Texan revisionism

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

Ditto on your piracy.

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You're going have to explain this, I thought I did a pretty good job of squashing Loki and Dread when they claimed this last time from bad assumptions.

I also think the mindset of "this isn't any more wrong than that" is a bullshit way to go about educating the youth, especially when the new "not more wrong" way is pushed by people who quote America as God's light to the world; lack of criticial thinking skills needed to evaluate educational materials and directives.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

I also think the mindset of "this isn't any more wrong than that" is a bullshit way to go about educating the youth, especially when the new "not more wrong" way is pushed by people who quote America as God's light to the world; lack of criticial thinking skills needed to evaluate educational materials and directives.

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It is bullshit, but since all you're doing is objecting to the change in the bias, than you're part of what created the issue in the first place. You accepted crappy education because it suited your own biases. No crying foul when the exact same thing is done back at you.

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

Right, using legislation to whitewash the unpleasanter aspects of German history (under threat of jail time) is clearly not revisionist.

Retard.

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How do you "whitewash" German history if you forbid to say that the Holocaust did not happen? Honestly, that logic doesn't make much sense. Germany is trying to whitewash its history by saying: "We gassed and burned several million jews, communists, gays and other unfortunate humans"? That's like a murderer trying to gain sympathy by saying that he murdered your family, instead of denying any involvement.

Maybe I should explain the term "revisionist" to you: It's someone who tries to change a commonly acknowledged position or rationale.

It is an established historical fact that the Holocaust happened - so if the majority who support this position try to further uphold that position, that can hardly be called "revisionism". You cannot have revisionism without a change of positions. Further fortification of a previously established position cannot be revisionism - otherwise the word itself does not make a lot of sense (revidere - to look at something again).

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

It is bullshit, but since all you're doing is objecting to the change in the bias, than you're part of what created the issue in the first place. You accepted crappy education because it suited your own biases. No crying foul when the exact same thing is done back at you.

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You know damn good and well I've complained about current history lessons. I think that discussion started off on how most grades start history after the civil war.

You should also have noticed that I've attacked two points so far in these 2 threads.
1) The omission (not addition) of important events and people.
2) The reason behind this; the God has chosen America mindset. It stinks of "first they came for" type of attack on education.

So you can take this post and shove it up your ass.

Maybe I had better than average teachers, but I remember learning that labor unions weren't made of angels, and America wasn't the 4th quarter clutch in WWII that its made out to be.

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

How do you "whitewash" German history if you forbid to say that the Holocaust did not happen? Honestly,

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the law is much broader than that, despite what some of us would like to believe.

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

the law is much broader than that, despite what some of us would like to believe.

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Heh, you don't have anything more than that? I see you're resorting to your usual tactics: Redefine words and make obscure references - and when shown that your definitions are wrong, just ignore it and when asked for actual examples for your references, then you don't have anything to show either.

You're just a windbag with a liking for profanity, I guess.

Clearly. I have no posting value, so you should obviously put me on ignore, never respond to (or concern yourself with) anything I say ever again, and just generally fuck off.

Also, I would be deeply hurt by this course of action, so that should be all the more motivation for you to do so.

Yes, that's the best course of action since you seem pathologically incapable of engaging in discussions without using profanities. Or engaging in a discussion in any meaningful way.

The best example of that is your plain inability to understand your misunderstanding of what revisionism actually is.

Good, we both agree. So do it already.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

Ditto on your piracy. We live in an imperfect world. Regardless, whether their intentions are RightThink or not, what matters is whether the material is historically accurate or rather, since the present state of public education in the field is crap, no less accurate than at present.

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I wonder if it's ever not been crap? What's the point of teaching most of that crap to all the kids anyway if not to shape good citizens? And in Texas, and most everywhere else these days, good increasingly means conservative.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

I wonder if it's ever not been crap? What's the point of teaching most of that crap to all the kids anyway if not to shape good citizens? And in Texas, and most everywhere else these days, good increasingly means conservative.

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You actually think that the crap that gets taught at elementary and secondary schools shapes good citizens? Just read the comments on any yahoo story. :bored: Hell, with the state of our education system, one needs to take multiple college-level political science and/or history class (or read a lot independently) to gain an even simple understanding of our past or present political system.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

I wonder if it's ever not been crap?

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Well, there was a time, back in the (mid?) 1800's when people took up arms to prevent the state from forcing their children into "public" schools... back when compulsory, "public" education first came along in this country.

Given that people were willing to kill and die to avoid it back then... and its current state now... I'd have to say I doubt that it's ever been anything but crap (or worse).

Glad I'm enjoying a private school education and can recognize my teacher's liberal bias, even though I may align with some of it...

I'm interested in the role the textbook companies have. Are they purely at the whim of the Texas and Cali education boards or is there some kind of alternative involving 2-3 different kinds of textbooks they could publish? I understand it takes a damn long time and a good amount of resources to write a history book, but is this at all feasible? IMO this just feels like something left out, or maybe I'm understanding this all wrong.

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

Clearly. I have no posting value, so you should obviously put me on ignore, never respond to (or concern yourself with) anything I say ever again, and just generally fuck off.

Also, I would be deeply hurt by this course of action, so that should be all the more motivation for you to do so.

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Or you could try not flying off the handle every time someone from Germany posts

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...en_in_Eger.jpg

:o

What the fuck do some dead Sudeten Germans have to do with the ding-dongs running Texas

Riddle me that, trickster

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

It's more the "owning a swastika" or "buying a Nazi flag" or discussing the importance of Mein Kampf (from both sides) being illegal in Germany that I was referring to.

But sure, book bans (and book burnings, for that matter) are never good, even when the book(s) in question are vile and have no redeeming characteristics.

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The possesion of Kein Mampf is not illegal. And you can buy the book for historical reasons. For a simple fact, the distrinution is not allowed firtstly by copyright (which is owned by the state of Bavaria) and secondly by the law against instigative propaganda.

Maybe you should get your facts right before calling names!

On owning the swastika, it is prohibited through the banning of the NSDAP through the allies.

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Right, using legislation to whitewash the unpleasanter aspects of German history (under threat of jail time) is clearly not revisionist.

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You got it all wrong. Whitewashing the unpleasanter aspects of German history is prohibited (under thread of jail time).

Anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Joker, I already tried to explain that neither the definition of whitewashing nor the definition of revisionism fit his examples. He did not even begin to understand.

Don't even try.

I don't care if I can't convince him. I just want to get the facts straight.

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Originally Posted by NGS

I'm interested in the role the textbook companies have. Are they purely at the whim of the Texas and Cali education boards or is there some kind of alternative involving 2-3 different kinds of textbooks they could publish? I understand it takes a damn long time and a good amount of resources to write a history book, but is this at all feasible? IMO this just feels like something left out, or maybe I'm understanding this all wrong.

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The issue is more a size one - the biggest school districts in the country (and thus, the biggest single market for high school textbooks) are in California (#1) and Texas (#2). Since it's simply not economically feasible to write a wide range of different [humanities/social studies] textbooks tailored to each state's or each school district's demands, basically, all the big textbook publishers write their materials to get accepted in the two biggest US markets, Cali and TX. Which means that the ridiculous school boards and textbook committees in those two states (like the one we're discussing in this thread) get to dictate the textbook standards for the whole country, for the sole reason of being the biggest. Basically, if you can't sell your textbook to Cali and TX public schools, you won't be able to make any money, so all the textbook publishers are stuck pandering to those two markets. Sigh.

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Originally Posted by Nessus

Or you could try not flying off the handle every time someone from Germany posts

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Isn't Earthjoker German? (Even though he lives in that poor German country which has been corrupted by the French. :o) It's Khen who's an impossible asshat, not all Germans.

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Originally Posted by Nessus

What the fuck do some dead Sudeten Germans have to do with the ding-dongs running Texas

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Ideological extremism, fanaticism and a religious level of conviction in in the correctness of their beliefs, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary? (Just off the top of my head... I'm sure there's a lot more too... like the prevailing skin color in both groups. :p)

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

The possesion of Kein Mampf is not illegal. And you can buy the book for historical reasons. For a simple fact, the distrinution is not allowed firtstly by copyright (which is owned by the state of Bavaria) and secondly by the law against instigative propaganda.

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This is unclear (to me).

I think you're saying that the possession of Mein Kampf is legal, but the distribution or sale is illegal? Seems like a de facto ban to me.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

Maybe you should get your facts right before calling names!

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More effort than Khen is worth. Sorry about your luck, though... sharing an ethnicity with the guy. Life is so unfair. :(

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

On owning the swastika, it is prohibited through the banning of the NSDAP through the allies.

You got it all wrong. Whitewashing the unpleasanter aspects of German history is prohibited (under thread of jail time).

Anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

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Well, the law has the effect of preventing/strongly discouraging legitimate academic discussions on related topics, as academics (like many people) have an aversion to being jailed for expressing opinions.

Also... what the hell does Godwin's Law have to do with the subject? It's like a natural law, not like the kind of law that lands you in jail.

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

Joker, I already tried to explain that neither the definition of whitewashing nor the definition of revisionism fit his examples. He did not even begin to understand.

Don't even try.

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Didn't we agree that you were going to ignore my posts, because you find them so devoid of value? Fuck off, already.

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Originally Posted by Loki

You actually think that the crap that gets taught at elementary and secondary schools shapes good citizens?

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Intent boy. INTENT I say! :mad: Result is something different. And I have to wonder what would that result be if school children were taught actual objective history. :undecided:

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

Well, there was a time, back in the (mid?) 1800's when people took up arms to prevent the state from forcing their children into "public" schools... back when compulsory, "public" education first came along in this country.

Given that people were willing to kill and die to avoid it back then... and its current state now... I'd have to say I doubt that it's ever been anything but crap (or worse).

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I think it was late 1800s. Remember we talked about the origin of the model of the US public school system? You threw Stalin in there somewhere but it was in fact the German model. Anyway, if you have a source on the 'take up arms' thing, I'd like to read it.

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

Joker, I already tried to explain that neither the definition of whitewashing nor the definition of revisionism fit his examples. He did not even begin to understand.

Don't even try.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

I don't care if I can't convince him. I just want to get the facts straight.

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Oh, he understands alright. You don't actually expect him to concede error do you???

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Cain Said:
Ideological extremism, fanaticism and a religious level of conviction in in the correctness of their beliefs, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary? (Just off the top of my head... I'm sure there's a lot more too... like the prevailing skin color in both groups. :p)

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That's it. Godwin. Yeah, Texans are backward morons who want nothing more than to turn further back, but they're not like Nazis. They love Jesus too much for that. Take Lewk for example. He's kind and compassionate and forgiving and - oh, wait.

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

Isn't Earthjoker German? (Even though he lives in that poor German country which has been corrupted by the French. :o) It's Khen who's an impossible asshat, not all Germans.

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Why do you think I am German? You know there is a 'location' stated under my avatar.

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This is unclear (to me).

I think you're saying that the possession of Mein Kampf is legal, but the distribution or sale is illegal? Seems like a de facto ban to me.

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You said the possession is illegal, that's not true. You can't copy it, the same way as you can't copy Harry Potter, you don't have the copyrights. But there is an additional ban on "völkerverhetzende Propaganda" in Germany, but the possetion and dirstribution of Mein Kampf for historical research is especially excluded from this ban.

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More effort than Khen is worth. Sorry about your luck, though... sharing an ethnicity with the guy. Life is so unfair. :(

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I don't care about Khen I am just correcting your claims, I also don't see how ethnicity plays into this.

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Well, the law has the effect of preventing/strongly discouraging legitimate academic discussions on related topics, as academics (like many people) have an aversion to being jailed for expressing opinions.

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A claim without evidence. Germany is the country that has the most honest view on the dark spots of its 20th century past.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Intent boy. INTENT I say! :mad: Result is something different. And I have to wonder what would that result be if school children were taught actual objective history. :undecided:

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Again, what is objective history? History happens every moment of every day in every part of the globe. It is impossible to teach about all of it. Decisions always have to be made about what to include and what to exclude. Reasonable historians also disagree about the interpretation of history, which means some of their interpretations have to be included, and some excluded. And of course teachers have their own biases and emphasize some things over others. How exactly do you get an objective reading of history from that? By just memorizing dates, names, and places?

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Originally Posted by Kain

Isn't Earthjoker German? (Even though he lives in that poor German country which has been corrupted by the French. :donkey:) It's Khen who's an impossible asshat, not all Germans.

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Except it's you who went "lol germans" in the first fucking response to this thread. If I posted what your posts tend to evoke in me each time you deigned to type something, I'd hope Dread would act. It is my fear he wouldn't. You're not a voice in the wilderness, you're just yelling and not much anyone's interested.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Again, what is objective history? History happens every moment of every day in every part of the globe. It is impossible to teach about all of it. Decisions always have to be made about what to include and what to exclude. Reasonable historians also disagree about the interpretation of history, which means some of their interpretations have to be included, and some excluded. And of course teachers have their own biases and emphasize some things over others. How exactly do you get an objective reading of history from that? By just memorizing dates, names, and places?

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Just teach 'em every Murikan rich white male was an unabashed success story who lived and breathed the values that are popular

(Because improvement in anything is possible, we should just argue that the present is good enough and hate on the hippies)

"Its impossible to give a definitive answer, therefore any answer, however much a perversion, is equally acceptable"

Seems to be a common line of thought in this thread. Personally i think it reeks of goat shit.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

"Its impossible to give a definitive answer, therefore any answer, however much a perversion, is equally acceptable"

Seems to be a common line of thought in this thread. Personally i think it reeks of goat shit.

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More like the "the Texan bias is no worse than the existing bias, albeit in the opposite direction".

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Originally Posted by Loki

More like the "the Texan bias is no worse than the existing bias, albeit in the opposite direction".

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And because no one can change anything, rolling over and just taking it is just as good as struggling against it

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Originally Posted by Nessus

And because no one can change anything, rolling over and just taking it is just as good as struggling against it

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Why should I be concerned about someone acting as badly as most people are already acting? None of the resident leftists here have voiced any problems with the current form of the curricula.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Why should I be concerned about someone acting as badly as most people are already acting? None of the resident leftists here have voiced any problems with the current form of the curricula.

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You've made it abundantly clear you're not concerned with the way anyone acts as long as they don't hurt anyone's claim to owning anything, and no one's expecting you to change, either

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Originally Posted by Nessus

You've made it abundantly clear you're not concerned with the way anyone acts as long as they don't hurt anyone's claim to owning anything, and no one's expecting you to change, either

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No, I said the current standard of education is horrible, but I'm far less concerned with what is taught than with how it's taught.