It's never a good idea to defer security updates. It's better to have a non-functioning system than a system which sends every keystroke (and thus passwords) to another guy.
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It's never a good idea to defer security updates. It's better to have a non-functioning system than a system which sends every keystroke (and thus passwords) to another guy.
So, let me get this straight. The only updates that will be mandatory on Windows 10 home are security updates?
Am I talking Chinese?Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
No, what you're doing is talking exclusively about security updates and about versions above the home edition, while I'm talking about all updates and windows 10 home edition. So I guess you might say you're speaking Khenese.
I'm not sure how to make this any clearer.
Again:
Home edition => No choice whatsoever
Editions above => Ability to defer upgrades, security updates mandatory.
I even included a link which goes into all the details. Next time I won't bother.
I simply did not realise your post was directed toward RB because I'd missed his follow-up question and I therefore experienced psychological discomfort at your reply's lack of relevance to my post.
5 machines, reservations set as different times in the past month, none are updating. Even forced my desktop machine to check for updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
You can force the upgrade:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/soft...load/windows10
Download the tool and select "Ugrade this machine now" (or create an upgrade medium, whatever you like).
After you did that, run "cleanmgr", select "Clean System Files" and select "Previous Windows Installation" and "Temporary Installation Files" (or whatever it's called in English) to get rid of some unneeded GB on the disc.
I installed it this morning. Process was pretty painless. Haven't had time to try things out for real. I had planned to upgrade anyway because I had some problems in the starting up of the old setup. I like the clean look of Edge by the way.
I understand that separate protection isn't really necessary ?
So if Microsoft decides to FUBAR the OS in the future like Windows 8 then the customer has no choice what to do with their machine? That is a disgraceful attitude.
Khen as for your arrogant assertion that it is a good-thing that automatic security upgrades are non-negotiable I disagree. For a long time the recommended settings have been that upgrades are done automatically and a customer has had to actively over-ride that to disable automatic updates. You may think security trumps every other concern, that's your choice. I may think stability trumps Microsoft's vision of security, that until now has been my choice.
Windows 8 was such a disaster with such a low-takeup rate as it flopped and customers didn't want it - that the right answer to that mistake is to compel future disasters like that with no choice to even postpone them let alone turn them down altogether?
I think I'll still upgrade, especially my 8 Laptop but may keep 7 for now on my newer PC. Hopefully MS backtracks on this decision but I doubt it.
Looks like they changed their minds about the forced update stuff.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyle...orced-updates/
What a problematic solution. You can either install automatically without a choice, or you can hide updates altogether. Whatever happened to good old fashioned "show me and let me decide like a sentient adult" or whatever the setting was formally called? :rolleyes:
Looks like pre-release a so-called "security" patch has already caused problems: http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonke...rity-problems/
Again I put stability over what MS defines as security, that is a sentient choice that is and should be mine. I hope MS backtracks on this nonsense.
Well, have fun with 0-day exploits then. I've dealt with people like you often enough, so I'm talking from actual experience here.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
In fact, we actually banned people like you from our network.
We're talking about "take all my money" exploits here, dimwit.
hot damn, this new Edge browser. Gotta give it the Borat seal of approval
http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/390/585...ike-d5c27d.jpg
Then again, the edge browser doesn't seem to play completely smoothly with the quick reply box, gives me the "are you sure you want to leave, edits will be lost" at random times after pushing post.
That sounds like the same nonsense Chrome was giving me on Win7 last night. It's not happened today tough, so I'm not sure what may have caused it.
Yes big whoop tell someone who gives a shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
I've dealt with flawed or incompatible updates breaking software that works often enough, so I'm talking from actual experience here.
http://36.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6...yzdo1_1280.jpgQuote:
In fact, we actually banned people like you from our network.
We're talking about "take all my money" exploits here, dimwit.
Have I requested access to your network? Keep your network and your priorities to yourself, I'd rather keep my own priorities.
Laptop didn't blow up so I'm going to update my main rig. Nvidia surround, hacked sound drivers for dolby over optical...should be interesting.
At the very worst I'll have to get new headphones, but $40 for some G35s ain't bad.
Rand, then you also don't get to complain when a page you want to use goes down due to a DDOS. Because this attitude of yours is what makes them possible in the first place.
"Herp, I'm so smart, derp!"
In fact, I'd really like to see it when ISPs all over the world took down customers' access when they begin to spew forth crap.
Sometimes the aspies in IT forget that the main purpose of IT is to make life better for the user and that anything that has a negative impact on usability must be carefully weighed against the expected gain. It'd be funnier if this attitude problem didn't routinely lead to many billions of crowns and thousands of hours wasted, a portion of which comes out of my limited life and energy :o obviously updates will reduce a user's vulnerability to 0-day exploits, mslware etc. However, when advocating for updates that may also run the risk of rendering the user's computer unusable, thus imposing a cost on the user in the form of lost productivity, lost leisure time, increased anger and maybe even service costs, one would do well to remember that updates will not make your computer invulnerable and that 0-day exploits can be used in the wild before MS catches on and finally that windows isn't the only software on a Windows pc that makes the pc vulnerable.
What's funny of course is that businesses and other enterprise users get to opt out :D
Again: I think an empty bank account is a slightly bigger problem than 30 minutes of lost time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Maybe that's because they're actually paying IT guys. Again, I've seen enough Trojans, Worms and viruses to last a lifetime. For instance, this one cropped up repeatedly:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus_(malware)
Yep, upgrade broke the sound drivers, Nvidia surround works horribly now (taskbar won't stay locked, windows no longer dock to a full single screen), and my PlayStation Eye isn't recognized.
I think I like it, so far.
Upgrading on my PC with media center was a pain in the ass, though. It wanted me to confirm I knew it would be gotten rid of, but wouldn't let me click it or move on. I finally just kept my files and not my settings/apps. Which has led to all sorts of irritation.
Ahahaha "30 minutes of lost time", you're a real hoot khen, have you ever considered self-publishing your fiction? :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Have you seen me complain?Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
In fact quite the opposite. It is the official advice of our software supplier that clients should not install OS updates until they've been tested thoroughly in the field. It is the official policy of my company to reject updates from our supplier as well until they've been tested in the field for stability. The last major OS software update crashed the systems for those who adapted it on release. For me stability comes first. Your anal attitude assumes that the risk of a problem due to security is greater than the risk of a problem due to a bad update, in my experience it is not. But keep being a moron if you please.
Because nobody ever works from home on a home licence, as is perfectly legal. Nobody at home could ever have the same concerns that businesses and other enterprise users do, could they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Good for you. That is why in any sane system you get to decide your priorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Considering accessing my bank account requires a physical chip and pin card reader that operates separate to my PC and does not rely upon a password or anything else that can be key-tracked I'm not as bothered as you are. I don't trust my Operating System to maintain my security. Any bank that can be cleared with a username and password is absurd.
The job of an Operating System is to be stable first and foremost above every other concern, security comes second.
The job of Security hardware and software is to provide additional security.
This is why Windows XP was such a success that it was still around a decade and four Operating Systems later. It was not secure but it was stable.
If you're taking more than 30 minutes then you're doing it wrong. Never heard of backups?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Bullshit. Same can be said of your so-called "security" concerns. Have backups to restore and real security.
If an automatic update breaks working software then it can take more than half an hour to identify the clash, update the software and get it all up and running again. Especially if the update is irreversible and you're using software from a supplier then it can take days or weeks to get a software update fixing the break that was caused by the initial update. If you're using legacy software (or a system built upon it) then it may not even be possible to get a fix.
If you want to be an ignoramus who assumes that updates are always benign and magically perfect then fine. The rest of us have some real world experience that you must obviously be lacking in.
If you pay a fortune for an enterprise licence then you can be treated apparently like an only semi-blithering idiot compelled to do changes whether you want to or not eventually but not immediately. If you're a home user though then no you mustn't have two brain cells to rub together to make a choice.
I work with these home users 40 hours a week. Microsoft has a long history of real world experience in making this decision to take the update process out of people's hands. They've made the right call, even if the choices were between a turd sandwich and giant douche. You can pull your tired grumpy old man routine as hard as you want, but the fact remains that there is a way to delay/disable updating if you're that paranoid and know how to use windows. Which I think is a safe middle ground to keep those that don't know how a computer works from changing a setting they shouldn't be touching.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
This has a great parallel to the human immunizations thread.
Sorry, but you can't say what the job of an operating system is unless you define what you use it for. What suits well for a embedded computer of a washing machine might not be the best choice for a firewall.
I wouldn't really use Windows XP for a firewall and I haven't seen any XP based firewalls around.
And I work 40 hours a week too. Everyone has their own experiences and their own priorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
They also have a long history of flawed updates which is why so many refuse to update immediately. Or in the case of Windows 8 - refuse to update at all.Quote:
Microsoft has a long history of real world experience in making this decision to take the update process out of people's hands.
No it doesn't. It would have a great parallel to an untested medicine being compulsorily given to everyone globally without warning and without going through any form of independent testing, just on the say-so of a drugs company. Without paying any attention to other medicines being used or whether they're compatible or not.Quote:
This has a great parallel to the human immunizations thread.
Absolutely well said. The end-user knows better than someone in Seattle what they're using the software for.Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
Quite often the end-user doesn't know anything. Or how exactly do you explain the armies of zombie machines?
And, yes, that includes your precious companies.
gonna need you to quantify this. Windows 10 launched in 190 countries yesterday. Many would be a great deal of people I don't see materializing, because MANY people don't know or give two shits on how their computer works.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
So what? Quite often they do. Your point is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Nobody is saying the default setting should not be set to auto-update. That has been the default for a long time and not just for MS but for iOS, Android as well as software like Chrome, Firefox, Flash etc
The question is whether people should have a choice to change the default in how they control their machine.
Oh and companies expand to Microsoft who apparently to you are 100% perfect, infallible and omnipotent.
Everyone in the world has Windows 10 now do they? Or have some chosen to delay updating?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
I know lots of people who have deliberately made the decision not to update to Windows 10 until they hear independently that it is working well. Including unless I'm misunderstanding you ... you yourself.I say you have the right to wait a bit. Khen is saying you shouldn't. I'm saying I trust people to make their own decision to do what they find is right for themselves and take responsibility for that, he is saying Microsoft is infallible and knows absolutely best for absolutely everyone in absolutely all circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Updated 2 machines yesterday, including my main rig with lots of custom out of the ordinary stuff, as I said in this very thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
But I love the touch of downgrading from "many" to "some" :haha:
Yes, you two remind me of my kids. One is cocksure yet almost completely oblivious to how the real world works, and the other loves to point out how ridiculous that looks and sounds to everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Which is why there are 8 versions of Windows 10, not including the N editions.Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
Well, you still defined the job of an OS. That stability is more important than security. But that's not always the case. As soon as you use your computer to do online banking I would suggest you to put security first.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Yes quite often. And often he does. You can't turn of a nuclear power plan for a half an hour just because you have to do a security update. You need other means of security.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Look you dickmunchers if I can easily disable the update service manually I'm happy enough.
You can, turn on the metered internet option.
I'm using a Sony Playstation Eye, connected to a Windows 10 machine, talking to Cortona (a carry over from the Windows Phone and based on an Xbox video game character) and having her/it open Steam. All with voice commands.
The future is bitching.
Almost all nuclear power plants are not run by computers in part because of security concerns (and because most are old) :p But yes, not all systems can be turned off to update at any moment. If our work pc would suddenly reboot on its own, that would cause serious problems as it controls a particle accelerator. But if you design your system in a way it can't be updated relatively quickly that's a serious flaw too. Professional systems can be targeted specifically too, see stuxnet.Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
Firstly I defined my priority and said all along that others may have other priorities. That is being a mature person and not an automaton.Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
Secondly, I never dismissed security. I actually said that relying solely on the OS to do banking etc is stupid IMO, my security for my online banking is far more advanced than putting blind faith into Windows as being secure. Frankly given history and experience I have always put the least confidence in Microsoft for being secure by itself. You need to build on your own security on top.
Nailed it in one.Quote:
You need other means of security.