Voter Photo ID -- Is It Really Terrible?

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Originally Posted by Loki

The US is the only Western country where you have to register to vote despite being a citizen.

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What!?

We have to register to vote, and renew the registration annually. Deadline to register is normally a month before polling day.

How could you remotely avoid fraud without having a registration?

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

The idea that minorities are somehow uniquely unable to procure identification is almost offensive.

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Its not solely assuming minorities based on color, but several factors that favor heavily against minorities.

Here is some research for you (pdf), since you have this thing against the NYTimes having an opinion on it. That shows how the citizens likely to vote democratic are most likely to be negatively impacted by increased restrictions on voter ID laws.

So instead of crying about it being offensive, how about some numbers?

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

And yes, I would support waiving processing costs for basic state ID cards.

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Even if this is the case, which (as shown earlier) the states try to get around, there are still hurdles and fees in trying to get the correct paperwork in order to get a state ID.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

How could you remotely avoid fraud without having a registration?

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Do you suggest countries without registration have a high amount of fraud?

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Originally Posted by Flixy

I'm sure they have broad opening hours in the US, too.

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The norm is 8, some states closing as early as 6. Seeing how we spread across several time zones we can watch where states fall hours before the polls close on the west.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

What!?

We have to register to vote, and renew the registration annually. Deadline to register is normally a month before polling day.

How could you remotely avoid fraud without having a registration?

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Over here you are automatically registered to vote if you are a citizen living in the Netherlands. You simply get your voting card sent to your home two weeks in advance or so. Bring it to the polling station, with an ID, and that's all you need.

Not sure how it works if you live abroad TBH, I suspect you have to register at the embassy/consulate.

Do you guys have advertising campaigns reminding people to register?

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Originally Posted by Flixy

Over here you are automatically registered to vote if you are a citizen living in the Netherlands. You simply get your voting card sent to your home two weeks in advance or so. Bring it to the polling station, with an ID, and that's all you need.

Not sure how it works if you live abroad TBH, I suspect you have to register at the embassy/consulate.

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If you've not registered, how do they know where you live?

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Do you guys have advertising campaigns reminding people to register?

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Yes.

OG: You didn't address my point above (or I missed it if you did). What about simply requiring everyone to vote to bring with them a valid passport? Surely voting security is every bit as important as that for air travel?

I'm going on holiday next week flying from Manchester to London Gatwick, then from Gatwick to the Dominican Republic. When I do I'll be required to bring my passport with me - simply to get some sunshine for a few weeks, but to choose the next government the identity restrictions are so much lighter?

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Thanks for the clarification :up: from what I've read, eliminating the registration step or at least allowing election day registration would increase turnout by 5-10%. It's not much but significant enough for me to wonder why all states don't allow election day registration yet.

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Average turnout in Western European elections is 65-70%, so getting rid of registration would make the American presidential turnout roughly the same as turnout for key European elections.

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I also don't understand why you guys can't just have your elections on a day when most people aren't supposed to be at work.

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Tradition. :o I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes; a lot of people have the day off (it's a national holiday), and the polls are open all day.

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But anyway, thanks for the clarification like I said :) If you or anyone come across any discussion of the consequences and implications of low voter turnout, do let me know. I can't help but feel as if a democracy with low participation is a democracy in trouble.

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Minorities and the poor are somewhat less likely to vote as a result (they're not as good at making sure they register on time). It probably wouldn't make a wild difference, but might lead to a 1-2% swing in favor of the Democrats.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

What!?

We have to register to vote, and renew the registration annually. Deadline to register is normally a month before polling day.

How could you remotely avoid fraud without having a registration?

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I stand corrected, though it's actually 2 weeks for Britain: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/p...10/8625136.stm

Also, Britain has one of the lowest turnouts in Western Europe.

Loki, you didn't respond to my post challenging your claim that yours is the only nation requiring registration.

Didn't realise it was a national holiday :o - but many people don't get national holidays off. What matters more IMO is the opening hours, how long are they open for?

In the UK the polls are traditionally held on a Thursday, while they open at 7am and close at 10pm - it doesn't matter if you're working on that Thursday realistically you'll be able to vote in that 13 hour window.

I know I'm supposed to object to voter ID laws based on OG's arguments.

I don't, though.

If someone is interacting with society enough that they want to go vote, they are probably interacting with society enough that they need a photo ID for multiple things. I would say that I think that every state should give certified copies of birth certificates for free, and make it as easy and painless as possible to get the photo ID required. Georgia offers a free voter ID card, but it does take a birth certificate.

It really ought to be possible to walk into your health department or county courthouse and request a certified copy of your birth certificate from any state, and if they can't computerize this safely then the local office should be able to make a phone call and have it sent, by priority mail (signature required) to the location of the requester's choice, free of charge.

Georgia also allows you to use an expired GA license.

I'd agree with everything you wrote Lolli, but switch getting a birth certificate for free to getting a birth certificate cheaply and easily. You really should be able to get it anywhere you mentioned, but I don't see why a small nominal charge (say $10 or $20 tops) to cover reasonable out of pocket expenses shouldn't be levied. That should easily be enough to print/copy a copy and download/email/post it.

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Originally Posted by Loki

a lot of people have the day off (it's a national holiday),.

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define "a lot". I don't know of any major businesses that are closed, or even close early on voting day. I've never been given the day off, that I can remember, and I can't recall any of my friends being able to get it off either.

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Originally Posted by littlelolligagged

I would say that I think that every state should give certified copies of birth certificates for free, and make it as easy and painless as possible to get the photo ID required. Georgia offers a free voter ID card, but it does take a birth certificate.

It really ought to be possible to walk into your health department or county courthouse and request a certified copy of your birth certificate from any state, and if they can't computerize this safely then the local office should be able to make a phone call and have it sent, by priority mail (signature required) to the location of the requester's choice, free of charge.

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This is what I'm saying, I have no problem in trying to reduce fraud, but it needs to be done in a manner not to leave anyone behind.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

but I don't see why a small nominal charge (say $10 or $20 tops)

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and when you're requesting your birth certificate from out of state, how would one go about paying this fee when they don't have credit cards or a banking account?
This is why I mentioned earlier about the states needing to do better about communicating this information between themselves. Florida has no office that helps the public interface with other state departments.

I'd even go as far as to say $20 could be a hardship, Brandy's share of cost for Medicaid is less than that.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Average turnout in Western European elections is 65-70%, so getting rid of registration would make the American presidential turnout roughly the same as turnout for key European elections.

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Ah I was hoping they'd aim for the 80%+ you see in Scandinavia :o

If I've understood you correctly, turnout is esp. low in elections where you have to vote on senators and representatives. Aren't those the elections where you'd hope for the greatest turnout, given that they're supposed to be more in touch with their constituency?

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Tradition. :o I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes; a lot of people have the day off (it's a national holiday), and the polls are open all day.

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Hmm that's surprising, because according to wikipedia it isn't much of a holiday:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electio...%29#Objections

Of course there's nothing to say the people who don't get the day off are likely to belong to some particular demographic.

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Minorities and the poor are somewhat less likely to vote as a result (they're not as good at making sure they register on time). It probably wouldn't make a wild difference, but might lead to a 1-2% swing in favor of the Democrats.

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I read that in at least one case (the only one I know of) it led to a slight advantage for Republicans! Regardless of which party benefits, it's nice if more voters benefit.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Ah I was hoping they'd aim for the 80%+ you see in Scandinavia :o

If I've understood you correctly, turnout is esp. low in elections where you have to vote on senators and representatives. Aren't those the elections where you'd hope for the greatest turnout, given that they're supposed to be more in touch with their constituency?

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A) The federal government usurped most of the state and local powers over the last century, so that's not as true as it once was (when it was true, turnout for local and state elections was higher than for national ones).
B) People are more knowledgeable about national candidates than local ones due to the media attention given to the former and the amount of ads paid by them.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

This is what I'm saying, I have no problem in trying to reduce fraud, but it needs to be done in a manner not to leave anyone behind.

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Well everyone can get a passport, so that's fine then :)

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and when you're requesting your birth certificate from out of state, how would one go about paying this fee when they don't have credit cards or a banking account?
This is why I mentioned earlier about the states needing to do better about communicating this information between themselves. Florida has no office that helps the public interface with other state departments.

I'd even go to say $20 could be a hardship, Brandy's share of cost for Medicaid is less than that.

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A: Get a bank or credit card, ridiculous not to have one in the 21st century. If you don't, fine pay more to get a postal order sent or some other alternative.
B: $20 may be awkward, but how often do you need to get a new birth certificate issued? Even if you did every year (which you don't) it'd be 5 cents a day.

Seriously?

Your solution is to get a passport that many (if not most) Americans would never actually use? When expense is one of the reasons some people could be conceivably left behind?

http://travel.state.gov/passport/fees/fees_837.html

Is voting less important than air travel to you?

I don't need a passport to travel by air in the United States.

Also, the people we are discussing for whom the cost of ID and any associated costs are too much probably aren't doing a lot of domestic air travel, either.

The problem with your argument is that I have no objection to voter photo ID laws. I'm not being a very good liberal for saying so, and I know it, but I think they are reasonably easy to obtain with minimal cost. I think it should be no cost (or perhaps no cost with some demonstrable financial hardship, but that opens cans of worms I don't want to play with).

I even said that, up there somewhere. The idea that a passport is a reasonable alternative is absurd, though.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Tradition. :o I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes; a lot of people have the day off (it's a national holiday), and the polls are open all day.

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Loki, what country are you talking about?

Freaking New Yorkers thinking they're the whole of the universe

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

If you've not registered, how do they know where you live?

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As I said, your register once where you live, each time you move. But you need to do that anyway so it is not related with voting. As I see it you have to renew it each year and in the US AFAIK for each voting. As I see it, this is a big difference.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

Loki, what country are you talking about?

Freaking New Yorkers thinking they're the whole of the universe

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"California Elections Code Section 14000 provides that employees otherwise unable to vote must be allowed two hours off with pay, at the beginning or end of a shift." :o

More reasons why the vote is on a Tuesday:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electio...tates)#History

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

As I said, your register once where you live, each time you move. But you need to do that anyway so it is not related with voting. As I see it you have to renew it each year and in the US AFAIK for each voting. As I see it, this is a big difference.

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Why do you have to register where you live?

We renew our registration annually. The process is quite simple though, if no details have changed especially you can renew on an automated phone system.

Your quote isn't in your link, but from Googling it:

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electio...United_States)
Election Day is a civic holiday in some states, including Delaware, Hawaii, Kentucky, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, and West Virginia. Some other states require that workers be permitted to take time off from employment without loss of pay. California Elections Code Section 14000 provides that employees otherwise unable to vote must be allowed two hours off with pay, at the beginning or end of a shift.

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So in other words: Not a national holiday.

Blame the rest of the nation. :o

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Originally Posted by Loki

"California Elections Code Section 14000 provides that employees otherwise unable to vote must be allowed two hours off with pay, at the beginning or end of a shift." :o

More reasons why the vote is on a Tuesday:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electio...tates)#History

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A mandate to provide 2 hours off, if employees cannot otherwise manage to vote, in no way, shape, or form resembles a federal holiday. This was you, with the usual self-centered insularity of the New Yorker which you often display, thinking that conditions in New York *where the state did declare a civil work holiday* must naturally be universal.

My God, the New York really is just like London.

And for the avoidance of doubt, London is just one city and not our entire country.

That's a lie. England is a city in London.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

I don't see why a small nominal charge (say $10 or $20 tops) to cover reasonable out of pocket expenses shouldn't be levied.

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I don't see that as any different to the charge the last government was going to put on the ID cards they were going to make everyone have.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

And for the avoidance of doubt, London is just one city and not our entire country.

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I don't think Londoners got that memo. A man was on PM saying exactly the opposite of that the other day "London is England". No. It isn't.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

I don't see that as any different to the charge the last government was going to put on the ID cards they were going to make everyone have.

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Very different.

For one thing you don't have to carry your birth certificate with you 24/7 then pay to get it replaced if its lost.
For another you don't need it at all, just if you want it and you don't have it you can pay for a replacement.

You do need it if you want to vote, apparently, which a very fundamental right. If you're going to be saying to people "you need to have this in order to be able to vote" then you have no business charging for it as well. That is no different from directly charging people for voting.

You don't need your birth certificate to vote, you need it to get ID which you need to vote.

Just because something is a fundamental right does not mean that there might not be administrative costs associated with it. Should I expect the state to provide a taxi to take me to and from the polling booth?

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You don't need your birth certificate to vote, you need it to get ID which you need to vote.

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There should be some form of freely available acceptable identification if identification is going to be a prerequisite for voting.

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Should I expect the state to provide a taxi to take me to and from the polling booth?

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If you are required by the state to arrive at the polling booth in a Taxi then, yes, they should pay for it.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

There should be some form of freely available acceptable identification if identification is going to be a prerequisite for voting.

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Why?

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If you are required by the state to arrive at the polling booth in a Taxi then, yes, they should pay for it.

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How does the state or you expect me to get to the polling booth, which for some could be many miles from where they live?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Why?

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Because otherwise you're effectively charging people for voting.

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How does the state or you expect me to get to the polling booth, which for some could be many miles from where they live?

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Walk. Get a lift with a friend. Vote by post. Nominate someone to vote for you by proxy. etc.

RB, if we can require time off or declare public holidays to facilitate voting then it feels like waiving the fees required to register and to obtain ID should be seen as, well, small potatoes.

I agree, it probably isn't a big deal expenditure-wise. And would at least mitigate the issue of people who just don't seem to have ID. Though I don't think it should impede the passage of simple voter ID improvements, considering how much in our society depends on some sort of photo ID.

Exactly. Just toss this in with the healthcare package you're giving everyone :noob:

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Why do you have to register where you live?

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Mostly because of taxes. Otherwise everyone would pay their taxes in the cheapest municipality.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

I agree, it probably isn't a big deal expenditure-wise. And would at least mitigate the issue of people who just don't seem to have ID. Though I don't think it should impede the passage of simple voter ID improvements, considering how much in our society depends on some sort of photo ID.

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I don't know about you, but I only need photo ID if a cop pulls me over in my car, or if I fly on a plane. If your impression is that American society depends on photo ID so much, it's either your NYC culture or your particular job requirements.