculture. I'm quite anti-agriculture (subsidies) after all.

I like problem solving and analytics.

Look into industrial or systems engineering, then.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

I'm not interested in Food industry and definitely not agriculture. I'm quite anti-agriculture (subsidies) after all.

I like problem solving and analytics.

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That's Engineering in a nutshell. ;)

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Originally Posted by GGT

That's Engineering in a nutshell. ;)

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Err, no. Engineering largely consists of a workflow such as this:

http://www.cyclelicio.us/wp-content/...rt-500x372.jpg

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Sorry Alberta (which is in western Canada) not western Alberta. I'm thinking probably Edmonton.

Her family lives in the mountains in western Alberta (yes: resource extraction, that does seem to be the entirety of that area).

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Well that's a big change to throw in there! :)

But honestly, doesn't this mean your current skills could be all the more useful? The Canadian economy isn't in as bad shape and your experience could be very useful there in a non-engineering business capacity. It will realistically take you a decade to get the engineering skills and experience to enter the petrochemical industry. But those petro-workers sure need to eat, drink, bathe,have fun, etc, right?

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

Err, no. Engineering largely consists of a workflow such as this:

http://www.cyclelicio.us/wp-content/...rt-500x372.jpg

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This chart is incomplete. There is no path leading to a cable tie. No way a good engineer can live without cable ties.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Cable_ties.jpg

Duct tape trumps cable ties. :D