Would you feel the same if they had converted from one religion to another? And do all religious traditions fit the bill as long as they are illegal in the country the applicant resides but are not illegal in the U.S. ?Quote:
Originally Posted by wiggin
Imagine I'm a nun.
Am I allowed to walk around in France wearing my habit or not?
So my question is....why is home schooling illegal over there? They could just as easily set up certain minimum requirements, to accommodate those who want to home school, like we do in the states.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Some of us don't think it's the best way to get a well-rounded education, but it's probably no worse (and often better) than what some of our public schools offer. Germany got a pretty bad report card for its 8th grade students, last I heard.
I'm almost afraid to ask but what's a not?Quote:
Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
Minimum requirements? You mean like in Georgia, where a high school diploma (or GED) is considered sufficient to educate your child?Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Who cares if they converted one way or another? Their relatively harmless religious belief has become a cause of persecution; it was determined for that specific circumstance by an immigration judge to fit the criteria for asylum. *shrugs*Quote:
Originally Posted by Being
Look, there are plenty of provisos in US asylum laws that allow them to deny people access for any number of reasons, even if they have a legitimate claim to persecution. I'm not going to make some blanket statement since every case is decided individually. But assuming they're not really doing anything wrong, and a government is harassing them as a result of their religion/race/ethnicity/sexual orientation/whatever, why not allow them to come to the US?
Because it implies Germany isn't perfect.
Don't all of our states have GED equivalents? I also thought our states have certain rubrics or guidelines and testing for homeschoolers, but it probably varies by state.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
Seems to me if Germany has a law against home schooling, even if it's not for religious reasons, that's why the family applied for asylum. So why is it illegal?
The Germans are afraid of extremism, and therefore want the state to tightly control any arena where extremism might manifest itself. Ironic, I know.
Is converting in order to seek asylum acceptable?Quote:
Originally Posted by wiggin
Is enforcement of a secular law harassment?
Well we've already seen proof that the education system in Georgia is royally fucked up, but the requirements for homeschooling are quite lax here. There are also some really good homeschooling resources available, but the programs for those tend to fill up really fast, because they are statewide and most counties in Georgia are actually much worse than mine. I mean, I'm against homeschooling in general and I don't blame Marioboy's parents for choosing to do it. I've even considered it for my son, but I actually think the services available to him at school are more valuable than a curriculum that might actually challenge him.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
We could spend days and weeks criticizing the US public educational system, but I'm wondering right now about Germany's. I suppose they don't have many Amish over there, since they stop school after 8th grade or so, and are exempt from many DoE standards. Graven images and all that.
Well since most European educational systems are world's better than ours, somehow I seriously doubt there is any comparison at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Lolli, you're talking about quality of education, I want to know about the legalities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program...ssment#ResultsQuote:
Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
The U.S placed higher on literacy tests.
Math and Science, not so much, but Germany isn't worlds ahead of the U.S like Japan is.
Finland! Nessie! :)
Yes, it was in reading and literacy that Germany didn't do very well, wish I could remember the article I read....
edit: Eureka!
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/18/wo...l?pagewanted=1Quote:
In late 2001, an O.E.C.D. study of literacy skills of 15-year-olds stunned Germany by ranking it 21st out of 27 and among the last in terms of social mobility, even though it has Europe’s largest economy. Two years later, the government, Social Democratic at the time, made available €4 billion, or $5.7 billion, to introduce all-day programs at 10,000 schools by 2009. In the end, some 7,200 schools took part, joining a small existing stock.
Wtf happened to asylum?
Isn't quality of education more important?Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
uhm.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Being
On the first, I would in principle argue that it is not acceptable, but it's awfully hard to prove. Immigration fraud is very common (although it's normally easier and less dangerous just to marry someone, rather than try to get persecuted in your home country), and they try to weed it out. But at the end of the day, if the individual case looks legit, I don't think it matters if they converted or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Being
As for definitions of harassment/persecution - it all comes down to the specifics. I think the state forcibly requiring people to do something that is against their religious beliefs is harassment, yes. But then - what about if the state just fined the parents, rather than having police take their kids to school? I'm not so sure - I'm not an expert on the definitions either in the international protocols or in US immigration law. Obviously, there has to be some line the state crosses. I'm not sure exactly where it is.
Which they're accomplishing by. . . helping German fundies settle in the US? Somehow that doesn't seem to be like it would achieve what you state is their desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
And plenty of Americans tend to bristle in a similar manner when topics like a refusal to extradite come up. Persecution, oppression, human rights abuses, these things when they come up in the West tend to be on the minor side, but the machinery designed to oppose them is, for the most part, deliberately designed to not care about how minor it is, and for good reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
heh, good riddance to bad thrash I'd say.
There is an exemption to the obligation for any person under 16 to attend schooling in an established school (public or non-public) for people who;Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
1. don't have a fixed place of residence;
2. who can't find a school that services their convictions;
3. are mentally or physically disabled in such a way that it prevents them to attend.
That means that maybe I shouldn't have said that it's illegal as such, because there are exemptions. However, given the size of the country, the proliferation of denominational schools it is virtually impossible to claim that you can't find a school that's catering to your particular religious needs. And that means that claims on the basis of that exemption are (near) always rejected. The other exemptions aren't really used, as most people who might use them find other solutions.
In Holland you could easily find two adjacent primary schools serving only slightly different denominations. The differences so slight that if I would try to translate them into English the one would be Reformed Dutch and the other Dutch Reformed.
It was a German family seeking asylum. Are their laws just like Holland's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Even so, Amish wouldn't fit your exclusions either. They 'graduate' after 8th grade around age 14.
They have 17 states that all have their own legislation.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
The age restriction is universal, under 16 years you are obliged to follow schooling. You can't even be employed in jobs that would mean you have to work during schoolhours. And these rules are enforced rigorously.
Exceptions are made for mentally or physically disabled people, or children who move around a lot. Other than that, every child has to attend school. This even extends to non-Germans with residence in Germany (e.g. Asylum seekers or illegals - the schools are expressly requested to not check the legal status of their parents).Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
The European Court of Human Rights did not find fault with the German laws regarding this matter, by the way. http://www.telladf.org/UserDocs/KonradDecision.pdf
The deciding point sounds like compulsory socialization to me. (Not sure why I can't copy parts of the pdf :( )Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Well, and painting Germany as a state which persecutes people for their religion is not a try to apply pressure to the German government?Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
Weird.
Well, I didn't read the verdict of course, but if that's is the case there is not a single constitution - that I know of - that offers protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
And now that I have read it; you are wrong, it is not a deciding point at all. What it states is that these people are claiming rights that don't exist. They almost go as far as saying that these people can't read.
I disagree with the German policy. People should have the right to school their children.
That said, I don't see this as an asylum case. Define "persecution." Sure, under a very liberal definition this is persecution, but most such cases involve people being afraid of torture or death. "Oh noes they make our kids go to excellent schools" seems pretty lame in comparison. It's sort of an insult to people who are really persecuted. Where does the line get drawn?
Again, not sure why I can't copy/paste parts of the pdf......:noob:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
"The court stressed that the decisive point was not whether or not home education was equally effective as primary school education, but that compulsory school attendance require children from all backgrounds in society to gather together......Schools represented society, and it was in the children's best interest to become part of that society. The parents' right to education did not go as far as to deprive their children of that experience."
According to the ECHR parents have the right to school their children, they just don't have the exclusive right to school their children.Quote:
Originally Posted by ']['ear
The court = Baden Wurttemberg Administrative Court of Appeal. All the ECHR says about this is that given the diverse situation in the member states of the Council of Europe and the well argumented reasons for its position, the court stayed within its jurisdiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
The ruling says; homeschooling is not a right protected under the Convention.
I think your characterization of their intent and the article are more negative than is accurate, and as such no, I do not think they're trying to apply pressure on the German government with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
It gets drawn in a broad, inclusive manner because that's the only way to guarantee we help the people we all really want to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by ']['ear
Yeah, I got that. I disagree with the notion that the state has more rights over the social assimilation of a child than their parent or guardian. It smacks to me of forced socialization, using schools (whether private or public) as the tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
So, you'd applaud introducing the Shari'a?Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Bravo.
Oh come now, don't put words in my mouth. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
I'm trying to keep this in the context of homeschooling. Germany seems to think there's no place for it, and I disagree. It doesn't even have to do with religion. In the states you can live in the wild west and homeschool, even if there's a school 10 miles away. Ditto for city dwellers.
We've got loonies, weirdos, social misfits, criminals, and terrorists all over the world, but I'm pretty sure it's not homeschooling (or even social isolation) that's the cause.
That's nice that you think that way. However, the fact that HSLDA lawyer Mike Donnelly pulled a Godwin paints a slightly different view.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
http://www.hslda.org/hs/internationa.../201001260.asp
So, maybe next time, you should inform yourself about the positions of the people you're defending? Classic case of "Open Mouth, Insert Foot".Quote:
[...]“It is embarrassing for Germany, since a Western nation should uphold basic human rights, which include allowing parents to raise and educate their own children. This judge understood the case perfectly, and he called Germany out. We hope this decision will cause Germany to stop persecuting homeschoolers,” he added.
"[...]This is simply about the German state trying to coerce ideological uniformity in a way that is frighteningly reminiscent of past history.
[...]Germany’s treatment of homeschooling families is worthy of condemnation from the international community.[...]"
"[...]Germany is in the company of countries like China, North Korea and others where fundamental human rights are not respected.[...]"
"[...]We hope that the decision will send a clear message to authorities in Germany to make changes right away!”[...]
I could see a case to be made if they argued with quality of teaching. However, their bone lies with the content. Thus they have no case.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
And of course you seem to have this notion of a " uniform German society". There's no such thing. Bavaria (and it's rather diverse subparts) is quite different from Lower Saxony or Rhineland-Palatinate or Swabia.
How do you interpret the portions I quoted? I take it to mean the parents' beef is with the method of teaching. They might find a Christian Fundamentalist school, but that's not what they want, for whatever reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
The German courts could also decide that genius parents with PhDs in Education and Child Development couldn't homeschool their kids, because they won't get that "socialization with other children" the state is requiring.
I don't have a certain notion of German Society. I also posted a link to an article about Germany changing its ideas on pre-school and kindergarten and all-day school vs half-day. Seems that parents of young children have valued "learning at home" and "learning from parents" for a long time, in the way early child ed was structured....