Real life has burdens *shrug*
You expected HMG to pick up the tab for relocation costs? I didn't.
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Real life has burdens *shrug*
You expected HMG to pick up the tab for relocation costs? I didn't.
No you tool, I expect your govt. to waive visa, ILR & additional health fees for people to whom it says it has an obligation and that it has invited over ostensibly in order to save them from Chinese oppression. When you dismissively say "real life has burdens" and shrug, it's an illustration of how short the distance is between you and Lewkowski.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
There's a massive difference. I'm happy for anyone who wants to pay their own way to come here to do so. Lewk wants to separate families who have done so, lock them in cages and send goons in to beat them up. You don't see a difference?
What are you talking about? US fees are in the very low thousands. Even if you add a lawyer to the mix, it's well below $10k.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Including healthcare?
As I said that's summing everything including healthcare charges up, much of which will be spread out over years not paid upfront, and is from start through to being a citizen.
I didn't have to pay anything up front for healthcare as a student in the UK. Why should these people? Presumably they'll be paying taxes once they get a job, which is how everyone else in the country pays for healthcare.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
I think you were a student before it was introduced. It was introduced by the Coalition Government in 2015 to deal with "health tourism" and as a student you would have to pay now if you were coming for more than six months but be able to pay a reduced rate.
There is no individual tax that pays for healthcare. This is one tax that contributes same as all other taxes. The idea of double-taxation is no different to double-taxation when you sell a home, or die and leave an estate or plenty of other occasions that warrant additional taxes.
Why should these people pay any more for healthcare than a native Briton?
The healthcare fee for non-European students is 150 pounds/year by the way: https://www.studyinternational.com/h...ional-students
Because they're not citizens and are choosing to come here so are charged accordingly.
The government taxes virtually anything and everything it can, there's no difference here.
Do you think the only tax is on working? That's naive if so.
Why should someone who buys petrol pay a duty on that?
Why should someone who buys petrol pay VAT on the duty as well as the petrol?
Why should someone who sells shares pay a tax on that?
Why should someone who dies pay a tax on that?
Why should someone who employs others pay a tax on that?
Why should someone who buys a property pay a tax on that?
Why should someone who sells a property pay a tax on that?
I could go on and on and on if you want me to. That's what HMRC does.
Once you start pulling on that string there's no end to it. If you do something, anything, there's likely a tax to HMRC there somewhere. Moving to the UK may attract a tax, but so too can moving within the UK too. The government taxes everything it can tax. If you don't want to pay taxes your only option is to basically be a hermit and not do anything ever.
Except a 14k "tax" makes it virtually impossible for anyone outside of the upper middle class to come to your country, which is a weird criterion when you're ostensibly doing this to help people flee repression. You think the upper middle class is the one being oppressed the most in Hong Kong?
Its not a 14k tax. Its 14k in many, many years summing up all sorts of fees and taxes all added together into one headline figure. Funnily enough we're getting hundreds of thousands annually coming to the UK and paying these fees and taxes, not all of whom are 'upper middle class'.
I expect over a course of years everyone on average pays well, well, well over 14k in taxes.
Ie. there's no compelling reason not to waive the fee for HKers.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
For individuals, a very large part of the NHS contribution is via the national insurance, which accounts for almost 20% of the NHS's funding—and which HKers would be required to pay.Quote:
There is no individual tax that pays for healthcare. This is one tax that contributes same as all other taxes.
Visa fee, ILR fee, IHS and processing fees are not expected to be spread out over "many, many years". You pay the visa fee and IHS when you apply for the visa, in this case likely the ancestry visa—which means an upfront IHS payment of £2000 (set to increase to £3,120) per applicant on top of the visa fee. You pay the ILR fee when you apply for that. The bulk of that estimated £14k is not amortized over many years.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Only a small minority of non-EU long-term migrants attain indefinite leave to remain, let alone citizenship. Probably a majority of those who do settle do so for family reasons—ie. the cost for one person is shared by at least two people, as opposed to two people (at least) having to pay large sums upfront. Family migration from poorer countries has dropped sharply—in no small part due to their working class British spouses not being able to afford to bring them over.Quote:
Funnily enough we're getting hundreds of thousands annually coming to the UK and paying these fees and taxes, not all of whom are 'upper middle class'.
This represents large lump sum payments on top of that spending—a substantial portion of an individual's disposable income.Quote:
I expect over a course of years everyone on average pays well, well, well over 14k in taxes.
Here I thought they were being compelled to flee a dangerous, repressive govt., invited by a British govt. that purportedly wants to fulfill its obligations towards the people it abandoned to China. But now you tell me it's a "choice"—that they simply have to "choose" to have a lot of money and "choose" to move.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
They're not being compelled to flee. They aren't being bulldozed, they're not refugees. But China changed the rules of the game so we are giving them a choice to come over if they want to do so. Yes its a choice. We're not sending goons over to pressgang people and force them to come, its their choice if they want to or not.
NI part pays for the NHS yes but so too do a plethora of other taxes.
I'll wait for you to address the remaining criticism of your ridiculous arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
No compelling reason not to waive the tax: I'd have no objection to doing so but no compelling reason to need to do so either.
NI: I addressed this.
Fees spread out or up front: Actually that original thread that started this mentioned that the scheme had different options to spread payments out over the years rather than all up front. Yes there will be some up front money.
Minority achieve citizenship: Not sure how this is criticism or to respond. Some people come temporarily then return to their own nation. Ok. And? Citizenship if you want to settle permanently becomes cheaper than extending a temporary visa permanently and comes with extra rights and responsibilities but if you don't want to do that then that's your choice. We shouldn't force people to be citizens it should be an option for those that want it.
Fewer poor migration by people who can't support themselves: Good. That was why it was changed so working as intended.
More migration by people who can support themselves: Good. Working as intended.
Substantial portion of disposable income: Yeah moving internationally generally is. It's not a choice to make lightly.
Choice: I addressed this.
There we go. Everything responded to.
There's an extremely compelling reason; not waiving these fees means your offer is not in any meaningful sense an "open door"—as you framed it earlier on in this thread—and it severely restricts many HKers ability to flee Chinese oppression. You yourself framed it as needing to flee, so you should acknowledge that this is not an ordinary form of voluntary migration.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
You did not adequately address this issue. Your initial claim about how the NHS is funded was misleading. More importantly, HKers will be required to pay NI, which—for most ordinary individuals—constitute a substantial contribution to the NHS, along with VAT and other taxes that also contribute to the NHS. Having to pay a £2-3k health surcharge on top of this is an unjustifiable burden if you're going to make it look like you're opening the door for them—esp. considering they have not burdened the UK's public finances up until this point. They should be receiving tax credits rather than being required to pay fees.Quote:
I addressed this.
It says no such thing. It says that applicants will have the option of applying for a 5 year ancestry visa or apply twice for 30-month visas; that's not "spread out", it's two burdensome applications that will require payment upfront for each application. When you say "spread out payments over the years" that implies manageable, regular payments—eg. monthly or annual payments. What the UK is offering is not that. The latter option is marginally more manageable, but it is also riskier, because it leaves less affluent HKers in the UK more exposed to the risk of rule changes, which the UK is notorious for.Quote:
Fees spread out or up front: Actually that original thread that started this mentioned that the scheme had different options to spread payments out over the years rather than all up front. Yes there will be some up front money.
It means your claim—that this is no big deal because "hundreds of thousands" of people are voluntarily coming to the UK annually in this manner—is bullshit. Far fewer than 200k are coming to the UK and achieving settled status—let alone citizenship—under the same conditions as those that will apply to families from HK. Even if that weren't the case, it would hardly qualify as "opening the door".Quote:
Minority achieve citizenship: Not sure how this is criticism or to respond. Some people come temporarily then return to their own nation. Ok. And?
In other words, you're not "opening the door" to working class and regular middle-class HKers. You could've just acknowledged that instead of lying about it.Quote:
Fewer poor migration by people who can't support themselves: Good. That was why it was changed so working as intended.
More migration by people who can support themselves: Good. Working as intended.
Which is why your asinine half-assed argument about people paying more than £14k in taxes over time is stupid.Quote:
Substantial portion of disposable income: Yeah moving internationally generally is. It's not a choice to make lightly.
Are they fleeing out of need or out of choice? Are they fleeing out of choice or because they have money? When your alternatives are to stay and be subjected to cruel, totalitarian oppression, or flee, that's not much of a choice. When your ability to flee is restricted by your socioeconomic status, that, too, is not much of a choice. The UK can make it more of a choice, for HKers—by waiving these onerous fees and not forcing them to go through a protracted and risky immigration process.Quote:
Choice: I addressed this.
That's a lot of words to say you don't think people should have to pay tax. In an ideal world it would be nice if we had enough money they didn't have to.
I'm not a big fan of tax either, I wish we didn't need to charge taxes.
Why are you illiterate, RB? Why? It is incredibly tiresome to see you obstruct every single discussion with what I can only assume is a deliberately cultivated functional illiteracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
I'm not. We have some taxes here, you're objecting to them. I object to tax often too, it'd be nice to not have to pay taxes but the state needs money. If you have a good idea of what could be cut so we don't have to charge these taxes I'd love to hear it.
Or was there a problem I forgot to address other than the tax? It all seemed to be about the taxes, other than the money I think everything else has been addressed.
I have no principled reason to support this tax other than the country needs money to pay for the NHS and this is a scheme to make money for the NHS paid for by people willing to voluntarily pay this tax. I have no principled reason to want high taxes, taxes should be as low as necessary.
He's not objecting to tax. He's objecting to the amount of tax required by a government that is supposedly making it easy and feasible for HKers to settle in the UK.
Easy and feasible as far as getting a visa is concerned, not cheap or free from taxation.
Health insurance in many nations would cost a lot more than £400 per year (or £625 per annum I believe it will be going up to soon) and that's without considering just how comprehensive our NHS is. Once that fee is paid it entitles people to full free NHS healthcare as if they were a citizen.
What I'm objecting to is RB being wrong and sucking at reading. Looking back on the past few years of discussions, I have spent more time and effort making RB do the basic reading and thinking required for his own posts than I have on reading anyone else's posts on this forum, because this sloppy, lazy mfer just can't seem to figure out how to read. Now, I know some people have genuine difficulties reading, but this is just sloppiness. It's embarrassing.Quote:
Originally Posted by gogobongopop
I can read, you just dislike me not agreeing with you and disagreeing with you. Oh well, not everyone is a hive mind leftwinger who thinks the state should pay for everything through taxation, while apparently never levelling any taxes. :bulb: You've not cited even a single thing that I've "not read".
From Googling it, it appears our annual healthcare levy is equivalent roughly to the average monthly premium for health insurance in the USA. So not bad value. Someone moving to the UK may need to pay 30 months up front, 2.5 years of healthcare charges . . . . but that's at what the cost of 2.5 months of premium in the USA. And our NHS is fully comprehensive too once they've contributed to it, whereas I believe most insurances in the USA are not. So yeah, could be much worse.
No, RB, you cannot read. Like I said, most of our exchanges over the past few years have involved me having to guide you through your own posts and the links you've posted, in addition to everything I've written, like you're some kind of idiot. It's pathetic. In this case, you have demonstrated deficiencies in your ability to read in several ways. You've claimed that I'm against taxes, which is plainly untrue and cannot in any way be inferred by my opposition to the imposition of heavy non-tax fees on immigrants that you have invited over ostensibly in order to save them from Chinese oppression that they may need to flee. You've claimed that those fees are not burdensome because they can be spread out over many, many years, according to a Twitter thread—also untrue, because the thread says they'd have the choice between making one very large lump payment or two very large lump payments, not spread out over many many years but on two occasions in a 5 year time span. You've tried to argue that hundreds of thousands of people choose to settle in the UK under the same conditions every year, which is untrue—far fewer than 200k come even close to choosing to settle in the UK under the same conditions, and the true number is likely close to or below 100k. You've tried to claim that the conditions don't present an obstacle to working- and middle-class people, and then, shortly afterwards, acknowledged that you don't want working- and middle-class people from other countries to settle in the UK. You've claimed that the NHS is only funded through general taxation, and, upon being informed that a substantial portion of the NHS's funding is from NI—a very large part of an individual's contribution to the NHS—you've tried to pretend you weren't wrong. You are wrong. About almost everything you ever say—in any discussion—you tend to be wrong, because you can't read like a person with a functioning brain. These examples are just from this page, in this thread. The same exercise can be repeated for every single thread, but it's so fucking tiresome to have to hold your hand all the fucking time.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
I think he's simply pointing out that the offer of a path to citizenship for people from Hong Kong is literally an empty gesture as it only applies to people who could have come anyway. People who are victimized for having opinions but don't have the money can go and fuck themselves.
Seems like I can't delete posts.
RIP Hong Kong democracy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-54899171
Hong Kong Democratic Party chairman Wu Chi-wai told reporters following the lawmakers' removal: "We can no longer tell the world that we still have 'one country, two systems', this declares its official death."
... and getting worse. :(
Quote:
Dozens of Hong Kong pro-democracy figures arrested in sweeping crackdown
More than 50 people, including pro-democracy politicians and campaigners, have been arrested in early-morning raids across Hong Kong in an unprecedented crackdown by authorities that was condemned as a “despicable” assault on freedom.
In a police operation involving more than 1,000 officers, the 53 individuals were detained under the national security law (NSL), accused of “subverting state power” by holding primaries for pro-democracy candidates for the Hong Kong election. The election was ultimately delayed by Lam for a year, purportedly because of the pandemic.
The raids on Wednesday sent shockwaves around the once semi-autonomous city, as social media posts and news reports confirmed arrest after arrest. By mid-morning, lists of more than 50 individuals emerged, reportedly including every candidate to have run in the unofficial primaries last year, as well as organisers and pollsters, and the first known foreigner – an American lawyer – to be arrested under the law.
Is she having a laugh? :confused:Quote:
Hong Kong arrests: Carrie Lam accuses west of hypocrisy, citing US Capitol riot
City’s leader accuses foreign critics of double standards when they condemn rioters in the US but support pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserv...60&resize=1180
How is this hypocrisy? The West condemned those who rioted against democracy on the US Capitol, just as it condemns the encroachment of laws and policy against democracy in HK.
You fucking halfwit Xi Jinping pawn.
We should not forget that the traitors in DC also were fighting for democracy. Only difference is that in their idea of democracy they are supposed to always win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbuk2
What, countries trying to deflect criticism have to use reality now? Honestly, what did you expect? It's an easy headline, and they can ignore criticism a bit more (not that they otherwise wouldn't).Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbuk2
Beijing's creep continues.
Quote:
Hong Kong plans to make politicians swear oath of loyalty to Beijing
All election participants will have to swear allegiance or face five-year ban under bill to be tabled next month
Hong Kong’s government has announced electoral changes requiring office-holders to pledge and maintain an oath of loyalty to Hong Kong and Beijing, or face disqualification and a five-year ban on running for reelection.
A bill to “ensure patriots govern Hong Kong” has been endorsed by the chief executive council and will be tabled in March, the secretary for constitutional and mainland affairs, Erick Tsang, told a press conference on Tuesday afternoon.
The announcement came a day after a top Beijing official signalled that major changes would be coming to ensure Hong Kong is run by “patriots” – a clear sign that China intends to no longer tolerate dissenting voices, 23 years after the former British colony was handed over to Chinese rule with a promise it could maintain its own rights and freedoms for 50 years.
I think we should not buy into the fiction anymore that Beijing allows for a separate system in Hong Kong.
Given how Beijing is supported by the business elite in Hong Kong, it might be time to consider comprehensive economic sanctions against that business elite (in addition to the political elite).
It's odd to be on the same side as Donald Trump.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Trump told Xi he supported the crackdown against Hong Kong protesters.
After which he still imposed sanctions for the crackdown. If he really said he supported it in the first place.
You're assuming Trump bothered reading the orders he was signing.
Trump isn't the President, y'all.
Here's to hoping this isn't the Sudetenland annexation that proceeds a war in Asia, where we'll look back on this and say "damn if we pushed back harder we could have avoided all of this".