I'm not sure it would be one or the other, but I have not had coffee yet.
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I'm not sure it would be one or the other, but I have not had coffee yet.
I don't see why not. If the Police find out there's a rape then they should have a duty to tell/investigate the parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veldan Rath
Doesn't mean the parents should have any say whatsoever in an abortion of course as that's neither here nor there. It should be pretty simple to devise a system whereby suspected child abuse is investigated AND the child can have an abortion without parental consent. There is no relation between one and the other.
Besides it was my uninformed opinion that medical staff had a legal duty to inform the Police if they thought that a crime (including Statutory Rape) has been commited. Certainly seen a large number of both hospital-based and law-based American TV dramas where that is always the case. Like Law & Order: SVU and House etc.
Lewk seems to think that Statutory Rape ought to be investigated by the parents and somehow involving a foetus and not by the Police which is just bizarre.
Careful Rand our you will be lumped in as a Soldier in the War Against Women!
Que?
Liberals in America want 14 year old girls to be able to have an abortion without their parents ever finding out - no questions asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
You know that depends on a state's laws, Lewk. :rolleyes:
Do you think the state should require sexually active 14 yr olds to have parental consent for birth control?
Really? Like, it'll be forbidden to give them abortions after asking questions? :bulb: Really really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
So?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
I'd like to see a source on that. Again I believe the medical staff are obliged to inform the Police in the event of Stat Rape and I don't believe American Liberals want to overturn that.Quote:
no questions asked.
Laws vary from state to state and the duty to report varies from case to case. There's usually only a duty to report in cases where there is reason to suspect violence and abuse; age-difference alone doesn't necessary suffice.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Statutory Rape is by definition child abuse.
Consensual 15-15 relationships aren't stat rape AFAIK.
Any source on the notion that Liberals want to overturn duty to report [to the Police not parents] laws though?
Its interesting to see you mention 15-15, but most states have hard lines on sexual relations between students in the same school, as low as a single year (which could mean birthdays only days apart). Delaware (10 years prison), Georgia (20 years), Michigan (15 years), Oregon (5 years) if 16 for the victim, Idaho sets the age at 18 for the victim (up to life in prison); all these take no consideration on how old the other party is.
The list gets even crazier when you look into which states restrict relationships based on the age difference of 2 years.
I'm assuming Lewk is taking the position of people with sense being against these types of laws (and punishments) and twisting it in his fucked up mind to think those people are against reporting possible abuse.
Wrt the duty to report it as such I believe it is or was until fairly recently about 50-50 in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
They'd need evidence of that first.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Several states have 0 parental notification about minors getting an abortion. And lol if you think planned parenthood is going to volunteer anything to anyone.
Do you have proof that Planned Parenthood violates any State reporting laws? :donkey:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Please answer my question.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
http://www.liveaction.org/planned-pa...iolations-map/Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
I'm sure you'll say the site is biased but you can research each on one on your own. And that's just the one's reported. Keep in mind that Planned Parenthood AND the minor both have an incentive to be quiet so its likely that they get away with it thousands of times.
As far as birth control - I'm on the fence in some ways. Birth Control isn't as invasive like abortion however it can lead to death and really parents should know when their kids are taking body altering drugs. I'm sure you would be OK for parental notification of hydrocodone but I have a feeling you are really against notification of birth control. But now we are talking about consent and notification - I'm talking specifically about notification.
On a broader scale - how much control should parent's have over children's lives? Children are the legal and ethical responsibility of their parents. If a child defaces property the parent has to pay for it. If the child wishes to go out to a party the parent has the right to restrict that child's freedom to go. At what age can a child stop having to obey their parents?
Example - At the age of 5 if a child wishes to go outside to play a parent can say no and enforce their decree. At 14 can a parent physically restrain a child from going outside and getting a ride to a party? Depending on how you answer will depend on you view the issue of parents taking an active role in preventing their children from having sex and being abused via statutory rape.
Out of those pins only 2 point to the failure of an individual worker in their duty to report or get concent on an underage abortion (of those one was reported 6 months later). Most of those pins are either setups, like the highly edited over the top one that brought so much attention to planned parenthood a few years back, or fishy conversations concerning funding drives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
A nationwide service that helps millions of women and you brought up 2 examples of poor handling, and you're using that to claim "that they get away with it thousands of times." :bulb:
More than 2 and furthermore the incentives are for the child getting the abortion and Planned Parenthood to not tell the parents. And sting operations handled by police or reporters are one of the best ways to learn if maleficence is occurring due to the aforementioned incentives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_827886.html
What's more, liveaction does not consider the larger number of incidents that ARE reported appropriately.
I was wrong. There is only 1. From 1998, Phoenix Arizona, when the clinic performed an abortion on a 13 year old. The other case involved the girl's father and sexual abuse. The worker there failed to notify the authorities of the abuse. Which is not the same of your original claim of "not tell the parents"Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Edit:
After reading the source article, the abuse was coming from the foster father who took her to planned parenthood. This was again a case of the abuse not being reported to the proper authorities.
So thats zero cited cases of planned parenthood performing abortions without parent concent or approval where required by law.
http://www.lifenews.com/2010/12/08/state-5726/
"The case was brought by parents whose minor daughter had an abortion at a Planned Parenthood facility without their knowledge after being sexually abused by her adult coach.
The parents allege that Planned Parenthood failed to comply with the statute requiring reports of known or suspected child abuse as well as Ohio’s parental consent statute."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
So we are possibly up to 1, nationwide, and you're staking your claim "that they get away with it thousands of times" based on this (thus far) unresolved case.Quote:
Hurley also told the newspaper there is one more issue remaining to be resolved in courts — the matter of whether Planned Parenthood violated state law requiring abortion centers to notify parents when their teenager daughter is considering an abortion.
[...]
The girl in the case provided an incorrect phone number to Planned Parenthood officials for notification. Instead of giving the abortion center her parents’ phone, she gave the number for her 22-year-old boyfriend — her soccer coach John Haller.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/par...he-state-line/
"In the other twelve states, where an abortionist can perform this invasive procedure on a minor without either of that girl’s parents knowing, it doesn’t matter if the girl is a local resident or from out of state. It also doesn’t matter if your daughter is accompanied across state lines by the coercive adult father of her child -- your grandchild can be aborted without you even being aware of it.
Moreover, this could have been stopped by now.
In 2005 and 2006, both houses of Congress passed versions of the Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act (CIANA). This measure would have made it illegal to transport a minor to another state for the purpose of avoiding a state’s parental notification or consent for abortion law. It would have protected parents’ rights and protected girls from adult abusers who don’t want evidence of their abuse to survive.
In accordance with normal lawmaking procedure, the slightly different versions of the bills passed by the House and Senate were to be worked out by a conference committee so that a single bill could go to the President to sign. But Senate Democrats, led by then Minority Leader Harry Reid, blocked the conference committee from being called.
Attempting to reassert the rights of the majority, the House again passed the CIANA legislation in 2006. Senator Harry Reid responded by staging a filibuster so that the bill could not even be considered by the Senate. When a cloture vote was taken to end the filibuster and allow a vote, Senator Reid twisted enough Democrats’ arms so that only 57 Senators agreed – three short of the 60 needed. A minority of pro-abortion zealots in the Senate prevented CIANA’s passage."
Without a doubt a big group of liberals do not want parental consent or notification laws for children getting abortions.
I'm sure there are others but in the VAST majority of cases how would anyone find out? The child will probably not speak unless some complications arise. Planned parenthood definitely has no reason to report themselves. Its like saying jay walking is super rare because few people are fined, or ticketed for it. When the reality is it occurs all the time. I'm not comparing the two in terms of the wrongness just in reporting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
When are you going to stop having daily sex with hamsters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Moreover, the failure was wrt due diligence, specifically relying on misleading information from the girl (phone number to the boyfriend who posed as the father and later as the brother) and possibly also the lack of a meeting 24h beforehand.Quote:
She indicated the abortion practitioner for Planned Parenthood of Southwest Ohio breached the legal requirement by not meeting with the girl 24 hours prior to the abortion, as stipulated by the state’s informed consent statute, to explain to her the alternatives available to her.
“I think it’s the first time ever Planned Parenthood has been in breach of that order,” Brain Hurley, the attorney representing the teen, told the Cincinnati Inquirer newspaper. “The question now is what (money) damages do we get? We believe it will be a significant number.”
HOW DID YOU KNOW? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4130041AAWKlY3
So what!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
So what? This. By allowing minors to get abortions without parental notification you enable statutory rape. Why is this in the thread? Because GGT brought up a statutory rape up and asked if I was similarly disgusted and I pointed out that it was liberals who enabled and defended rapists like Roman Polanski. I believe we've come full circle now.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
By allowing homeschooling you enable child abuse
No that's just not true. Parental consent has fuck all to do with statutory rape. Reporting to Police is to do with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
So long as the issue is reported to the Police how does denying a child an abortion if parents don't consent have ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with stat rape?
In some places if you report to the police or CPS without notifying the parents first you may be at risk of being sued (successfully). I don't remember exactly how or why, sounded scary though :o
Except it's not reported to the police unless the child explicitly states that the father is overage.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Yeah, it's a biased web site. They include health/safety violations -- like the kind every Hospital is occasionally cited for after JCAH or State Health Board inspections. That's vastly different from rape/sexual abuse reporting laws. :donkey:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
The one in CT titled "Failure to Report Sexual Abuse" was a missing 15 year old, who'd been held captive by an adult man and two adult women, locked in a small room for a year, and impregnated. Planned Parenthood released the fetal tissue for DNA comparison, proving the kidnapper was her rapist, and court evidence to convict the creep! While it would have been great if the intake interview had identified her as a victim of kidnap/rape/imprisonment....the girl might have been concerned about being able to terminate her rapist's pregnancy if she'd confided the situation, gotten dragged into the legal system, and delayed the abortion.
Would you have preferred the State make the decision, by requiring her parents be notified and give consent before her abortion? Really?
Can't wait to see the web site you'd use as "proof" that birth control leads to death, or that it means "body altering drugs". :rolleyes: Seriously, there are plenty of non-hormonal alternatives to The Pill, including barrier methods like IUDs or diaphragms. But those have to be inserted/fitted/subscribed by a physician...not as simple as OTC one-size-fits-most male condoms.. :donkey:Quote:
As far as birth control - I'm on the fence in some ways. Birth Control isn't as invasive like abortion however it can lead to death and really parents should know when their kids are taking body altering drugs. I'm sure you would be OK for parental notification of hydrocodone but I have a feeling you are really against notification of birth control. But now we are talking about consent and notification - I'm talking specifically about notification.
Since you're so concerned with parental notification -- Do you think teenaged males should need a permission slip from their parents to buy Trojans at the local gas station?
Talk about tangents. I realize you're a parent of a toddler....but your "broader scale" sounds like worries of a new father that tends toward control-freak. Hate to burst your paternalistic bubble, but there's no way to prevent a teenager from being sexual, experimenting with or engaging in sex (that doesn't always mean intercourse, ya know.) Well, unless you raise them as hermits, secluded and isolated from the larger world, devoid of any trust. And if you think it's okay to use physical force to restrain your 14 year old from leaving the house....that's not just abusive, but bad parenting. :donkey:Quote:
On a broader scale - how much control should parent's have over children's lives? Children are the legal and ethical responsibility of their parents. If a child defaces property the parent has to pay for it. If the child wishes to go out to a party the parent has the right to restrict that child's freedom to go. At what age can a child stop having to obey their parents?
Example - At the age of 5 if a child wishes to go outside to play a parent can say no and enforce their decree. At 14 can a parent physically restrain a child from going outside and getting a ride to a party? Depending on how you answer will depend on you view the issue of parents taking an active role in preventing their children from having sex and being abused via statutory rape.
There's something wrong with this particular "pro-life" crowd. They demand parental rights, while denying their own daughters the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
No, I gave another example of disgust in rape sentences that didn't fit the crime. I didn't even post in this mess of a thread until you mentioned my name, and said lol when will GGT blame it on globalization. You're the one who started the circle-jerk. :donkey:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
http://www.theworldforgotten.com/sho...l=1#post143489
And if the child carries another child to term then does it get reported to the Police if they don't say that? If not I fail once more to see how abortion is relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Furthermore there is a very simple solution which is to require the reporting of all underage pregnancies (abortion or not) and let the Police find out if any crime has been committed. I believe under the same logic medical staff are also supposed to report GSWs and I don't see the difference.
You still brought up the statutory rape case and my point still stands that liberals are far more lenient and make excuses for rapists like Polanski.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Not simple, and not a solution. GSWs are life-threatening, and victims can't avoid medical care. Bullet wounds come with the automatic presumption that a crime has been committed -- it's never a 'natural state' like pregnancies can be. That's why healthcare providers have a duty to report to Police. Surely you see the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Besides, to identify an underage pregnancy, all pregnancies would have to be treated as potentially criminal. And if physicians are seen as an extension of the Police, that would drive millions of pregnant women away from pre-natal care. Bad idea.