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What actually happens because of such shaming is that they don't seek help ie. they avoid the very things that could help them out of their addiction. That is certainly a negative impact, as you put it. I refer you once again to Loki's first post in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Isn't the whole AA thing anonymous?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Isn't the whole AA thing anonymous?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Relatively anonymous, and AA is in fact very good for those people that can accept its quasi-religious package. But it's not like being anonymous protects against bullying hassling shaming etc. Just look at most of the internet :confused:
I don't think shame and guilt are the most important tools in the AA package.
There, corrected your quote for you. You're barreling completely off the wrong road here. Maybe you should stop and finally engage your brain.Quote:
http://www.theworldforgotten.com/ima...quote_icon.pngWhat Lewkowski should have grasped by now http://www.theworldforgotten.com/ima...post-right.png
I've never met anyone who is an alcoholic that didn't make the conscious choice to begin to drink.
There's a difference between beginning something and continuing something.
I think that to him continuing something is just like beginning it again, with no memory
There might be a difference however it is not a difference that takes any responsibility away. Anyone can stop drinking/smoking/drugs if they choose not to. Is it difficult? Sure. Are there going to be withdrawal symptoms? Sure. This doesn't change the fundamental fact that it is a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Anyone can be undepressed if they choose to.
Interesting fact: there is considerable overlap between depression (and other psychiatric conditions such as anxiety disorders) and addiction, in the sense that many who are depressed become addicted and many who are addicted become depressed.
Wonder how we should deal with them.
How?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
The same way they can choose to be not addicted of course. And since depression is a strong risk factor for substance abuse or addiction they can often kill two birds with one stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
I agree with the will-power point made, but it can be very difficult, it's like choosing to not eat. I Agree sometime when the issues are chemicals that are present on their own accord and not the result of your own thoughts at a given time, may need medication to supplement treatement, but i also contend by in large they too are psychologically conquerable.
An addict can choose not to continue to consume the substance they are addicted too. I'm not seeing the choice the depressed person can make that would eliminate the depression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
But it works through the same mechanisms: Your "free will" overrides the chemical neuropathways which exist in your brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
You're massively underestimating the influence the condition of your brain has on your decisions. With your logic, the effects of alcohol should be non-existant.
Lewk, how do you explain what happens to people if they're drunk?
What a ridiculous analogy; no matter how hard you try not thinking about a missing arm won't grow it back. Not thinking about depression and it's causes does you (me in fact) a lot of good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
I cope, and do so without medication. Sometimes I still get drawn in and then I pick myself up by doing something, anything, that has a beginning an end and a clearly visible result. Not everybody can do that, I am aware of that. So being annoyed with other people whining was not so much about them as it was about me. Just like an alcoholic should stay away from the bottle I should stay away from over-analyzing types.
Any action to deal with the depression would constitute such a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
It's a brilliant analogy. Not dwelling on depression is awesome, but, as you say, not everyone can manage that on their own, esp. when they're in a depressive stage of their illness. They might not need meds, but they may very well need proper guidance for a time, in order to acquire and perfect such coping strategies. Or they might need ECT, you never know :o you have arms, so you're fine :heart:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
I do blame myself, an addict. I also take some measure of pride in my recovery. I am just saying that at some point blame becomes counter-productive to recovery. the addict must know that he is responsible for his/her addiction, but must also feel that he is more than just an addict. Society wishes to label and forget addicts, which does not help anyone.
I am not going to quote everything I am responding to here, so kind of bear with me. This post may seem a bit rambling, but hopefully in the end it will make some sort of sense. :weird:
As much as I hate to admit it, (it almost seems like a character flaw) I have to semi-agree with Lewk. I think addiction, by today's standard, is an overused trend. Everyone wants to have a flippin' excuse for their behavior, and if they can say, "I'm addicted to booze (or meth or whatever) so you can't blame me for beating the old man half to death for $3.50" they have a nifty way of shifting blame from themself to something that can't be questioned or sent to jail or whatever. We seem to have raised a generation of "kids", remember folks some of us have kids as old as you are, who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions! Far too many kids today want to skate thru life. I blame a big part of this on the, oh no, we can't have Jr.'s self esteem harmed, so there can be no winners/losers in the game, we can't tell the kid he needs to drop 30 pounds, or whatever...all in the name of making sure Jr. (who happens to be a whiny, overweight, lazy kid with an IQ of 80) thinks or feels like he is as good as Joe Blow who has a good attitude, exercises daily, and has an IQ of 150.
Actually, smokers are treated worse than a staggering, stumbling, falling down drunk, as long as that drunk doesn't try to drive! Smokers are stigmatized, banished to the elements outside, far worse than a drinker/drunk ever will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Take it from someone who has kicked meth, and is quitting drinking...smoking is far harder to quit than anything else. I find myself wanting a cigarette at the usual times. I try to go walk and take my mind off of smoking, but it's been too cold and icy to walk outside. I am going to start walking at the high school 3 or 4 times a week, but the hours between 3:30 and 9:00 PM are not typically "smoking" times. Right after breakfast, which I now must eat, is the worst!
Lewk, there are genuine addictions. I just don't believe everything is an addiction like some in the medical field and some here do. Those people DO need some form of help! For some reason, you seem to be missing the point that addiction, by it's REAL definition, is a very real illness, just like depression or diabetes or cancer. Some addictions cause severe withdrawl, and should only be attempted with medical supervision. Other, so-called addictions, like booze and cigarettes, can be kicked without help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
I don't believe everyone has the willpower to quit their addiction(s). I think some people (read below) have been pampered and petted and told how wonderful they are, when the opposite is true, to the point they wouldn't know willpower if it bit them in the ass. Others, maybe like me, are stubborn, refusing to let themselves lean on an imaginary crutch such as counseling or meds, and can...sometimes...pull ourselves out of the pit by sheer willpower and determination. I don't claim to know anything about neuro-chemistry, but I do think some people can drink or use a drug, sometimes to excess, without becoming physically addicted to said drug. Maybe the neuro-transmitters, or something like that, have something to do with that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
If you truly believe that AA is anonymous, then come to BFE on a Wed. or Sat. night. I will go with you, and we can walk by the Congregational Church, where, just by the vehicles parked outside, I can tell you who is attending the meeting that night! :( Anonymous my ass! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
For some people, as I understand it, there is no choice after they have become "addicted". They are compelled to use their drug of choice, usually with horrible results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
I tend to have mild depression. It's not bad enough to require meds or counseling, but bad enough that I realize when I am in a funk! My general outlook on life is optimistic, and I really think that helps me overcome the couple times a year I could get depressed. With more severe depression, help is a great thing, whether meds or counseling or both!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
As was posted earlier by GGT and others, we need to take away the stigma of mental health issues. GGT said she isn't comfortable saying she has a mental "illness" but would have no problem saying she has diabetes or heart disease. I see things changing in this respect, but very slowly. Hell, it was only a few years ago that breast or prostate cancers were spoken about in hushed tones. Same with colon cancer, testicular cancer, ovarian cancer, or cervical cancer. Some things just weren't talked about in "polite" company. Notice all of those cancers involve body parts that some think should be hidden away. Well the same can be said about mental illness. We need to realize that, just like cancer or heart disease, mental health is a condition that needs to be discussed.
Do I think some mental illnesses are over diagnosed? Hell Yes! ADHD/ADD in specific. Everyone wants their kid(s) to pay attention to a teacher for 8 hours a day, without realizing that kid needs a break so they can fidget! I do know a kid who has ADHD, along with Bipolar disease, and something else I can't remember right now. His mother has always dealt with it in an open manner, but his teachers and his father want it to be a "secret" so he won't be stigmatized later on in life. This kid is a Jr. in High School this year, and pulls in solid B's for grades. He will never be the straight A student, but at least, thanks to his Mom, his teachers realize he is going to fidget, will need to get up and walk around occasionally, and will need a little more one-on-one instruction than the other kids in the class.
Personally, I think by labeling almost anything as being addictive, the medical and mental health professions are trying to make more money off of us. C'mon...Facebook addiction? :rolleyes: I also think that by labeling such things as addictions, attention to REAL addictions, and mental illnesses in general, are getting short-changed!
As Munchkin said:
"For some people, as I understand it, there is no choice after they have become "addicted". They are compelled to use their drug of choice, usually with horrible results."
But the choice to follow the compulsion is a choice. I quit using meth (not-so) simply by not putting the pipe up to my lips, not 'scoring', not being around other users, by not being a user anymore(though,technically, still an addict). I did it on my own, some people need help from outside sources. as long as they stay the course, the compulsion fades. It can be very terrifying to stop using something so addictive, but the choice is in the hands of the addict not the drug.
For fuck's sake have you never heard of alcohol withdrawal?! :weird:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmunchkin
Very many things have the potential to be abused or be the focus of an addiction. Addiction isn't defined by the focus itself (although anything that has the potential to activate our reward systems, lead to tolerance, and cause withdrawal or abstinence symptoms should be seen as a likely candidate), it's defined by addictive behaviour. Just because you can kick meth on your own (good for you) doesn't mean you can't get addicted to meth. Alcohol abuse and addiction are among the greatest medical and social problems plaguing western societies today and you just want to dismiss it as imaginary? :bulb:
As to the failings you're attributing today's lazy degenerate youth, er, you seemed to be describing yourself :confused:
Not sure what you're getting on Munchie about here. She clearly stated that addiction is very real, just that it was often an abused term. As far as alcohol, she simply stated her opinion that nicotine is much harder to quit. The laziness of the spoiled youth has always been true, even when I was one of 'em. It is a fact that many people try to claim they are 'addicted' to this or that as a way of avoiding responsibility for the consequences of this or that. Not that it's impossible to be addicted to this or that, but that it is an overused excuse.
From Munchkin:Quote:
Originally Posted by rumrunner
and that's thatQuote:
Other, so-called addictions, like booze and cigarettes
Yeah, or maybe addiction and substance abuse are in fact very common problems, much like many other mental disorders, much like many other disorders period.Quote:
It is a fact that many people try to claim they are 'addicted' to this or that as a way of avoiding responsibility for the consequences of this or that. Not that it's impossible to be addicted to this or that, but that it is an overused excuse.
Wow, one partial sentence out of a long post, "and that's that". A post, btw, that admits that these things are addictive and that the poster has been addicted to them. Just because you don't like the way the arguement was made, don't attack the facts with peicemeal logic. Look at the entire post to find the intent of the poster, you know, the context. No one is saying that addiction is not a real problem, but it is an often abused term. Are you saying that no doctor or psychologist would invent a new addiction or disorder for the sole purpose of getting published? Are you saying that no one would claim to be addicted to excuse their behavior? These are the type of things munch was saying IMO.
Absolutely. Probably more common than people know. Many casual or social drinkers don't realize that, over time and tolerance, their body can show withdrawal symptoms. Used to see it all the time, especially middle-aged men accustomed to martini business lunches, cocktail dinners, beers on the golf course, scotch before bed. After a few days or a week in the hospital they'd start to sweat, get antsy, shaky hands, crazy dreams, sometimes hallucinate, show confusion and black-out periods. There was always a tendency to blame side effects of anesthesia or pain meds, and another med was given to treat the symptoms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Denial is very powerful.....
munch, I wonder if that happened to you in the hospital, so they gave you narcotics and anti-psychotics. Sounded just like alcohol withdrawal. It can be confused with symptoms of fever, anxiety, blood glucose drops and spikes, insomnia, medication side effects, all sorts of "other" things. And yes, it can be fatal.
I was putting those lines in the context of the post and the poster. It's possible that Munchkin's meaning was lost in her phrasing, but my interpretation--that alcohol or cigarette (or meth!) addictions aren't really real because some people can kick them on their own or simply because they just "don't count" in Munchkinland--isn't an unreasonable one. I don't recall whether she ever acknowledged her own abuse of/addiction to alcohol, cigarettes, and painkillers, btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by rumrunner
Munchkin often says things that aren't supported by or are relevant to reality :( what makes you think "addiction" is an "often abused term"? What makes you think that doctors and psychologists are "inventing new addictions and disorders [for the purpose of getting published]"? How often do you think these things actually happen?Quote:
No one is saying that addiction is not a real problem, but it is an often abused term. Are you saying that no doctor or psychologist would invent a new addiction or disorder for the sole purpose of getting published? Are you saying that no one would claim to be addicted to excuse their behavior? These are the type of things munch was saying IMO.
I don't doubt that some people have a physical withdrawl from alcohol. Those are the people who need help! The people who don't have a physical withdrawl don't need to be wasting their time and money talking to a therapist! Unless, of course, quitting drinking is making them seriously depressed, or they have some other mental health issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
No, I wasn't in "alcohol withdrawl"! Even all those doctors agree I wasn't in withdrawl of any kind. I had already been in the hospital for 2 weeks when I landed in ICU, plus I hadn't had a drink since Dec. 24! If I was gonna have a withdrawl, I sure as hell would have already done it. What put me in ICU, and made me go over the edge, was the 25 liters of fluid on my legs/belly, pushing up onto my lungs, which gave me pneumonia. Then I got a strep infection in my blood. They were pumping me so full of shit that they are certain that is what caused my mental break with reality. Plus, I was fighting them every inch of the way, trying to pull out my breathing tube and IV lines. They started giving me the anti-psychotic drugs to try to calm me down! Then reality went away! :( Very scary shit!
While I will admit a psychological addiction (not physical) to the cigarettes, they are actually more of a habit at certain times of day. I also admit to abusing alcohol! Abuse is a whole different animal that addiction! I have NEVER abused or been addicted to pain meds. I use them as sparingly as possible, while still keeping the pain in my back under control. How the fuck does that translate into abuse/addiction?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Hmmm, so what happened to me isn't relevant to reality? Trust me, not drinking is not that easy. But it's not a physical craving, its a craving to have people around me. I don't want a drink! I don't need a drink! Being a very social person, this staying home by myself all the time is very trying!Quote:
Munchkin often says things that aren't supported by or are relevant to reality :( what makes you think "addiction" is an "often abused term"? What makes you think that doctors and psychologists are "inventing new addictions and disorders [for the purpose of getting published]"? How often do you think these things actually happen?
Hmmm, what makes me think the term addiction is being overused? Well hell, we now have Facebook addiction, exercise addiction, TV addiction, sex addiction, work addiction, and being addicted to being addicted to something! Jebus!! :mad: If you don't think those addictions were made up by doctors for the purpose of getting more people into therapy, thus making said doctors more money, then you might be the one without a grasp on reality! Frankly, if someone enjoys doing something, not a drug or alcohol, some doctor will decide they are addicted. I think that happens more often than you think!
Sometimes the word addiction is used interchangeably with addictive. Dependency and/or abuse might explain some behavior, too. Sex, exercise, and work can be an addiction to some people, munch. The point is that it can be difficult to impossible for some to stop doing XYZ, no matter how much they may want to. There are meds to reduce physical cravings, even certain foods can help.
Withdrawal cold turkey can be dangerous for some people, depending on their addiction. Hell, even abruptly stopping anti-depressants can cause real problems, so they have to be tapered. Someone who's been taking narcotics for years shouldn't just cold turkey, either. It's got nothing to do with Willpower or Character.
That said, our culture does love its pills and potions. ADD/ADHD may be diagnosed more often now, but some really DO need medication, not just behavior modification.
EDIT to munch---that abdominal fluid is called ascites. Look it up. Now, I'm not going to second-guess your physicians, but everything you describe sounds like cirrhosis and its secondary problems. You've also told us how many pain meds you've been taking over the years, even your dad's. With a compromised liver, those things build up and can be toxic. I hope to hell they've discontinued that Lyrica now.....
Sex, exercise, and work are not things that can be physically "addictive". They are more mental/psychological "addictions". IMO, if something does not cause a metabolic change in your brain, it is not an "addiction", it is a habit that can be broken without help! Those are the kind of things that are "make believe" addictions that are dreamed up by doctors and psychologists, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
I have never denied that some (maybe most) people have serious problems withdrawing from drugs...hell, maybe even alcohol. If they have withdrawal symptoms that are physical, they should see an MD first. If they are having physical problems, a counselor for the brain isn't gonna help much! Of course, if they get thru the physical withdrawal, if they have enough willpower to stay away from their drug of choice, there is no need to pay a counselor. If they don't have any willpower, and need a crutch, then let them pay out for someone to talk to them. Of course, talking about whatever you are addicted to can make psychological cravings worse.Quote:
Withdrawal cold turkey can be dangerous for some people, depending on their addiction. Hell, even abruptly stopping anti-depressants can cause real problems, so they have to be tapered. Someone who's been taking narcotics for years shouldn't just cold turkey, either. It's got nothing to do with Willpower or Character.
That said, our culture does love its pills and potions. ADD/ADHD may be diagnosed more often now, but some really DO need medication, not just behavior modification.
They ran a great many tests on my pancreas/liver/gallbladder/etc. All of those tests say my liver is functioning properly! Yes, I have taken a great many pain pills in the last 3 years 4 months since my back was injured. Yes, I even took Dad's when I didn't have any and the drug store was closed. (He didn't take very many of them because, with his narcolepsy, they made him more sleepy than usual. He hated that, so just lived with the pain! :()Quote:
EDIT to munch---that abdominal fluid is called ascites. Look it up. Now, I'm not going to second-guess your physicians, but everything you describe sounds like cirrhosis and its secondary problems. You've also told us how many pain meds you've been taking over the years, even your dad's. With a compromised liver, those things build up and can be toxic. I hope to hell they've discontinued that Lyrica now.....
Just so you know, I take the Vicodin very sparingly! My prescription says "take 1 tablet 4 times a day", most days I take 2 tablets a day, because I don't like the side effects of getting all hyper (especially since I am so tired and weak anyway) and then the "drop" of energy as it starts to wear off, making me want a damned nap in the evening. Then I don't sleep at night! :( And, yes, they still have me on the Lyrica. They don't want to take me off of it until after the Infectious Diseases doctor has had a chance to do another MRI to see if the fluid around my bottom 3 discs is something to worry about. Also, they don't want to take me off of it until they can get a back specialist to look at the MRI and decide if I need another steroid shot in my lower back, or if I need surgery to move that nerve. They are afraid of the nerve swelling back up and causing me more trouble than I already am having. Trust me, a month in bed did NOT help my back one little bit. If anything, it made it worse! :cry:
Your opinion is not based on science, though. Anything that triggers a response in the body/brain can become physically addictive. The only change in definition is if it's "healthy" or "harmful". Athletes and extreme risk takers are, indeed, "addicted" to adrenaline or endorphins. Nothing make-believe about it. An athlete or workaholic that's suddenly injured or retired will show signs of frustration, anger, depression, insomnia, etc. Unless they've got a replacement of some sort, they go through a type of physical withdrawal.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmunchkin
If that works for you, that's great. But most people can benefit from learning WHY they ended up addicted to XYZ in the first place, so they can deal with the underlying problem and not just the substance or activity. There are plenty of psycho-social reasons, and it can be truly difficult emotional work. Many addicts have to learn how to totally revamp their social lives. Totally. The people who used to be "friends" can be toxic, alluring, tempting. Friends or spouses can be part of the problem, enabling or sabotaging the addict. That's why addictions are referred to as Family Problems, because they rarely occur in isolation. It's fairly hard for anyone to completely re-structure their lives, let alone addicts.Quote:
I have never denied that some (maybe most) people have serious problems withdrawing from drugs...hell, maybe even alcohol. If they have withdrawal symptoms that are physical, they should see an MD first. If they are having physical problems, a counselor for the brain isn't gonna help much! Of course, if they get thru the physical withdrawal, if they have enough willpower to stay away from their drug of choice, there is no need to pay a counselor. If they don't have any willpower, and need a crutch, then let them pay out for someone to talk to them. Of course, talking about whatever you are addicted to can make psychological cravings worse.
One great TV show that exemplifies this is Rescue Me. :up:
Also, I object to your use of words like Crutch or Willpower, and delegitimizing counselors or talk therapy. That simply stigmatizes the very things you claimed should be de-stigmatized. :bulb:
This is ridiculous. Exercise addiction is real and can be very dangerous, sex-addiction is real and can severely hamper a person's ability to have a normal life, ditto for internet-addiction, and so very much more so for alcohol and cigarettes. What on earth are you on that makes you insist (once again!) that we should lend more weight to your anecdotes and your impressions than to the real world? It's like you're saying, Munchkin counts, other people don't. Only Munchkin's experiences pertaining to addiction count, other people's don't. Only Munchkin's ideas count, other people's don't--especially not those of psychiatrists, because they're just out to steal people's money and all these addictions annoy Munchkin, but then again Munchkin is annoyed by so many things.
PS. Did you know that mind = brain = body?
PSPS. Did you know that you are, for some reason, defining an addiction as something no addict can break on his own? Ie. that if someone can break out of it, it's not an addiction? Or, put another way, if Munchkin fancies herself able to break out of it--or has seen someone she likes break out of it--it doesn't count as a really real addiction? Jesus, that is not okay.