I do place the blame for addictions where the blame deserves to be. 100% solely on the person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
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I do place the blame for addictions where the blame deserves to be. 100% solely on the person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Yep, and one part of the brain doesn't differentiate between chemicals. Natural or synthetic, beneficial or harmful, it's all the same. The other part of the brain, the cognitive and conscious parts, are often affected by those chemicals and become altered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
There's actually something called Runner's Syndrome. They have to run, even in pain, during injury, illness or inclement weather. It's not rational but harmful. That's when some start taking numbing pain medications or certain steroid injections. One addiction can lead to another. We've seen this in almost every single athletic sport, from ballet dancers to bicycle racers.
Clearly you don't, because if you did you'd place the blame on the substances and on the body, right down to the receptors :haha: this is logic, Lewk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Anyone can stop taking whatever they are addicted to. If someone fails to do so it is entirely their fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Blame and fault don't serve much purpose in this context. But people do need to have a motivation to do something, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
So, what are you smoking and why don't you stop it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
No, it's the fault of the substance and of biology. You can admit that's true in depression, so clearly you can admit the same for addiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Otherwise please explain why the two are so different in your eyes. Either from a rational and/or scientific perspective, or even from a personal perspective. Is it because you love depressed people and hate addicts?
Loki had it pinned down by post #2. Mental illnesses need to be de-stigmatized.
I've been diagnosed with psychological and emotional "illness", but it's not the same as being able to say "I'm a diabetic" to friends or family. We've come far enough that diabetes or hypertension are understood and accepted by most everyone. Those are recognizable conditions without "illness" in their name. We don't call diabetes a "pancreatic illness". Even cardiovascular "disease" has been replaced with other terminology suitable for saying out loud. "I have high blood pressure" doesn't draw stares.
It's still very hard for me to say out loud to anyone that I have a mental illness or a psychological disease. There's a huge stigma, and people are uncomfortable hearing those words.
:(
Oh, and just so no one feels strange asking.....I have OCD (obsessive compulsive DISORDER), recurrent vegetative depression with abandonment and post-traumatic syndrome DISORDER. yay, just the kind of gal you want to take home and meet the folks!
Disorder, disease, illness. Whatever. I also have cluster headaches http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Clusterhead.jpg restless leg syndrome and a very mild form of Trichotillomania (pulling hair when nervous). I'm quite concerned that all these things might mean I'm headed toward MS or Parkinson's, but there's nothing I can do about that. Doc says I have a slightly higher risk for brain aneurysm, stroke, or other neurological DISORDERS.
They give me meds to knock out the OCD and I'm just a vegetable. They give me meds for depression and I'm still a nervous wreck. I didn't used to be this way, or it was manageable, until I had children, breastfed then started peri-menopause. Then everything went catty wampus. It's very frustrating.
So don't you dare lecture anyone about anything, Lewk. :mad:
Now that I've exposed myself, y'all can freely share your own pretty warts!
Because you can stop being impacted by your addiction through will power and simply stop taking the substance you are addicted to. You can not stop depression simply by will power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Who told you that? Where did you read that? How do you know that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Logic? Common sense? Awareness of the world? People stop smoking all the time. They go through withdrawal and then they are non-smokers if they have any will power. Ditto with alcoholics and drug users, the type of substance will determine the difficulty. Just because something might be difficult doesn't change the fact it is doable by EVERYONE.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Actually it's not. If you feel free to not pay taxes you are. That is until the tax man catches up with you. Addiction on the other hand is always with you, urging you to use, it is the proverbial "Monkey on your back". Not using is a decision just like the one to use, only more difficult, and one that must be made everyday. As time goes on the decision becomes easier, almost subconscious, but still remains. I admit it is not, was not, an easy thing to do. Though I refered to those unable to do it my way as weak, I know that sometimes people need help making this decision. If they honetly seek the help they need and stick to whatever program they're on, they are not weak but merely human.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Perhaps you could read up on things when common sense and logic doesn't pan out. Not all "addictions" are the same, some aren't even related to ingesting substances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
You saying or thinking so doesn't mean it's right.
Of course you can. People recover from depression on their own all the time. Clearly it's doable, by the logic and the awareness you use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Alcohol abuse I think is associated with far more stigma than eg. nicotine addiction. I think that makes it more difficult for alcoholics to get the support they may need in order to recover.
Alcohol withdrawal is more severe than nicotine withdrawal.
Again from what I understand is that you can't just will depression to go away. The same imbalance in your head will remain regardless of circumstances. Sure you can treat symptoms of it but it doesn't just go away. This of course is no fault to the person who had depression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Addiction is completely different. They chose to try to the substance of choice (drug, alcohol, smokes) and they choose to continue to use it.
It comes down to choice. If something is afflicting someone due to their bad choices then of course they should be blamed. If something is afflicting someone through no cause of their own we have no right to blame them. This isn't a complicated idea.
But not all bad choices are, or can be, immediately recognized as such. Sometimes you don't see the error of your ways until you're already in too deep. Blame is not an effective tool. You can't accept the addicts behavior, but blame includes shame, which only drives an addict to escape through using.
No. By the time they're addicted, it's essentially the same as depression or other mental illnesses - they've altered their brain chemistry to the point where most will need some kind of outside help to overcome the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
If you're addicted to a substance with severe withdrawal symptoms you most likely won't be able to make it through on your own. And with "severe" I mean: Very painful, wracking and possibly life-threatening. You'll be paranoid. You'll have hallucinations. You'll be literally mad.
That's not something you can magically wave away with "willpower" or whatever that shit you're touting. After all, there's some evidence that your genes play a role in determining your risk to become an alcoholic. Which means that there are factors outside your control. Which in turn means that your precious "willpower" means squat.
It's an idiotic idea to distinguish between depression and addiction, and shows that you know nothing about neurochemistry.
Do you really think that you made your decision to engage your wife on your own? Do you really think that you chose your friends completely all by your own free will?
If you do, you're badly mistaken. You're only one member of a huge crowd which determines where the voyage goes. Just take a look at what happens when you are drunk - suddenly you say or do things you'd never do when sober. Is the drunk one the real you? The sober one? Are you both? And why did a simple little molecule switch between the two so easily?
Of course there is the somewhat trivial point that no-one gets addicted without being exposed to whatever it is they're addicted to, and often that exposure was by their own choice (eg. someone who doesn't live in Taliban Afghanistan choosing to consume alchol). Well, I suppose it's a trivial point unless one believes strongly and religiously in the therapeutic value of guilt :bulb:
I've never met anyone who is an alcoholic that didn't make the conscious choice to drink. This is the problem with you liberals. You *never* want to place blame where blame belongs. When a criminal does a crime we should pity them because "society" gave them a bad start. When an addict takes another hit of their addiction you say don't blame the addict? Seriously? WTF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Rumrunner:
Who says shame is bad? Shame is a negative impact. People tend to avoid negative things. Therefore associating shame with an activity will cause that activity to be less likely to be done. By removing shame or guilt for a particular action you *INCREASE* the acceptance and likelihood of that action.Quote:
You can't accept the addicts behavior, but blame includes shame, which only drives an addict to escape through using.
If you keep letting addicts off the hook by this pathetic crap of "its not their fault" you enable them.
What actually happens because of such shaming is that they don't seek help ie. they avoid the very things that could help them out of their addiction. That is certainly a negative impact, as you put it. I refer you once again to Loki's first post in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Isn't the whole AA thing anonymous?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Isn't the whole AA thing anonymous?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Relatively anonymous, and AA is in fact very good for those people that can accept its quasi-religious package. But it's not like being anonymous protects against bullying hassling shaming etc. Just look at most of the internet :confused:
I don't think shame and guilt are the most important tools in the AA package.
There, corrected your quote for you. You're barreling completely off the wrong road here. Maybe you should stop and finally engage your brain.Quote:
http://www.theworldforgotten.com/ima...quote_icon.pngWhat Lewkowski should have grasped by now http://www.theworldforgotten.com/ima...post-right.png
I've never met anyone who is an alcoholic that didn't make the conscious choice to begin to drink.
There's a difference between beginning something and continuing something.
I think that to him continuing something is just like beginning it again, with no memory
There might be a difference however it is not a difference that takes any responsibility away. Anyone can stop drinking/smoking/drugs if they choose not to. Is it difficult? Sure. Are there going to be withdrawal symptoms? Sure. This doesn't change the fundamental fact that it is a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Anyone can be undepressed if they choose to.
Interesting fact: there is considerable overlap between depression (and other psychiatric conditions such as anxiety disorders) and addiction, in the sense that many who are depressed become addicted and many who are addicted become depressed.
Wonder how we should deal with them.
How?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
The same way they can choose to be not addicted of course. And since depression is a strong risk factor for substance abuse or addiction they can often kill two birds with one stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
I agree with the will-power point made, but it can be very difficult, it's like choosing to not eat. I Agree sometime when the issues are chemicals that are present on their own accord and not the result of your own thoughts at a given time, may need medication to supplement treatement, but i also contend by in large they too are psychologically conquerable.
An addict can choose not to continue to consume the substance they are addicted too. I'm not seeing the choice the depressed person can make that would eliminate the depression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
But it works through the same mechanisms: Your "free will" overrides the chemical neuropathways which exist in your brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
You're massively underestimating the influence the condition of your brain has on your decisions. With your logic, the effects of alcohol should be non-existant.
Lewk, how do you explain what happens to people if they're drunk?
What a ridiculous analogy; no matter how hard you try not thinking about a missing arm won't grow it back. Not thinking about depression and it's causes does you (me in fact) a lot of good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
I cope, and do so without medication. Sometimes I still get drawn in and then I pick myself up by doing something, anything, that has a beginning an end and a clearly visible result. Not everybody can do that, I am aware of that. So being annoyed with other people whining was not so much about them as it was about me. Just like an alcoholic should stay away from the bottle I should stay away from over-analyzing types.
Any action to deal with the depression would constitute such a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
It's a brilliant analogy. Not dwelling on depression is awesome, but, as you say, not everyone can manage that on their own, esp. when they're in a depressive stage of their illness. They might not need meds, but they may very well need proper guidance for a time, in order to acquire and perfect such coping strategies. Or they might need ECT, you never know :o you have arms, so you're fine :heart:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
I do blame myself, an addict. I also take some measure of pride in my recovery. I am just saying that at some point blame becomes counter-productive to recovery. the addict must know that he is responsible for his/her addiction, but must also feel that he is more than just an addict. Society wishes to label and forget addicts, which does not help anyone.
I am not going to quote everything I am responding to here, so kind of bear with me. This post may seem a bit rambling, but hopefully in the end it will make some sort of sense. :weird:
As much as I hate to admit it, (it almost seems like a character flaw) I have to semi-agree with Lewk. I think addiction, by today's standard, is an overused trend. Everyone wants to have a flippin' excuse for their behavior, and if they can say, "I'm addicted to booze (or meth or whatever) so you can't blame me for beating the old man half to death for $3.50" they have a nifty way of shifting blame from themself to something that can't be questioned or sent to jail or whatever. We seem to have raised a generation of "kids", remember folks some of us have kids as old as you are, who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions! Far too many kids today want to skate thru life. I blame a big part of this on the, oh no, we can't have Jr.'s self esteem harmed, so there can be no winners/losers in the game, we can't tell the kid he needs to drop 30 pounds, or whatever...all in the name of making sure Jr. (who happens to be a whiny, overweight, lazy kid with an IQ of 80) thinks or feels like he is as good as Joe Blow who has a good attitude, exercises daily, and has an IQ of 150.
Actually, smokers are treated worse than a staggering, stumbling, falling down drunk, as long as that drunk doesn't try to drive! Smokers are stigmatized, banished to the elements outside, far worse than a drinker/drunk ever will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Take it from someone who has kicked meth, and is quitting drinking...smoking is far harder to quit than anything else. I find myself wanting a cigarette at the usual times. I try to go walk and take my mind off of smoking, but it's been too cold and icy to walk outside. I am going to start walking at the high school 3 or 4 times a week, but the hours between 3:30 and 9:00 PM are not typically "smoking" times. Right after breakfast, which I now must eat, is the worst!
Lewk, there are genuine addictions. I just don't believe everything is an addiction like some in the medical field and some here do. Those people DO need some form of help! For some reason, you seem to be missing the point that addiction, by it's REAL definition, is a very real illness, just like depression or diabetes or cancer. Some addictions cause severe withdrawl, and should only be attempted with medical supervision. Other, so-called addictions, like booze and cigarettes, can be kicked without help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
I don't believe everyone has the willpower to quit their addiction(s). I think some people (read below) have been pampered and petted and told how wonderful they are, when the opposite is true, to the point they wouldn't know willpower if it bit them in the ass. Others, maybe like me, are stubborn, refusing to let themselves lean on an imaginary crutch such as counseling or meds, and can...sometimes...pull ourselves out of the pit by sheer willpower and determination. I don't claim to know anything about neuro-chemistry, but I do think some people can drink or use a drug, sometimes to excess, without becoming physically addicted to said drug. Maybe the neuro-transmitters, or something like that, have something to do with that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
If you truly believe that AA is anonymous, then come to BFE on a Wed. or Sat. night. I will go with you, and we can walk by the Congregational Church, where, just by the vehicles parked outside, I can tell you who is attending the meeting that night! :( Anonymous my ass! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
For some people, as I understand it, there is no choice after they have become "addicted". They are compelled to use their drug of choice, usually with horrible results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
I tend to have mild depression. It's not bad enough to require meds or counseling, but bad enough that I realize when I am in a funk! My general outlook on life is optimistic, and I really think that helps me overcome the couple times a year I could get depressed. With more severe depression, help is a great thing, whether meds or counseling or both!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
As was posted earlier by GGT and others, we need to take away the stigma of mental health issues. GGT said she isn't comfortable saying she has a mental "illness" but would have no problem saying she has diabetes or heart disease. I see things changing in this respect, but very slowly. Hell, it was only a few years ago that breast or prostate cancers were spoken about in hushed tones. Same with colon cancer, testicular cancer, ovarian cancer, or cervical cancer. Some things just weren't talked about in "polite" company. Notice all of those cancers involve body parts that some think should be hidden away. Well the same can be said about mental illness. We need to realize that, just like cancer or heart disease, mental health is a condition that needs to be discussed.
Do I think some mental illnesses are over diagnosed? Hell Yes! ADHD/ADD in specific. Everyone wants their kid(s) to pay attention to a teacher for 8 hours a day, without realizing that kid needs a break so they can fidget! I do know a kid who has ADHD, along with Bipolar disease, and something else I can't remember right now. His mother has always dealt with it in an open manner, but his teachers and his father want it to be a "secret" so he won't be stigmatized later on in life. This kid is a Jr. in High School this year, and pulls in solid B's for grades. He will never be the straight A student, but at least, thanks to his Mom, his teachers realize he is going to fidget, will need to get up and walk around occasionally, and will need a little more one-on-one instruction than the other kids in the class.
Personally, I think by labeling almost anything as being addictive, the medical and mental health professions are trying to make more money off of us. C'mon...Facebook addiction? :rolleyes: I also think that by labeling such things as addictions, attention to REAL addictions, and mental illnesses in general, are getting short-changed!
As Munchkin said:
"For some people, as I understand it, there is no choice after they have become "addicted". They are compelled to use their drug of choice, usually with horrible results."
But the choice to follow the compulsion is a choice. I quit using meth (not-so) simply by not putting the pipe up to my lips, not 'scoring', not being around other users, by not being a user anymore(though,technically, still an addict). I did it on my own, some people need help from outside sources. as long as they stay the course, the compulsion fades. It can be very terrifying to stop using something so addictive, but the choice is in the hands of the addict not the drug.
For fuck's sake have you never heard of alcohol withdrawal?! :weird:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmunchkin
Very many things have the potential to be abused or be the focus of an addiction. Addiction isn't defined by the focus itself (although anything that has the potential to activate our reward systems, lead to tolerance, and cause withdrawal or abstinence symptoms should be seen as a likely candidate), it's defined by addictive behaviour. Just because you can kick meth on your own (good for you) doesn't mean you can't get addicted to meth. Alcohol abuse and addiction are among the greatest medical and social problems plaguing western societies today and you just want to dismiss it as imaginary? :bulb:
As to the failings you're attributing today's lazy degenerate youth, er, you seemed to be describing yourself :confused: