I think technically that post belongs in Zionuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by wiggin
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I think technically that post belongs in Zionuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by wiggin
Does anyone know what an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" means? :bored:
You'd be hard-pressed to find a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
I love that it's a speech trying to settle the antisemitism issue where he says something that can be so easily taken as a deeply offensive comment. The irony is remarkable - and you have to wonder if anyone actually read the speech before he gave it.
Shows you how deeply ingrained the anti-Semitism is.
This issue has been simmering for the last two years, but it recently came to another head over a whole string of own goals by Corbyn and his leadership. The latest coup de grace administered by Corbyn himself was this fantastic piece on Friday:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...m-labour-party
Somehow, despite 2+ years of this issue, he still hasn't figured out how to definitively draw a line under things and move forward. Labour right now should be preparing to take power - the absolute shambles of how Brexit has been handled should mean that they could easily defeat the Tories in the next election, and they should be laser-focused on exposing the ineptness and all-around chaos in the May government. Yet they're still mired in this controversy, which has, if anything, gotten worse each time they try to address things.
I think most of this really is Corbyn's fault. His instinctive response seems to be circling the wagons and denying any wrongdoing rather than making some sincere acceptance of past mistakes and establishing a clear plan of action moving forward. The party's response has been somewhere between tone-deaf and ridiculously ham-handed. Frankly, it's shocking - Jews across the Western world have traditionally supported left wing causes at a far higher rate, and UK's Labour party is no exception. But is appears that nearly every Jewish organization in Britain - major Labour Jewish groupings included - appear to have lost any shred of faith or trust in the Corbyn-led party. This is an astonishing result by itself, which should be cause for the party leadership to do some very serious soul-searching.
Frankly, I don't see this getting any better unless Corbyn's leadership is replaced. In the absence of such a circumstance, I think this is going to drag on and be a massive distraction and source of internal party strife when they should be making political hay over the implosion of the Tory party.
Corbyn won't be replaced for the same reason Republicans stick with Trump: he's wildly popular with the base, a vast majority of which either doesn't care about the issue or has a habit of whining about evil "Zionists."
Oh, I agree. I was just saying that Corbyn seems incapable of effectively grappling with this issue, and I think it's just going to drag on until he's replaced (likely in quite a while for entirely different reasons). But if I was a British leftist I would be dismayed at how badly he is handling this issue, and how he appears to be permanently poisoning relations with a key group of supporters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
The problem is that Jews are not viewed as a key group of supporters. In fact I've seen some Corbyn supporting lefties explicitly say that Jewish voters are such a small minority that they don't care if Jews vote Conservative as they will get more votes from Muslims etc
It is an unnecessary choice. There are ten times as many Muslims in the UK as there are Jews, but the number of people who are so extreme in either group that they can't both find a natural home in Labour (without the Corbynites) is comparatively small. Corbynites are disproportionately influential in Labour today, but that has always been the case for vocal ideological extremists in all parties. Think they'll be punished severely for dragging the party down with them at such a critical juncture.
I fully agree it is an unnecessary choice. I also find it rather condescending to believe that Muslims would be more likely to vote for an antisemetic party. I certainly hope they will be punished severely, they deserve to be.
It's always been the case in my opinion that the extremes on each wing share more in common with each other than the centrists on their own wing. Corbyn and his ilk won't like it but are more in common with Trump than central left wing figures like Trudeau.
“The creatures outside looked from Corbynites to Trumpists, and from Trumpists to Corbynites, and from Corbynites to Trumpists again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Why? Conservative white voters in both the UK and the US are more likely to vote for parties and political representatives pushing a racist, xenophobic--frequently outright Islamophobic--agenda. Many of them lie to themselves and say that what looks like racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia etc. aren't really anything of the sort--that it's just realism, prudence, hard truths, concern for evolved western values etc being described as racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia by political enemies trying to smear the party by any means necessary. Similarly, many Corbynites--and certainly a large number of British Muslims--and their enablers have convinced themselves that what others recognize as antisemitism in Labour is nothing of the sort--that they're just being smeared by their "globalist" warmongering pro-Israel neocon enemies, who aren't above cynically exploiting the charge of antisemitism to cripple Labour. In this political climate, it is difficult for partisans to honestly reflect on problems at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
This is true of Conservative populists as well. Partisanship is a hell of a drug.Quote:
It's always been the case in my opinion that the extremes on each wing share more in common with each other than the centrists on their own wing. Corbyn and his ilk won't like it but are more in common with Trump than central left wing figures like Trudeau.
“The creatures outside looked from Corbynites to Trumpists, and from Trumpists to Corbynites, and from Corbynites to Trumpists again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
At least anecdotally, Corbyn is popular even amongst mainstream Labourites, not just the fringe. And they view any attack on Corbyn as illegitimate, including for his leftism and rather interesting relationship with Russia and various terrorist groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Anecdotes are tricky. Anecdotally, the mainstream Labour supporters I know and the ones I see online--regular old Labour, not even Blairites--are extremely frustrated with him and with Momentum, due to their repeated own goals, their incompetent handling of the antisemitism issue, their ineffectual opposition, their support of Brexit, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Your contacts seem to be far more politically involved/aware than the average Labour voter.
Only 59% of Labour's own supporters are satisfied with Corbyn, 30% dissatisfied: https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-...rty-supportersQuote:
Originally Posted by Loki
That's a remarkably poor rating for an opposition leader who isn't having to make any tough decisions to have with his own supporters.
Certainly possible, but that would suggest that much of Corbyn's support (apart from Momentum etc) comes from people who are simply uninvolved/uninformed partisans who just prefer Labour to Conservatives, regardless of party leader--meaning an alternative to Corbyn could be equally if not more palatable to the average Labour voter. Corbyn's has the dubious pleasure of enjoying shockingly low approval for being a Labour opposition leader essentially standing before an open goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
He does.
He also recorded a higher vote share at the last General Election than almost any Labour leader excluding Blair for many decades.
Disgusting.
Twitter Link
I actually don't find that response to be that disgusting. If we actually approach this appropriately (looking at things via color-blind lens) and some French-born guy talked about his French values he learned growing up in France before immigrating to the UK and someone responded, "well go back to France then" is the comment still disgusting?
Though to be fair if your left is anything like the American left they tend to view minorities who are conservative as particularly evil and will often use racist attacks against them.
This is par for the course in the UK these days, not only among Labour supporters. British Remainers of non-British heritage are frequently told to leave when they express criticism of the UK's decision to leave the EU or of the mendacious & incompetent conduct of those politicians entrusted with implementing that decision. This partisan halfwit can try to portray this as a problem unique to Labour, but he is clearly misleading his readers.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
LOL you are such a hypocritical shit sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
You catch some right winger posting something vile and look how evil the right are.
You catch some Brexiteer posting something vile and look how evil the Brexiteers are.
You see a left winger posting something evil and its yebbut what about the Brexiteers?
Hypocrite! Bear this mentality in mind next time someone with politics you dislike posts something you dislike if that's going to be your attitude.
Yes, and you're a disgusting person for not seeing why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
You want to make this look like a partisan problem, but to the extent that general racism and xenophobia are partisan problems in the UK, they are currently more common among people who identify as conservatives or at least not as Labour. I can understand how this might upset and frustrate you, but you got greedy RB. You could've easily avoided this by sticking to the issue of Labour's tolerance of antisemitism. But, because you wanted to exploit this by making more general partisan attacks, it was appropriate to correct your misapprehension. Telling citizens to go back where they came from is not a characteristically Labour thing to do. It is, however, characteristic of a certain kind of jingoistic xenophobic ethno-nationalism that has found a home among conservatives all over the west. That can certainly change, but, until it does, you'll just have to accept reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Sorry but that is utter claptrap and you know it. "Go home to ..." is disgusting and inexcusable regardless of who it comes from. You'll never have seen me excuse or justify it from Conservatives of any variety.
I did not "get greedy" I only used one word and that word was Disgusting. It is disgusting and if you can't acknowledge that without caveats, without excuses and without yebbut whatabouterisms then you are no better than Lewkowski.
If I see this on the right then I condemn it. If you want to do the same then take the mote out of your own eye and be prepared to do the same without excuses when the left do it.
This language is disgusting. No its, no buts. Left or right, black or white it is wrong.
I offered no excuses. Do you think it's somehow better for a lone Labour supporter to say that sort of thing just because a ton of Conservatives do the same? If not, why do you imagine I do?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
The person whose tweet you quoted was more interested in launching a partisan attack, as were you, unless you're trying to tell me you didn't actually read the tweet you decided to quote. This is misleading. His approach obscures the truth that this sort of attitude is widespread, and more common among non-Labour supporters atm. Your approach obscures the truth that it isn't simply about a few especially reprehensible people but rather a systemic change in political discourse.
Your claim that you condemn racism and xenophobia when it crops up among those you support is also misleading. You typically cannot acknowledge the role racism and xenophobia have played in modern British Conservative politics--such as Brexit--and, when confronted with undeniable evidence, you usually either engage in semantic games that let you claim such people aren't true Conservatives, or you treat them as unique bad apples. There is a whole thread where you spend one post after another mustering increasingly dubious arguments to defend the racism of American police officers.
I can see how all of this may be puzzling to you because of your tendency to never look past the surface. So when you see a purported Labour supporter saying something generally racist, you cannot put that into context, and therefore do not understand how the implications are different from when eg. a UKIP supporter says the same sort of thing. Like Lewk, you have difficulties understanding the importance of context.
Nowhere in the Tweet I quoted were Conservatives regarded as without problems or contrasted with.
If a young Labour activist had been told by a Tory to "go back to Ghana" you'd have been rightfully outraged and I'd have condemned it without equivocation.
The fact you can't condemn this without equivocation says more about you than anyone else. It is sad.
I have never justified racism by American cops I've condemned bad apples in American cops. I've said its not representative of all cops which it's not. If you wanted to say that this is not representative of all Labour supporters then that would be equally as justified as saying that about cops.
There is zero difference whatsoever between a Labour person or a UKIP person saying go back to Ghana. It is vile and racist regardless of who the person supports. If anything I'd be most outraged if a Tory said it as I don't want that being said in my name. The fact you only care if a political opponent says it betrays you as a hyper partisan.
Lewk couldn't see what was wrong with it. Ominous Gamer could. You seem to be in league with Lewk.
He's a Conservative activist who tarred all of Labour with the same brush based on this person's attack, and, like you, showed no evidence that he recognized how misleading that is. Here's what he actually said:
This is bullshit. It is entirely partisan and it is misleading. If a Labour activist had been told by a Tory to go back to Ghana, you would immediately launch a No True Scotsman defense in your own mind, and I would laugh at you. But I have to correct you on one thing: I wouldn't have been outraged, because, by today's standards, such an attack would really be par for the course, and my threshold for outrage has had to be adjusted to reflect that.Quote:
The Labour response? "Go back to Ghana!"
So it's not just Jews that Labour have a problem with.
I have no reason to doubt that the person who told the young man to go back to Ghana is a Labour sympathizer. What he said was bad, which makes the tweet even worse: the person who quoted him doesn't give a fuck about racism against British citizens of Ghanaian descent except as fuel for partisan attacks, and neither he nor you go out of your way to highlight racism and xenophobia among British Conservatives and in British Conservative policy. Instead, you regularly turn yourself into a pretzel trying to dismiss the Tories' long-running affair with xenophobes and racists as a fantasy conjured up to smear the freedom-loving saviours of England.
You're absolutely right, I have difficulties seeing misleading partisan attacks without feeling a need to challenge them and to provide context. If you have issues with your favourite party being challenged, or with acknowledging a context that makes that party look bad, that's your problem. It is of no concern to me.
So you can't simply condemn disgusting racism without equivocation.
I'm sorry but you appear to be of the belief that providing context, seeing the whole picture and challenging misleading partisan attacks are somehow tantamount to equivocation. If that is indeed what you mean when you say "equivocation", I guess you're absolutely right, although that's not what the word means. Condemning racism is an exercise in meaningless virtue-signalling to you but I'm not really persuaded by your signalling given your long-running defense of racist policies, racist policing and, indeed, racist pub-management.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
I've never backed any racism of any kind.
Getting back on topic: What the actual fuck!? This Tweet is from a Labour MP so don't claim it's a Tory partisan attack.
Twitter Link
This is the "but her e-mails!" response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
LOL that's exactly it! :haha: :up:
Not really, no. Please reread it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
Rand, you lose the right to complain about Corbyn's anti-semitism the second you defend an asshole for mocking Muslims. Any Labourite who publicly used similar language about Jews would be suspended from the party or worse.
No they wouldn't. Any Labourite using such language about Jews would not be controversial enough to even reach the news, let alone have action taken.
That's funny :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
This is less so:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-wreath-laying
Caveat: Guardian al Hezballah cited in this.
Turns out opposition politics is stressful and incompetent in every place for every one.
But we will focus on this one because British leftism is offensive.
Antisemitism is offensive. I never thought I'd say this but bring back Ed Miliband.