H1-B: loophole?

And semantics aren't important in a discussion about H1B visas? Everyone here seems to be arguing the case for direct hire H1B and that is not what this case is about.

Well, a human resources company providing the H1-B candidates versus a cattle call doesn't make a difference in the end result. In neither case would the hires have occurred without H1-B.

Anyway.. beyond the loopholes, my biggest issue is the hypocrisy of tech companies pleading for cheap labor at home while hiring cheaper labor from abroad. Also interesting is how many of these tech companies won't commit to actually having significant (or any) satellite offices (even if in other places in the US!) or hiring remote.. corporate paranoia? I think so.

Just so I understand your objection, Loki...it's that companies who hire via H1Bs are simultaneously abusing the H1B visaholders while also depressing wages?

I agree a skilled immigration system is very much needed (something Jeb Bush can talk your ear off if anyone was listening). But your angst sounds like protectionism, when I don't think that's what you really mean.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Given how the system works, companies have a huge incentive to mistreat their workers (not saying that they do, but the incentive is there), particularly when it comes to fair compensation. And given that there are always third world workers out there willing to work for less, this does depress wages in any affected profession. I don't buy the bullshit about an insufficient number of American workers in many of the applicable fields when there are numerous cases of American workers being told to train their H1-B replacements.

And sure, opposing these visas is a form of protectionism. I believe the social consequences outweigh any economic gains. Are you actually entirely in support of unrestricted movement of labor? Would you support an unlimited guest worker program for all (non-security) jobs? Maybe we can temporarily import a few million construction workers to decrease wages there? I hear it's working in the southwest. Or how about importing any English-speaking doctor as long as they're willing to work for half the price?

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Originally Posted by Loki

Or how about importing any English-speaking doctor as long as they're willing to work for half the price?

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As long as the medical outcomes are similar hell yes. Screw the AMA and their protectionist practices.

Though I wonder what Loki's real concern is.

1. His primary concern is for the plight of the poor H1-B worker who has no protect from their evil overlords.

2. His primary concern is protectionist in nature and the 'plight' of the H1-B worker is just an argument, not the real concern he has.

I'm leaning towards #2 because if you asked the random H1-B worker if they prefer the system as it is now compared to no program in place... guess which one they'll pick?

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Originally Posted by Loki

Wig, I more or less agree with what you said, but I also don't think the problem will be solved simply because it's not in the interest of the main beneficiaries of this program to solve it. I think a far better solution, both economically and morally, is to replace these visas entirely with a skilled immigration system, like they have in Canada, Britain, and Australia. It severs the cord between employers and foreign workers, while encouraging the very same people to come to the US, except they'd be treated like all other immigrants. Why not have a point system where people in certain professions get extra points? In Britain, you get a lot of points from getting a college degree in Britain, so this system would be even more beneficial to foreigners who study in the US than the H1-B system.

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I agree that a complete overhaul is necessary - I'm of the opinion that anyone with a STEM degree should get a green card stapled to their diploma. I just think that a few tweaks on enforcement and grace periods and the like to the H1-B system are far more likely to happen than a comprehensive fix to our skilled (and unskilled) immigration system.

I don't see why getting a skilled immigration system in place is such a problem. Business groups would probably favor it. Most Democrats shouldn't block an expansion of immigrants, especially since those immigrants will not compete with Democratic constituencies economically. It's consistent with the national emphasis on STEM fields. Knowing English would be a requirement, so it would minimize a nativist challenge. You can even give some extra points for being from a war-zone to get the pro-refugee crown on board.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

As long as the medical outcomes are similar hell yes. Screw the AMA and their protectionist practices.

Though I wonder what Loki's real concern is.

1. His primary concern is for the plight of the poor H1-B worker who has no protect from their evil overlords.

2. His primary concern is protectionist in nature and the 'plight' of the H1-B worker is just an argument, not the real concern he has.

I'm leaning towards #2 because if you asked the random H1-B worker if they prefer the system as it is now compared to no program in place... guess which one they'll pick?

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So if Obama offered to allow 50 million Mexicans to come to the US tomorrow in order to work in whichever fields they can find jobs in, you'd be ok with that? Or is it only ok as long as your own field doesn't get affected? It's telling that you're not all concerned about employers being in a position to flout constitutional protections or a system where the loyalty of workers belongs not to the US but to their employers.

Isn't with higher educated people brain drain also an issue? IIRC for example doctors from certain countries are not allowed to stay in the us because their own country needs more doctors, right?

It may hurt third party nations to lose their doctors but I'm not aware of any hard and fast rule that prevents migration from them. The recipient nations generally treat the donor nation (for want of a better word) in a way of "well that's your problem".

Which to be fair it is. If it wasn't the USA it could be Canada, the UK, Australia or plenty of other nations that the educated doctor who wants to emigrate can go to.

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Originally Posted by Loki

So if Obama offered to allow 50 million Mexicans to come to the US tomorrow in order to work in whichever fields they can find jobs in, you'd be ok with that? Or is it only ok as long as your own field doesn't get affected? It's telling that you're not all concerned about employers being in a position to flout constitutional protections or a system where the loyalty of workers belongs not to the US but to their employers.

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Well, to be fair, that's happening already, just not in that large a number.

I somehow doubt Lewk is a fan.

In India and in China, the educational system is vastly different from that of the U.S., so a diploma in India versus a diploma in China versus a diploma in the US or Europe... well, all 4 are quite different in the level of effort and amount of money used to obtain them.

Personally I would be okay with free immigration, as long as we get rid of protectionism in every field and profession (including insulated government workers...), and the other country does the same, and institutes the same human rights. Otherwise, it's not a fair game.

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Originally Posted by agamemnus

...Personally I would be okay with free immigration, as long as we get rid of protectionism in every field and profession (including insulated government workers...), and the other country does the same, and institutes the same human rights. Otherwise, it's not a fair game.

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Stumbling block? Not to mention undefined.

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Originally Posted by Loki

I don't see why getting a skilled immigration system in place is such a problem. Business groups would probably favor it. Most Democrats shouldn't block an expansion of immigrants, especially since those immigrants will not compete with Democratic constituencies economically. It's consistent with the national emphasis on STEM fields. Knowing English would be a requirement, so it would minimize a nativist challenge. You can even give some extra points for being from a war-zone to get the pro-refugee crown on board.

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I have my doubts of Congress being able to pass any meaningful reform of any important policy, even if interests broadly line up in favor of said reforms. First, you get people trying to couple what should be a cut and dried issue - skilled immigration - to all sorts of other issues. Democrats would likely want it tied to comprehensive immigration reform. Republicans would probably try to shoehorn in something about border security. Both would probably try some protectionism or harp on about protecting American jobs.

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Originally Posted by Being

Stumbling block? Not to mention undefined.

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It is. Hence, we need to replace of H1-Bs with something else. Or at least, get rid of the loopholes/"exemptions".

Another article about it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/us...bs-abroad.html

Sorry New York Times, this is too important to be paywalled:

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Originally Posted by Temporary Visas, Meant to Import Talent, Help Ship Jobs Abroad, by Julia Preston, Sept. 29, 2015

WAYNE, N.J. — When Congress designed temporary work visa programs, the idea was to bring in foreigners with specialized, hard-to-find skills who would help American companies grow, creating jobs to expand the economy. Now, though, some companies are bringing in workers on those visas to help move jobs out of the country.

For four weeks this spring, a young woman from India on a temporary visa sat elbow to elbow with an American accountant in a snug cubicle at the headquarters of Toys “R” Us here. The Indian woman, an employee of a giant outsourcing company in India hired by Toys “R” Us, studied and recorded the accountant’s every keystroke, taking screen shots of her computer and detailed notes on how she issued payments for toys sold in the company’s megastores.

“She just pulled up a chair in front of my computer,” said the accountant, 49, who had worked for the company for than 15 years. “She shadowed me everywhere, even to the ladies’ room.”

By late June, eight workers from the outsourcing company, Tata Consultancy Services, or TCS, had produced intricate manuals for the jobs of 67 people, mainly in accounting. They then returned to India to train TCS workers to take over and perform those jobs there. The Toys “R” Us employees in New Jersey, many of whom had been at the company more than a decade, were laid off.

A temporary visa program known as H-1B allows American employers to hire foreign professionals with college degrees and “highly specialized knowledge,” mainly in science and technology, to meet their needs for particular skills. Employers, according to the federal guidelines, must sign a declaration that the foreign workers “will not adversely affect the working conditions” of Americans or lower their wages.

In recent years, however, global outsourcing and consulting firms have obtained thousands of temporary visas to bring in foreign workers who have taken over jobs that had been held by American workers. The Labor Department has opened an investigation of possible visa violations by contractors at the Walt Disney Company and at Southern California Edison, where immigrants replaced Americans in jobs they were doing in this country. Four former workers at Disney have filed discrimination complaints against the company. The companies say they have complied with all applicable laws.

But the Toys “R” Us layoffs — and others underway now at the New York Life Insurance Company and other businesses — go further. They are examples of how global outsourcing companies are using temporary visas to bring in foreign workers who do not appear to have exceptional skills — according to interviews with a dozen current or former employees of Toys “R” Us and New York Life — to help ship out jobs, mainly to India.

These former employees described their experience training foreigners to do their work so it could be moved to India. They would speak only on the condition that their names not be published, saying they feared losing severance payments or hurting their chances of finding new jobs.

In most cases where jobs have been moved overseas, the positions have been in technology, with employers arguing there are shortages of Americans with the most advanced skills. But in recent years, many jobs that American workers lost have been in accounting and back-office administration — although there is no shortage of Americans qualified do that kind of work.

The core purpose of the temporary work visas is to help American companies compete in the global economy. “If employers are able to hire the key people, they can keep jobs in the U.S. and create new jobs here,” said Lynn Shotwell, executive director of the Council for Global Immigration, which lobbies Congress for more visas for highly skilled foreign workers.

Outsourcing firms, and the companies hiring them, say they are careful not to violate any laws. But some experts argue the intent of the visas is being thwarted.

“At the very least, those are violations of the spirit of the law,” said Christine Brigagliano, a lawyer in San Francisco with extensive experience advising American companies on obtaining visas. “Those contractors are signing on the bottom line, saying we will not undercut the wages and working conditions of Americans. But, in fact, they are.”

The companies see it differently.

Kathleen Waugh, a spokeswoman for Toys “R” Us, said the staff reduction there was part of “designing a streamlined, more efficient global organization to make it fit for growth.” She said the contractors were required to comply with “any and all immigration laws.” The outsourcing, she noted, “resulted in significant cost savings.”

William Werfelman, a vice president and spokesman at New York Life, said the outsourcing was part of a transformation of its technology systems that would soon result in more jobs in the United States. “Our decisions are centered on keeping the company competitive, keeping it in the United States, keeping it growing,” he said.

The federal government does not track how often American workers are displaced by workers with temporary visas, but this year, employees at a variety of companies report losing jobs to foreign workers. For example, at Cengage Learning, an educational publisher, about 30 accountants in Ohio and Kentucky were laid off on Sept. 11, after they spent five months training Indian workers from Cognizant, another outsourcing giant. The temporary workers and the jobs went back to India.

A Cengage spokeswoman, Susan M. Aspey, said the company needed to install higher-grade accounting systems. “To do this quickly and efficiently,” she said, Cengage sought support from Cognizant. Employees who were laid off were given “fair severance packages commensurate with their years of service,” she said.

Temporary H-1B visas are limited to 85,000 each year. In the last five years, federal records show, most of the companies that received the largest share of H-1B visas have been global outsourcing firms, including TCS; Infosys, another large Indian company; Cognizant, which is based in the United States; and Accenture, a consulting operation incorporated in Ireland.

Those companies also use another temporary visa, the L-1B, which has no annual cap and allows businesses to internally transfer their employees who have “advanced knowledge” from branches in other countries to offices in the United States. A spokesman for TCS, Benjamin Trounson, said it maintained “rigorous internal controls to ensure we are fully compliant with all regulatory requirements.”

At the Toys “R” Us headquarters on a leafy campus by a reservoir here in New Jersey, someone dressed as Geoffrey the Giraffe, the retailer’s mascot, often wanders around greeting employees to bolster company spirit. But the mood was hardly playful on the morning of March 3, when a company vice president summoned nearly 70 employees to a conference room and told them their positions would be transferred by the end of June to workers from TCS

“We were asked to cooperate and show them respect and train them to do our individual job functions,” said another former accountant, 36, who had worked for the toy seller for almost 12 years. But, she recalled, “If you didn’t cooperate, you would be asked to leave.”

A few days later, TCS workers arrived to begin the training called “knowledge transfer.” Most had flown in days before from India and were staying at a La Quinta Inn nearby.

The 36-year-old accountant said the young Indian assigned to shadow her appeared to have no extraordinary knowledge of accounting. His expertise was in observing and mapping what she did.

“He was watching me like a hawk,” she said, remembering long hours at close quarters at her desk under the fluorescent lights of the accounting floor. “It took him a while to learn what I did.”

She had a hard time maintaining her composure. “I felt like, ‘Why am I sitting here showing this man how to do my job when they are taking it away from me and sending it to India?’”

Ms. Waugh, the spokeswoman, noted that Toys “R” Us employed about 33,000 people in the United States. She said the company offered workers “a severance package, including benefits and career transition services.”

The layoffs at New York Life were set in motion in 2014 when the company announced a $1 billion plan for an ambitious upgrade of its financial and data technology systems.

Since New York Life is not a technology company, said Mr. Werfelman, the spokesman, it turned to outside contractors for the upgrade. The company plans to cut about 300 positions, including up to one-fifth of its 1,400 technology workers, as well as some financial accountants. With 9,000 staff employees and 12,000 agents nationwide, New York Life is the largest mutual life insurer in the United States.

“We know there will be pain along the way,” Mr. Werfelman said. But he said that with new innovative technology, the company could rapidly expand despite the job cuts. He said it planned to hire 1,000 employees and 3,500 agents this year alone.

Accountants at New York Life were among the first scheduled for layoffs that started in May, under a contract with Accenture. The company’s accountants found out only by accident — when Accenture managers in India mistakenly sent out a group email with a full outsourcing plan — that the Indian workers they had been training for several weeks would be taking their jobs back to India.

One accountant said a worker from India made an exact digital “recording” during the day as he performed his job. At the close of business, the recording was transmitted to India, where workers practiced mimicking his tasks.

“It’s all just repeating exactly what we have been doing,” he said.

As a condition of his severance, he was asked to stay on for nine months to complete the training. The accountant, who at 26 was confident he would find a job elsewhere, preferred to resign.

An Accenture spokesman, James E. McAvoy, said it was assisting New York Life to build new global, 24-hour systems. He said H-1B workers were a small part of the Accenture employees involved; most were United States citizens or residents.

In July, about 100 New York Life technology workers were informed their jobs would be taken over by TCS, to be moved to India. At the insurer’s verdant campus in Sleepy Hollow, N.Y., and at offices in New York City, New Jersey and Georgia, tech employees began receiving individual layoff notices last week.

“After 30 years, it is very, very disappointing being told you are going to lose your job to a foreign country,” said one technology team member who is 49, and started with New York Life when he was 18.

Many tech workers facing layoffs are older, with years at the insurer. They were galled by executives’ statements that they were less qualified to learn the new systems than the foreign workers replacing them. “There are a lot of new technologies coming in all the time,” said an applications engineer in New York, who is 58 with 18 years at the company. “There is no reason at all we can’t do training for that.”

Some workers were not as dismayed, saying the company was offering generous severance packages.

But a hard irony for many of the New York Life employees losing jobs to immigrants is that they are immigrants themselves. They came to the United States a generation ago from the Philippines, Eastern European countries, and even India and raised families in this country. They followed the immigration rules — some coming as refugees, others with work visas and computer degrees from their home countries. Most became American citizens.

One technology manager, an immigrant from Europe, recalled that when he was hired at the insurer. “There was an open position that had to be filled,” he said. “Nobody lost their job because I got my job.”

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Originally Posted by agamemnus

It is. Hence, we need to replace of H1-Bs with something else. Or at least, get rid of the loopholes/"exemptions".

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Has any progress been made in this respect?
As far as I know things are more or less the same.
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Alexandra from <snipped link>