Why do you have to be such a dick all the time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
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Why do you have to be such a dick all the time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Sweet call on the Lem quote. :up: Based on Nessus' endorsement I bought a few Lem books. HMV is Nessie's favorite. So I've been reading it and its easy to see why. Very thoughtful stuff, if dated. Actually, there's a lot of surprisingly relevant stuff there - which if you've read much dated sci-fi you will know is pretty uncommon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Being
Everyone's broken. Without a community to right our creaks and moans and fill our gaps and counsel caution we'd self destruct. Cooperation is our greatest strength for lots of reasons. And no its not a fuck you. Sheesh! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
#1. This actually makes a lot of sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
#2. I don't really agree with you entirely (really, how could I being that I don't believe in the christianity thing...?) but it makes sense. If God's out there, I think you have a pretty good argument come judgement.
#3. I still think those posts you make are whacked out (too much joy expressed - maybe if you were more solemn but still, of course, approving...) but I think I understand where you're coming form now.
Have you read your own thread? You're not very good at applying the same standards for yourself as you do for others, are you? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
You're doing it wrong. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
It's mostly been a pleasure. Mostly.
But he ended up by saying he loved us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
So go ahead ... tell us you love us. :mad:
edit: I reread. He was just glad to know us.
Sheesh.
Bastard :(
Dick. All the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I :heart: NY. But you guys? Seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
Yeah, well ... it was the heat of the moment,
Telling me what my heart meant
the heat of the moment,
shown in your eyes.
I never meant to be so bad to you
One thing I said that I would never do
A look from you and I would fall from grace
And it would wipe the smile right from my face
Oh yeah? Well . . . .
i poured it on and i poured it out
i tried to show you just how much i care
i'm tired of words and i'm too hoarse to shout
but you've been cold to me so long
i'm crying icicles instead of tears
and all i can do is keep on telling you
i want you, i need you
but-there ain't no way i'm ever gonna love you
now don't be sad
'cause two out of three ain't bad
now don't be sad
'cause two out of three ain't bad
So what this boils down to is:
Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.
We all knew that, didn't we?Quote:
Originally Posted by termite
I think this cements choobie's solipsism. A couple of years ago, I had to ask what that meant, but he's a perfect example for a nimrod like me. :D
I'm not. You all are MY wierdo. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by termite
But seriously, everyone is fucked up one way or another and some more than most. Everyone knows only some of what they're talking about and the more certain they are, the bigger the liar or the more fucked up. I think, anyway. Oh, and also this is the heart of what makes people interesting.
Well, you got the nimrod part right at least, though I 'd have used a synonym....Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
What synonym would that be to the solipsist?Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Being a solopsist, this is all about me anyway. And, well, I like to keep the ugly truth from myself so as not to grow too depressed. That's what the universe is for, isn't it? To counter this achingly stark and complete isolation. To deceive myself in to believing there is something else, to pretend there is a point. I can't be honest then because it would kill me (us) (them) (we).Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Ah, you're one of the "choose what I want"-Christians then. The ones which, as soon as a particular article of faith becomes uncomfortable, throw out everything which doesn't fit in their agenda. Even if their own lord saviour commanded them to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Turn the other cheek? Show compassion? Get rid of the dependency on worldly belongings? Uncomfortable. And thus you'll find our Lewk Janus-headed. Saying he's a Christian and yet condoning all those deeds diametral to the core tenets of his belief.
Yeah, Jesus had a special opinion on those all about praying and scripture. Read up on the story behind the Merciful Samaritan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Kind of like who socialists who claim to want to help the poor, but refuse to help them unless everyone else does as well.
CHAMPAGNE SOCIALISTS
HYPOCRISY
SATANISM
Movie at 11, folks
You don't honestly see the difference between wanting to make changes to societal order and obeying the will and commands of the living God, the sole creator of the fucking Cosmos? Give me a break, Loki
I believe Loki was taking a jab at me for supporting the construction of sensible social safety nets via government institutions rather than giving away all my personal wealth to churches and charities instead. (All dick, all the time - I think he can't help it :( ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessus
Both are hypocritical. Yet you only attack Lew's hypocrisy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessus
What's stopping you and others like you from writing a check to the government?Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
That's an awful long way of saying 'no', Low-keyQuote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I DO write checks to the government. Huge ones, believe me. And checks to private charities too, not so huge, though. Now listen: If I gave everything I had to the government and to private charities, nothing would be improved. NOTHING. One last time: This isn't about me helping some poor people all on my own, this is about CREATING A MORE HUMANITARIAN CIVILIZATION FOR THE LONG TERM VIA A SENSIBLE SAFETY NET TO HELP PEOPLE WHO CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES FOR THE BENEFIT OF EVERYONE. I can't do that myself. I can't write a check to anybody and get a better society. Your argument, your tactic win whatever dumbass game that goes on in your damaged little brain, is STUPID. It does not negate any of my beliefs, any of my ideology, anything on the left at all. It is just a stupid little trap you try and trip me or whoever up with. And it doesn't work. Get it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
And of all the broken freaks around here.... God! I appreciate you the least. Right now anyway. The least. You put the Ick in Icky. BlaHHHHHHHHH. :down:
Both are the central tenets of their ideologies. Why should I hold socialists to a lower standard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessus
I.E. You don't give a damn about poor people. You only care about some vague notion of "civilization", which you believe is better off if everyone is forced to give more money to the benevolent government. Coincidentally, I do wonder how you reconcile your belief that giving more money to the government won't make a difference and yet believing that if everyone gives more money to the government, civilization will magically prosper.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
You already provided the class with an acceptable answer, there's no need to interrogate your further :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I'm sure he feels good about himself afterward, so it does work in a way. It might be damaging to society as a whole, might not be, but given his right slant, it's doubtful society at large is very high up the food chain of his concerns. Or he has found a convenient excuse in his mind to pooh-pooh it away, such as efficiency and the finality of the truth of Capitalism, one of nature's truest laws. Or something. We're all just shouting in the wind anyhows.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Yes, your inability to grasp central points of arguments has been very prominent in this exchange.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
e: Someone else post something for the love of Cthulhu :(
Your inability to grasp complex concepts like "tradeoffs", "moral hazard", and "perverse incentives" seems like the bigger problem here. You seem to be of the opinion that we should judge the utility of something by the goodness of motives associated with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessus
I agree we should have different metrics on what we allow and don't allow between religion and society. However, on this issue in particular your moral Christian beleifs should impress upon you that society would be committing an immoral act in doing this behavior, and that both society and religion need to universally adhere to this principle. I understand your idea many anime, Death Note, in particular is doing exactly what you're saying. I think though if you thought about the society you'd create not only is at an immoral one, but one not worth living in. A people governed by fear.Quote:
By the same token if someone comes to my home and steals my X-Box I should not try to hunt him down and kill him, as a Christian. However I fully want the government to do that because in order to have a free and orderly society, we should be able to keep the fruits of our labor and prevent criminal acts.
THANK YOU
Well, appearances can be deceiving, my ability to communicate my ideas is notoriously poor. And you're right, I have no idea what "moral hazard" means, is that like "think of the children"? But if we're talking trade-offs, I think having more expensive Axe spray is worth the price of a society whose core tenet isn't FUCK YOU if you can't take care of yourself and your family. I'm also not sure what you mean by the word pair perverse incentives, I know what perversity is and some of those are incentives but I don't think you're talking about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Of course I don't expect a very fleshed out response since your posting seems to indicate you're not at all interested in exchanging ideas or information, it's far easier to ask loaded questions and belittle people.
Go on, I gave you a perfect opening, you can call me a hypocrite and win the thread! Ain't this a great day?
:D If a stupid argument doesn't work the first time, just repeat it ad naseum. That's how propaganda works, no? The very best tool in the conservative box of crap, eh? You totally rock. You're like Dickens says - the best and the worst rolled into one. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
My dream is not to give more money to the government, unless its necessary of course. My dream is for the government to put into place INSTITUTIONS TO ADMINISTER AN EFFECTIVE HUMANITARIAN SOCIAL SAFETY NET TO HELP THOSE PEOPLE WHO CANNOT HELP THEMSELVES THEREBY BENEFITING ALL OF SOCIETY. Does capping things help you read them, or notice them? Big red letters? I'm trying.... :(
You live up to expectation :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Laziness and disrespect, pure and simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessus
He might have missed your statement. If you CAP it, bold it, make the font size bigger, and color it red, he might see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessus
Seeing is not believing.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Chaloobi, have you read your own first post in this thread? :noob: I don't think there's any sense to this debate. You refuse to acknowledge the basis for alternate views, in no small measure because of your utter ignorance of the very subject you rant about.
Loki - You are as Broken as You are Freaky. And who the hell is Chaloobi? :mad:
Now this here is a very important point, and I'd like to flesh it out further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
When you speak of "utter ignorance", is it because Chaloobi questions the superiority of unabashed, free market free reign fuck it all Capitalism?
You've gone on the record to say that to oppose capitalism is akin if not entirely similar to opposing gravity; my witty Wright brothers riposte aside, I take this to mean you think the superiority of Capitalism as the econo-political system of humanity cannot be questioned as the theory of gravity cannot be questioned. (I won't go into the derail about how little we know of gravity for the sake of the analogy.) With the understanding that I am not a professional scientist in the field, I do however note that there isn't a similar consensus among economists and poli sci folk about unabashed, uncontrolled fuck it all Capitalism being the best of the best as there is about gravity within the Coke bottle glasses physics community. Am I mistaken? Does the field of economic science and political science universally agree that unabashed, uncontrolled fuck it all Capitalism is the only reality?
The question we've tried to pose, which you steadfastly seem to ignore in favour of ridicule and contempt, is whether Capitalism is the best system all around. You've made it abundantly clear that unabashed, uncontrolled fuck it all Capitalism is the best method of producing cheap food, Axe spray and alcohol. For a small sub-set of humanity, anyhows. The question, the question, is whether that is the best thing for humanity. Is efficiency the be-all, end-all goal of humanity? It seems like putting the cart before the horse; humanity has to serve the interests of money and capital instead of the opposite. The argument from your side is that serving capital also serves humanity, but Reaganomics, trickle-down and whatnot have shown this to be a lie, a blatant lie uttered endlessly to garner votes. It is not science.
What we're asking, we in the loose sense, is whether it is more sensible to compromise some of that efficiency towards humanitarian concerns. Whether it makes for a better, more stable and healthier society if single mothers don't have to prostitute themselves while working two jobs just so little Jimmy can afford cancer medicine. If Jimmy's older brother doesn't have to fall into a life of substance abuse and crime because his untreated mental illness and parent's poverty prevents him from going to school.
Your answer, you in the loose sense, seems to be that a) these things solve themselves and if they don't the people in question didn't try hard enough 2) if we care so much, we aren't we in there, elbow deep in shit helping people, forgoing sleep, work and sanity in the interest of our alarmist, champagne socialist horror? You, in the loose sense, argue that we are cowardly, that we are hypocrites, that we are infringing on the rights of people to the sweat of their own brow, all these essentially emotional and ethical arguments, the very self-same type that you tell us is unacceptable coming from us. Again, us in the loose sense.
From previous discussions, it seems to me that you have a genuine belief that if only some of us opened up an Econ 101 text-book, we'd all sign onto your flight to unabashed, uncontrolled fuck it all Capitalism without further question. That it is due to our ignorance that we behave in this immoral (in your perception) way, that we haven't seen the light. This is the behaviour of a believer, and by that I mean a believer of a religion.
One of the prime axioms of unabashed, uncontrolled fuck it all Capitalism is that the superior combatant wins. How can you then ask us not to refuse basis for alternate views? We must struggle and compete in the market of ideas, the evolution of human culture, because it is only through struggle that triumph is found. Amalgamation and capital.
A small sentence to go with that text; I find it rather amusing that Loki will denounce other systems of philosophy (regarding government or economics) on the basis that they fail due to human nature, yet he turns a blind eye to how capitalism is brought down by human nature, at least in debates on this forum regarding it.
I also doubt that Loki would be happy with unabashed capitalism, whether he realizes it or not.
It's pretty understandable, he makes least squares models and stuff about human beings and he has to assume some very non-human (not inhuman!) assumptions about humanity for the models to work. I'd be very pissed off too if my electrons started demanding electron rights, votes and so forth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
Thank you for that useful insight Mr. Marx. Last I checked, capitalism is alive and well, despite numerous attempts to destroy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions