What what, did I hear "increase the child tax credit"?

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

You said:

I assume by that first statement you meant because there is no guarantee this money will be "used for the kids" whatever the fuck that means, then this credit should not be given. Did you mean something else?

I'm not sure what I'm dodging on the vote buying issue. If a senator's constituents are suffering financial woes due to a recession and he helps pass some kind of financial relief, the cynics are always going to say he's buying votes. Same thing with the capital gains tax cut. Conservatives buying votes. Both have actual underlying policy considerations too, don't they. :rolleyes:

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You are correct in that I think there should be no tax credit.

But there are OTHER way to help. IT"S JUST NOT THE FED'S JOB.

You are also correct earlier that the tax credit is a fucking inefficient way to take money then give it back. Maybe just not tax income at all? (oooo can't have that though can we? wouldn't want the Fed to lose it's overlordship power over it's citizens would we?)

AND you are correct it is vote buy all around, so maybe we need another method of taxation.

Tax consumption (ideally) or wealth (too difficult)...not income.

AND yer calling OG a conservative?

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

But there are OTHER way to help. IT"S JUST NOT THE FED'S JOB.

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Send them the CHURCH! Let the United Way do it! Why should the government be in the business of safeguarding its citizens! This is where it gets down to the meat of the thread I started about what you think the nation is for.

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You are also correct earlier that the tax credit is a fucking inefficient way to take money then give it back. Maybe just not tax income at all? (oooo can't have that though can we? wouldn't want the Fed to lose it's overlordship power over it's citizens would we?)

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With taxes you buy civilization. It all depends on what you want your government to be doing, what kind of nation you want to live in. Might be perfect to post such things in that other thread. This conversation is what got me thinking about it in the first place.

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AND yer calling OG a conservative?

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OG is making arguments typically made by jaded, cynical conservatives. Quack and I'll call you a duck.

Uh, if she's getting a refunded child tax credit *i.e. the Additional Child Tax Credit* then my understanding is that while it comes from general treasury funds, it's refunding payroll taxes. So she might not be paying any federal income tax, but there are still federal taxes she is paying.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Send them the CHURCH! Let the United Way do it! Why should the government be in the business of safeguarding its citizens! This is where it gets down to the meat of the thread I started about what you think the nation is for.

With taxes you buy civilization. It all depends on what you want your government to be doing, what kind of nation you want to live in. Might be perfect to post such things in that other thread. This conversation is what got me thinking about it in the first place.

OG is making arguments typically made by jaded, cynical conservatives. Quack and I'll call you a duck.

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Now I get to call some one else a knee jerk reactionary! (Wow, now I see why Tear does it.)

I did not say there should be no taxes you jackass. I suggest that there are other ways for tax revenue to be garnered. Also, this country is not just the Federal Government. It made up of 50 States and those States have governments, rights, and duties.


And so OG makes one or two observations that disagrees with your view and he is now a Conservative. You're making arguments like a paternalistic liberal. Or as Nessus points out, a champagne socialist. (Thank you Ness...it explains so much)

You are just a hack.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Extended beyond his means. :| Yeah, so your solution to everyone in financial trouble due to the worst recession since the 1930s is they should have been ready for it and since they weren't its their own damn fault so fuck them. After all, who didn't see this coming, right? Please.

And no, he's not going to try and use his children to stay afloat. (Jesus, I can't believe how you are slurring this shit around to put the most negative spin on people you can. :? ) He's receiving a targeted tax credit to help him get through the recession without having to dump his busines and assets. Why target people with kids? Because maybe someone has made a value judgement that helping adults with children is more urgent than helping adults wtihout children. Do you have more responsibility now that you have kids? Do you think losing your house is a bigger deal now that you have kids than it would be before you had them? Come on! This is getting ridiculous! Is that the key to being conservative? Hate people? Blame them for their own problems? Resent them for the help they get? Assume the worst out of people? Fuck. :down:

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3 cheers for more selective reading and replying!

I think people should stand to lose a lot if they didn't have the common sense to secure it. Middleclass is not a class that the government should be focusing on, just to make sure they stay middle class. I've seen that getting knocked down a rung or two helps people become more humble and protective with what they earn. I don't see why a household that makes $80,000 should get to double their child tax credit to "temporarily" avoid having to be a pinch.

A large percentage of the middle class could learn a lot after having to fend for themselves. Getting propped up by the government so they can avoid any discomfort doesn't solve a damn thing thats currently wrong with this country.
I have no problem with government program and support to those that have reached rock bottom and need help getting their head above water. I do have a problem with the government stepping in before the family even has to get their hands dirty.

Yes your brother is a textbook sob story. His family needs to sit down and reevaluate a lot of what they took for granted.
They should not expect the government to continue to fund their way of living.

OG, did you say you're using your child tax credit to go on a cruise? But you take WIC and say getting married would be a financial burden?

Who are you and what have you done with the real OG's body?

Or have you always been this way, and I've just not noticed?

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

Uh, if she's getting a refunded child tax credit *i.e. the Additional Child Tax Credit* then my understanding is that while it comes from general treasury funds, it's refunding payroll taxes. So she might not be paying the federal income tax, but there are still federal taxes she is paying.

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I haven't seen a paystub in a long while, but I believe it was the "FED TAX" listing that was always zero. The others still had deductions.

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Originally Posted by GGT

OG, did you say you're using your child tax credit to go on a cruise? But you take WIC and say getting married would be a financial burden?

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Not really a burden, but we're better off not married.
She is no longer on food stamps. Brandy still gets WIC; never seen so much milk! They also help with the $12 a can formula.

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

Who are you and what have you done with the real OG's body?

Or have you always been this way, and I've just not noticed?

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The ACC was always black and white. Always about the too poor or the too rich. Don't remember discussing the middle. The middle class is just like the middle child. No one cares.

Hmmm...not sure I agree, but that's just me.

It would lead to an interesting side dissucssion: What is the definition of The Middle Class?

Between me and my spouse we earn about $120,000 before taxes in Maine (yes, I think where you live means just as much as how much you earn), so is that Middle Class? I think so, upper end maybe (cause we are in Maine).

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

3 cheers for more selective reading and replying!

I think people should stand to lose a lot if they didn't have the common sense to secure it. Middleclass is not a class that the government should be focusing on, just to make sure they stay middle class. I've seen that getting knocked down a rung or two helps people become more humble and protective with what they earn. I don't see why a household that makes $80,000 should get to double their child tax credit to "temporarily" avoid having to be a pinch.

A large percentage of the middle class could learn a lot after having to fend for themselves. Getting propped up by the government so they can avoid any discomfort doesn't solve a damn thing thats currently wrong with this country.
I have no problem with government program and support to those that have reached rock bottom and need help getting their head above water. I do have a problem with the government stepping in before the family even has to get their hands dirty.

Yes your brother is a textbook sob story. His family needs to sit down and reevaluate a lot of what they took for granted.
They should not expect the government to continue to fund their way of living.

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So, do you put yourself in that category, too? If you're accepting WIC, then what the hell are you doing planning a Disney Cruise?

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

I did not say there should be no taxes you jackass.

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And I didn't say you did fuck face.

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I suggest that there are other ways for tax revenue to be garnered. Also, this country is not just the Federal Government. It made up of 50 States and those States have governments, rights, and duties.

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Thanks for the civics lesson, now my statement still stands. You buy civilization with taxes. How much you tax and how you tax depends on what kind of country you want.

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And so OG makes one or two observations that disagrees with your view and he is now a Conservative. You're making arguments like a paternalistic liberal. Or as Nessus points out, a champagne socialist. (Thank you Ness...it explains so much)

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Kiss my ass dick. I'm referring to the conservative position he's arguing for - I'm not going to pretend it isn't what it clearly is just because he's known to be liberal in other arguments. Sorry if that doesn't fit into the category you've pinholed him. Maybe you should be less close minded.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

I think people should stand to lose a lot if they didn't have the common sense to secure it. Middleclass is not a class that the government should be focusing on, just to make sure they stay middle class. I've seen that getting knocked down a rung or two helps people become more humble and protective with what they earn. I don't see why a household that makes $80,000 should get to double their child tax credit to "temporarily" avoid having to be a pinch.

A large percentage of the middle class could learn a lot after having to fend for themselves. Getting propped up by the government so they can avoid any discomfort doesn't solve a damn thing thats currently wrong with this country.
I have no problem with government program and support to those that have reached rock bottom and need help getting their head above water. I do have a problem with the government stepping in before the family even has to get their hands dirty.

Yes your brother is a textbook sob story. His family needs to sit down and reevaluate a lot of what they took for granted.
They should not expect the government to continue to fund their way of living.

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I dont' even know where to begin. You are so completly disconnected from the reality of what you're talking about. Unbelievable. And by the way, nobody ever suggested the government should fund someones way of living or that the government IS funding it with the tax credit. If you think that little shit tax credit can fund the middle class lifestyle you're actually talking about - the big spenders maxing out their credit cards and driving two SUVs around - you're showing you have no clue.

Fend for themselves. Jesus Christ. What do you think is going on out there!?!?! Fuckinay.

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Originally Posted by GGT

So, do you put yourself in that category, too? If you're accepting WIC, then what the hell are you doing planning a Disney Cruise?

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My family won't be middle class for several years at our current pace.

Since we're not married the WIC ignores my contributions in the family. So both the WIC and Tax refund are solely the work of Brandy. Its not even a system we could slightly be accused of cheating. With the passports the cruise is going run us a little shy of $3,000. Thats less than half what Brandy is getting back, and the other half is going to knock out one of my two remaining credit cards. Putting us a little ahead of our schedule to be completely debt free.

Its Brandy's assistance, and Brandy wanted a vacation. She could use the tax refund and pay bills, and I would simply pay for the trip. In the end its all coming out the same.

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

It would lead to an interesting side dissucssion: What is the definition of The Middle Class?

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I hate connecting an income amount to it. I always considered it to do with how much disposable income you spend on stuff you aren't expecting a return from. I've seen collectors worth hundreds of thousands, but living (happily) in an apartment thats cheaper than their storage unit.

Funny to see a socio-economic term reduced to its economic component. Is this a particular American blind spot, the inability to understand that class is not just the money you make?

I'm confused about OG's posts and attitude toward the income vs lifestyle part....

Oh, so it's not just me. It appears to me that being middle class never was about how much you spend, and only to a limited extent about how much you take home.

Income isn't the only factor for social group you claim yourself to. You could be banking thousands, millions, but it doesn't make you upper class. Middle, and Upper class living requires a personal decision to accept. If you want to live in a $600 a month apartment, I don't care how much you're worth, or what you make. You're not Upper Class.

Middle and Upper class requires a will to spend, a decision that moving up is worth it. Being middle class and higher requires both a physical representation and mental commitment.

It works on the flip side to. Thats why so many people who believe(d) they were or are middle class when they aren't and likely never were. They think if they live behind the white picket fence, with the 2 car garage, and the 42" LCD, they are middleclass like their neighbors. Completely ignoring that at their current pace, or in a downturn, they have no hope in continueing their life style. They were simple afraid of living like the lower class; and karma came knocking and look where we are.

Recalls watching Fun with Dick and Jane.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

And I didn't say you did fuck face.

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Well you sure as hell implied it.

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Thanks for the civics lesson, now my statement still stands. You buy civilization with taxes. How much you tax and how you tax depends on what kind of country you want.

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You needed it.

And so does mine.

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Kiss my ass dick. I'm referring to the conservative position he's arguing for - I'm not going to pretend it isn't what it clearly is just because he's known to be liberal in other arguments. Sorry if that doesn't fit into the category you've pinholed him. Maybe you should be less close minded.

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Gods your impossible. Make up your mind then. The direction of your posts was that he was some evil conservative, but i f you're just saying that this particular argument of his sounds fiscally conservative, fine, I agree, but on balance from what I remember in other discussions, he has not been. But I have not pinholed him and I am always willing to re-evaluate and remember that personal politics are more than 2 dimensions.

Unlike you.

Oh and if 6k is a lilttle shit tax credit...what are you living on?!!!?....that over 10% of my annual income before taxes!


(breathing, breathing...pause...breathing)

Okay, now that Choobs and I are done with our hissy-fit...where were we?

No wonder you say you won't be middle class at your current pace, OG. Lifestyle is not just about income or spending, as much as it is about saving and making smart choices, and living within one's means.

It seems you also think the child tax credit should only be for those below middle class, the place you say you're at, and not a family making 80K/yr. Is that what you meant to say?

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Oh, so it's not just me. It appears to me that being middle class never was about how much you spend, and only to a limited extent about how much you take home.

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So what is it to you?

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

So what is it to you?

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It's about the environment you grow up in and live in. It's about the mores those people share, which will express themselves through education and culture. And if you look and the financial side of it; a longterm ability to support that life style. Being middle class is not something that comes and goes with your paycheck.

Is this thread now about defining social classes? And using that to determine who "deserves" to get a tax credit?

Has it been posted already somewhere else (if it has I apologize, am having difficulty maneuvering the new format), the SC LT Gov's remarks suggesting that giving breaks to certain people with kids is like feeding stray animals, and encourages them to breed?

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Ah, yes, post 8:

So you think of the cost and responsibility of raising a family, especially when the economy is in turmoil, as, well, as nothing :| .

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Er... no? It's not my fault your word parser is broken. I said you get a subsidy for nothing -- just by the fact that you have kids, you get a subsidy. And you know that. Why should I even debate with you when you turn everything into a syntax battle?

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And your argument is per-child tax credits encourages middle class parents not to work. :| Yeah.

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Again, I said "to work less".

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And that Obama's purpose for increasing this credit is to increase the size of the middle class. :| If you're going to be voluntarily stupid in your arguments, I'm going to talk to someone else.

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Voluntarily stupid? Look who's talking! The entire stated purpose of all these proposals was to increase the size of the middle class, and they fail at that.

Link that stated purpose was to increase the SIZE of the middle class?

I was under the impression that all this talk of tax credits/refunds/rebates was to put more money back in peoples' pockets, with the theory that they'll do one of two things: Save for their kids and/or retirement--which reduces future need for further government subsidy, or Spend it--which stimulates the general economy.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

It's about the environment you grow up in and live in. It's about the mores those people share, which will express themselves through education and culture. And if you look and the financial side of it; a longterm ability to support that life style. Being middle class is not something that comes and goes with your paycheck.

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Cultural differences, I think. The US never really accepted a concept of hereditary classes. Our classes for the most part all look pretty similar outwardly, and the primary difference really is just money. For the most part, the biggest difference is that richer classes have more expensive things.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Cultural differences, I think. The US never really accepted a concept of hereditary classes. Our classes for the most part all look pretty similar outwardly, and the primary difference really is just money. For the most part, the biggest difference is that richer classes have more expensive things.

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Interesting. You and OG seem to share the idea that income alone can define one's class status, while I seem to share Hazir's.

ie, You can win the lottery for eleventy billion dollars, but that won't make you Upper Class by default, if all you do is buy a bunch of gawdy stuff and velvet nude art. Alternatively, you can make median wage and live in a $600/month apartment and be Middle Class, if you value being educated and eat good bread.

Because you're not really talking about the different classes, you're talking about the ability to get to a certain class and/or stay there. I'm also not disagreeing that cost of living of your area factors in to which class you fall in. Or it should, anyways. The government disagrees.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Cultural differences, I think. The US never really accepted a concept of hereditary classes. Our classes for the most part all look pretty similar outwardly, and the primary difference really is just money. For the most part, the biggest difference is that richer classes have more expensive things.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Because you're not really talking about the different classes, you're talking about the ability to get to a certain class and/or stay there. I'm also not disagreeing that cost of living of your area factors in to which class you fall in. Or it should, anyways. The government disagrees.

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OG should consider himself and his family's lifestyle as Middle Class, but he doesn't. Why not?



Also, I'm testing the multi-quote and double-click. :noob:

I don't know his situation well enough to comment authoritatively. I thought he mentioned that his family gets government assistance, so that could be it. I also hear he lives in a milk crate.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

I don't know his situation well enough to comment authoritatively. I thought he mentioned that his family gets government assistance, so that could be it. I also hear he lives in a milk crate.

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I don't really know either. OG, what say you? :p


You live in FL but you're spending hundreds of dollars on passports for kids, to take a Disney Cruise, yet you say--

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My family won't be middle class for several years at our current pace.

Since we're not married the WIC ignores my contributions in the family. So both the WIC and Tax refund are solely the work of Brandy. Its not even a system we could slightly be accused of cheating. With the passports the cruise is going run us a little shy of $3,000. Thats less than half what Brandy is getting back, and the other half is going to knock out one of my two remaining credit cards. Putting us a little ahead of our schedule to be completely debt free.

Its Brandy's assistance, and Brandy wanted a vacation. She could use the tax refund and pay bills, and I would simply pay for the trip. In the end its all coming out the same.

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No, in the end it doesn't all come out the same. Not as far as mind-set.

Weren't you the one who was whining about people who live beyond their means and want the champagne lifestyle on a beer budget?

:confused:

Lower class because I have no true cash savings, still owe almost $40,000 in debt, and I don't have a steady flow of middle class expenses.

I buy expensive things when I can (aka splurge), but I still keep to my budget
but we've driving a beater of a van that we're just waiting to implode on itself, while my "new" car is the lowest end model from a now desolved brand, and is beyond lease years (even if it does have all the trimmings)
we have an awesome house, but we're still SOG, closest thing Tampa has to a ghetto
I still wear stuff I used in high school
no cable, tivo, netflix
computer has 1 video card, none of my tvs or monitors can do 120hz, and none of the TVs are 1080p
haven't seen the inside of a mall in forever
or a movie theater
none of the rooms in the house have a theme, we own more furniture from charity than we purchased ourselves

I consider myself good on planning my money; we aren't for wanting, but thats a case of ignorance is bliss, not middle class. I have a budget, and I've learn quality of life wins over speeding up the time table of my budget. So if its over and extra, its time to enjoy life.

We are a family of 5 on ~$40,000 a year. How do you spin that into middle class?

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Lower class because I have no savings, still owe almost $40,000 in debt, and I don't have a steady flow of middle class expenses.

I buy expensive things when I can (aka splurge), but I still keep to my budget
but we've driving a beater of a van that we're just waiting to implode on itself, while my "new" car is the lowest end model from a now desolved brand, and is beyond lease years (even if it does have all the trimmings)
we have an awesome house, but we're still SOG, closest thing Tampa has to a ghetto
I still wear stuff I used in high school
no cable, tivo, netflix
computer has 1 video card, none of my tvs or monitors can do 120hz, and none of the TVs are 1080p
haven't seen the inside of a mall in forever
or a movie theater

I consider myself good on planning my money, we aren't for wanting; but thats a case of ignorance is bliss, not middle class.

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hmm I'd never heard of SOG.

Let me get this right. You have a college degree (or at least some college level education), you work in Library Sciences, making at least national median wage, probably FL state wages twice the poverty rate, you upgraded to a home from an apartment, you own 2 cars, have posted about the fancy computer you just bought, plus all the games 'n things, you have 3 kids and a bunch of cats under one roof.....

But you won't get married because Brandy will lose subsidies, she takes WIC, you don't have any savings (NONE? Really?), you have $40,000 in debt.....

So you decide to spend $3,000 for a VACATION, and say you're good on planning your money?

Maybe you're right. This is not the middle class value system.

However, you seem to be the one trying to keep up with images and white picket fences. You want a child tax credit to afford living beyond your means, while criticizing anyone else with kids just because they make more money?

What?

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Originally Posted by GGT

hmm I'd never heard of SOG.

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Tried to make it a link. Does it show as one?

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Let me get this right. You have a college degree (or at least some college level education), you work in Library Sciences,

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Walked out right before finishing, because of work

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you upgraded to a home from an apartment, you own 2 cars, have posted about the fancy computer you just bought, plus all the games 'n things, you have 3 kids and a bunch of cats under one roof.....

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I don't own, and renting a home is no better, or more expensive than renting an apartment of the size rooms. I own a car and Brandy owns a dying van. We pay on one, and have absolute minimum coverage on the other. None of my games are bought at retail price, on the most part my play schedule is 2-3 years behind, I get more games from Steam clearance and Big Lots than anywhere else. We have 3 kids, on government assistance and free lunch.
I DON'T WANT THE ANIMALS.

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But you won't get married because Brandy will lose subsidies, she takes WIC,

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Part of my budget, I worked us out of foodstamps, its one step at a time. It all comes to a head when the debt is gone and Brandy gets a ring.

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you don't have any savings (NONE? Really?), you have $40,000 in debt.....

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No stuffed cash savings account no, I have between $40,000 - $50,000 in open credit. I know overall its a gamble, but I take the stance that anything with an interest rate higher than my savings bank rate gets paid before I save. I operate with a paychecks worth of spending room, thats more as a failsafe for an accidential double charge or such.

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So you decide to spend $3,000 for a VACATION, and say you're good on planning your money?

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Quality of life spread over the childhood of kids. I plan the budget around firm paychecks. It works, anything else is for smiles.

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Maybe you're right. This is not the middle class value system.

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Not at all

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However, you seem to be the one trying to keep up with images and white picket fences. You want a child tax credit to afford living beyond your means, while criticizing anyone else with kids just because they make more money?

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I'm happy where I'm at, cause the house is happy. We don't need to push for middle class. Like I said, Ignorance is Bliss. I know what I don't have, and what to aim for, but I don't need to ge there ASAP.
I don't want a doubling of the tax credit. I originally posted about the $6000 Brandy is getting cause I thought that was a stupid amount. Parents that plan don't need it, and the parents that need it aren't going to use it on their kids. I support government assistance to the lower class, but not to stop the middleclass from becoming lower class.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

I also hear he lives in a milk crate.

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Found the proof:

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3335/ogathomeia5.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

I'm happy where I'm at, cause the house is happy. We don't need to push for middle class. Like I said, Ignorance is Bliss. I know what I don't have, and what to aim for, but I don't need to ge there ASAP.
I don't want a doubling of the tax credit. I originally posted about the $6000 Brandy is getting cause I thought that was a stupid amount. Parents that plan don't need it, and the parents that need it aren't going to use it on their kids. I support government assistance to the lower class, but not to stop the middleclass from becoming lower class.

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So basically, it's perfectly fine for you to receive handouts, but not for anyone who is actually trying to stay off assistance, keep their kids in neighborhoods with good schools, etc.

Instead of using the tax credit Brandy is getting to put her into a decent vehicle, it's much better to go on a Disney cruise.

Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by littlelolligagged

So basically, it's perfectly fine for you to receive handouts, but not for anyone who is actually trying to stay off assistance, keep their kids in neighborhoods with good schools, etc.

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Wouldn't the handouts be assistance?
I just think people need to fall a little before they get propped up.

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Instead of using the tax credit Brandy is getting to put her into a decent vehicle, it's much better to go on a Disney cruise.

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This isn't my call yet, she won't let go of that Ford. I've taken her car shopping god knows how many times. She just wants to go away.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Tried to make it a link. Does it show as one?

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Yes, to Urban Dictionary. :)

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Walked out right before finishing, because of work


I don't own, and renting a home is no better, or more expensive than renting an apartment of the size rooms. I own a car and Brandy owns a dying van. We pay on one, and have absolute minimum coverage on the other. None of my games are bought at retail price, on the most part my play schedule is 2-3 years behind, I get more games from Steam clearance and Big Lots than anywhere else. We have 3 kids, on government assistance and free lunch.
I DON'T WANT THE ANIMALS.


Part of my budget, I worked us out of foodstamps, its one step at a time. It all comes to a head when the debt is gone and Brandy gets a ring.


No stuffed cash savings account no, I have between $40,000 - $50,000 in open credit. I know overall its a gamble, but I take the stance that anything with an interest rate higher than my savings bank rate gets paid before I save. I operate with a paychecks worth of spending room, thats more as a failsafe for an accidential double charge or such.

Quality of life spread over the childhood of kids. I plan the budget around firm paychecks. It works, anything else is for smiles.

Not at all

I'm happy where I'm at, cause the house is happy. We don't need to push for middle class. Like I said, Ignorance is Bliss. I know what I don't have, and what to aim for, but I don't need to ge there ASAP.
I don't want a doubling of the tax credit. I originally posted about the $6000 Brandy is getting cause I thought that was a stupid amount. Parents that plan don't need it, and the parents that need it aren't going to use it on their kids.

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If you say that because of your personal experience, then you may be mistaken about everyone else. In the very least, you could use some financial advice and how to separate emotional desires from practical ones. Paying down debt is one of the best things you can do.....

If Brandy wants a ring and a 3 grand vacation, instead of paying down family debt, she needs to re-prioritize. IMO. Take 1/3 of that for a nice local seafood dinner, a weekend at a local Hampton Inn, and a spa massage/pedicure/manicure. Put the rest toward paying off debt. That's a great gift to your kids by teaching them personal responsibility and how to "get ahead".

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I support government assistance to the lower class, but not to stop the middleclass from becoming lower class.

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That makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

No stuffed cash savings account no, I have between $40,000 - $50,000 in open credit. I know overall its a gamble, but I take the stance that anything with an interest rate higher than my savings bank rate gets paid before I save. I operate with a paychecks worth of spending room, thats more as a failsafe for an accidential double charge or such.

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oops I meant to ask this in the last reply. An open credit line isn't the same thing as a debt balance. Pretty much anything is going to have an APR higher than your savings account interest. And operating on just one paycheck for 'failsafe' is a recipe for disaster.

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Quality of life spread over the childhood of kids. I plan the budget around firm paychecks. It works, anything else is for smiles.

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Sorry, but that's just bullshit. If they have a home with 2 loving parents, plenty of nutritious food to eat, good schools to attend and/or decent child care, books to read (free even, from the Library), friends to play with, and access to a doctor for their physicals and vaccinations.....they don't need a Disney Cruise to enrich their lives.

Quality of Life spread out over a childhood can mean camping at a state park, or playing a Monopoly board game with popcorn, or sleeping in a tent in the living room with flashlights and books. Who are you trying to kid here?

The Disney Cruise sounds more like 'keeping up with the Joneses' to me too. And otherwise OG; am I getting it right in thinking that the only reason you were against that raise of the tax-credit for children is good old fashioned class-envy?

Well on principle I'm opposed to the government monkeying around with the tax code to influence behavior. Of course it does make it a bit more financially feasible for me and my wife to have another kid.