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I wonder about this sometimes. We clearly have no problems with permitting such behaviour when it comes to things like knowing the ultimate truth about: human behaviour; systems of government; the structure and style of good posts. Is morality or character that different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Would you rather show that video to a group of teenagers, or present them with someone who's achieved something in life, through their own hardships and whatnot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Yeah this is getting really annoying. I don't say something with the intention of it being "implicitly understood", I say something so that it's read as it is. What if I were to say to you "I like you", what now? Do you think I want to rape you? Engage in a relationship? Start a friendship?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
I only mentioned two people that I had personally known. Whilst they very nearly did screw up their lives, many others that we had known of did, so yes there is an objectivie difference. Anyway, why are you so opposed to my position? That such movements, or advocating such lifestyles have the possibility of "recruiting" impressionable teenagers and very easily ruining their lives. I don't care that a few, or a handful of professionals get by in life with the occassional (or frequent) binge drinking, drug taking and so on, it's the one's that don't "make it through" that concern me.Quote:
So, basically, the people who did take drugs and the people who didn't are more or less both just getting on with their lives and though none of you have done much yet you're still, young etc etc... but for some reason those who didn't take drugs get points for 'trying to do something' even though there seems to be no particular objective difference between what both groups are actually doing?
Sure, if it'll make you stop talking about what I was really thinking when I said what I said:rolleyes:Quote:
So? You knew it was a stupid thing to say but you typed it in anyway? Do you want a medal?
I don't lead such a lifestyle where I laze around outside, drink alcohol as if it were water, and become "f*ed up on e*. I respect myself, I respect my body, my mind, brain, etc. I'm not willing to risk damaging it for some cheap thrill. I know what I want out of my life (more or less), I have a set of core morals/values that I'm not going to betray, I'm consistent in upholding them in all aspects of my life, so I live with integrity (although I'll be honest, I haven't quite gotten there yet, to the point where I can say I live 100% with integrity, there's still some stuff I'm figuring out ;) but don't hold it against me:rolleyes:)Quote:
Well, if you don't want me to do that then why don't you explain what you mean when you use the words "self-respect" and integrity" and how you can't have them if you drink heavily, have lots of causal sex or take drugs?
It was just an example:|Quote:
No one will notice you've suddenly shifted from taking about people who use drugs to people who produce them. :bored:
If it works for them, so be it. They may have achieved what they wanted out of their life, so there's no immediate risk. I'm mainly targeting a younger audience, one that is more susceptible to such a lifestyle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flixy
Well I don't see a problem with that either (going by what you said). Doesn't sound like you're pursuing such a lifestyle as what these "juggalo" people are.Quote:
I will agree that if you use too much alcohol/drugs, so that it affects your day-to-day life negatively (e.g. being stoned or drunk nonstop), that's not good, and stops you from achieving what you want, but I don't see anything wrong with recreational drinking, drug use, or sleeping around (I would say that last one is probably always recreational :p). If I'm completely fucked up saturday night, but still make my monday morning lecture, keep up with homework and pass my exams, I don't see a problem with that.
I doubt they laze around in the sun all day, take drugs, dance randomly to music and have their faces painted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon
I haven't driven anyone away, it's the other way around. Not that I care so much, I've gotten use to not having any genuine friends. They're only there for "entertainment", to have a laugh on a series of jokes that I've outgrown mostly.Quote:
Your attitude that your view is "right" is probably why you have driven away many friends of yours, and many friends might just say you're right so they don't have to listen to you.
I don't know what the whole argument is about anymore. Everyone jumped on me because I expressed my views that such people lead destructive lifestyles. It's as if being a "juggalo" were a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch the Red
:heart:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
If the person has conditioned themselves in such a state, then thinking otherwise would be near impossible I imagine. It's an awful way to live for sure.Quote:
Does feeling bad strike you as being easy? How do you think it feels to not have much self-respect? How do you think it feels to be in a position where you're driven to "choose" various escapes from reality because you just know you can't actually solve your problems, that terrible is as good as it's gonna get for you, and you probably don't even deserve better? What kind of reality do you think that might be? And do you really think you can escape from such a reality, as eg. an addict?
Well like I said earlier, I don't have any genuine friends, they're only there for their own entertainment, to talk about their life. I did have one but he turned into a bitch (and is now trying to rekindle our old friendship..no thanks).Quote:
Mate, maybe you're looking to the wrong people for help and support. Maybe they're bad friends, or maybe they're not able to appreciate what you're trying to convey about your feelings, or maybe they can't properly convey their support, or maybe they're also bad at exercising their empathy. Who knows. Thank your lucky stars they say, "Yep, yep, ok," instead of "Serves you right; what did you expect?"
It's not that I seek out help, or support, it's just when you get into a conversation and you just ramble on about stuff that's going on in your life, they don't show any interest. So I don't care anymore, I just ramble on anyway and see if something registers.Quote:
It's a shame you feel you aren't getting what you want and need out of these relationships, but I don't know if you should let your personal experiences with unrewarding friendships ruin the way you relate to humanity in general.
Well I'll look into it ;) I use to be empathetic as a teenager, but gave it up over the years.Quote:
And I say this not because I think you're a blight on humanity; I say it because I think it's causing you more unhappiness than happiness. Exercising your empathy isn't going to make you weaker. It might instead make you stronger and more in touch with your own humanity. And that might help you better deal with your world, your relationships, and with your own issues (because we gotta be able to empathise with ourselves too). Look, it isn't easy, but you don't wanna take the easy way out, do you?
Was this done for dramatic effect? :pQuote:
Do you??
*insert pensive smiley*Quote:
I invite you to consider the possibility that judging people in the way you do is taking the easy way out in order to escape reality.
So, actually, there is nothing morally wrong with it? Considering your point was that it's always wrong, that it goes against all morals and values, etc., but basically it's only wrong if it fucks your life up? Also, I definitely count myself as a young audience, and have been drinking since I was 15. I don't mind if someone doesn't drink/has casual sex/does drugs, it's up to him, if that's his choice, fine. But I do have a problem with people who condemn others for making different choices, and feel they have superior morals and values.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
Gosh, Draco, it sounds like you need to make new friends if they don't mean anything to you... I can't remember how old you are, but you certainly should seek out people who are more in tune with your feelings and have similar interests (but not identical, we all need variety in our life!). I really worry when people don't at least have one or two good friends they are comfortable with. I don't have many "true" friends, but the ones I do have I value very much. I know that they are real with me, I don't have to worry around them. Well, they may occasionally do something dumb but nothing that would make me question our friendships.Quote:
Well like I said earlier, I don't have any genuine friends, they're only there for their own entertainment, to talk about their life. I did have one but he turned into a bitch (and is now trying to rekindle our old friendship..no thanks).
Sometimes our roles as friends are to be the ones to listen, but it's nice to have a friend who can reciprocate and listen when you have troubles. If you don't have that in a person (and that's not limited to just friends but a relative even), you may want to reevaluate your friends/acquaintances and why you are hanging out with them if they aren't what you look for in a valued friend.
Not to say you can't hang around them anymore, but this may be a sign for you to move on to greener pastures. :)
(I'm not harping on you about the other stuff because I frankly have no interest in it, it was just this one quote that stood out for me.)
This is alarming. I know you don't understand why, and if you're not trolling, likely never will, but still. This is, again, you passing judgement on a group of people and in the same process trying to censor that information in favor of something you personally find less offensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
What do you see in this video that gets your panties in such a twist? Cause I see a couple of musicans that came from no where, and not only manage to exploit our this nation's capitalist behavior, but they manage to do it while pointing out that they are doing so. I see a group of talented people that managed to get their music out to the masses and in turn discovered a kindred spirit in a surprising number of fans. I see a gathering thats been going on for more than a decade without any major incidents. I see interview after interview expressing that these people hold family in very high regard. I see people who look out for each other, even if they are strangers. I see the employeed, I even see managers. I see dopefiends and I see people who haven't ever touched drugs. I see these people all managing to mingle together without problem. I see people who accept anyone, no matter what. I see people who aren't made uncomfortable because of some skin. I see people having fun, without hurting anyone.
What the fuck do you see that ends up with your nose pointed so high towards the sky?
Hey Draco I warmly recommend slowly letting go of the anger you feel towards the friend who betrayed your faith in him and maybe I dunno getting coffee or something. You don't have to be best buddies again or anything but there are few things more relieving or better for your immortal soul :)
I present to you a gem from the chat room:
Taken slightly out of context and redacted for nefarious purposes but not a crazy thought perhapsQuote:
definition of a good friendship, where you can say unforgivable things and still be friends afterwards
Well thanks for the concern (unlike the harrassment I've been getting from the likes of OG and Steely Glint). For the time being I'm not actively seeking out any new friends, but I always keep the option open. Actually I did make a new friend a few weeks ago, this random girl I started a conversation with at a food court near my university. She had a book on philosophy and we started off that, she seems nice. I guess I haven't had the same "luck" as others when it comes to friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catgrrl
Well like I said, they're only there for the 'entertainment' and so am I. We have a similar sense of humour (that I've found I'm quickly outgrowing) and that's about it.Quote:
Sometimes our roles as friends are to be the ones to listen, but it's nice to have a friend who can reciprocate and listen when you have troubles. If you don't have that in a person (and that's not limited to just friends but a relative even), you may want to reevaluate your friends/acquaintances and why you are hanging out with them if they aren't what you look for in a valued friend.
I never made a point that drinking was always wrong (just a few days ago I had a glass of wine!:surprise:). Just that I think it's wrong if you pursue it actively, if you do it to avoid your problems/reality, if you make it the centre of your life as what those people in the video were doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flixy
What the fuck is your problem with my view against these juggalo people??Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Seriously some of you need to back off, it's as if I said "they should all be killed off" or god knows what. Get over it. I simply expressed my disapproval of their type of lifestyle, of how it can easily suck in impressionable teenagers, and now some of you have turned it on me, make me seem like I'm this nasty person who walks around with his "nose pointed so high towards the sky" that I'm superior and god knows what else you've all managed to conjour up about me. Actually I'm done with you and anyone else who's going to continue their attack against me. You and Steely Glint have taken this WAY out of context, and I'm fed up with continuing this argument, of having to justify myself to you two.
I've known others like him before and they never (or rarely) change. I actually approached him about it all and told him how I felt, why I was so distant from him and you know what he did? He kept on changing the friggin topic to something completely unrelated...so I give up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
As for that quote, I don't agree. I'm not going to remain friends with someone if they insult me directly, with the purpose of upsetting me, or telling other people personal matters that I disclosed to them. Those type of friendships have never worked.
Maybe he's one of those people who thinks that not talking about bad things is a good way to fix problems. It's very manly and usually very wrong, but it's the way we're trained to be so sometimes we have to have it pointed out to us. Guys can and should have heart-to-heart talks about serious things like how it felt to have your trust betrayed or about how and why that trust was betrayed :noob: Whatever his reasons, if he wants to try again then he should both get a chance to do so and some guidance because guys suck at mind-reading. If he's too thick or too uncomfortable to get it even after you explain it to him then fine, you did what you could and he's an unfortunate dullard. Or maybe he just has difficulties handling you being gay, what the hell do I know. A lot of guys do, you know, even good and fairly decent guys. See Rockandrolla fr an illustrative example :o
I'm just saying, from personal experience, I know some people actually need you to point out that, "Hey, this is actually important to me and you're just dodging it. That's not going to work for me." It's kinda difficult to sneak away from a question like, "Do you understand why we stopped being friends? What do you think happened?" or, "I told you in confidence of my hatred of yellow that no-one knew about and you told everyone at that party--even though it was and still is only my prerogative to share--and mocked me for it behind my back. Do you have any idea how I felt? It wasn't okay man." or, "Are you sorry?"
Like I said, I don't expect people to be best buddies after a serious violation of trust. What I'm saying is that being able to forgive other people their transgressions against us is important if we want to move on. As long as we don't, these things continue to affect us in more or less subtle ways. For example, a past experience with having my complete and total trust in a friend be betrayed may make future friendships seem far too risky, or may make me have far too high demands on future friendships to the point where no-one will be good enough. I'll be suspicious the whole time and see even normal mistakes as being signs of their total inadequacy, I'll demand people prove themselves to me but also judge them before they have the chance, etc. These reactions aren't unreasonable but they will undoubtedly lead me to make worse decisions and to also feel worse than I need to, because of the very strong drive the feeling of being wronged has on our behavior... until we can let go of it.
I realise we're two different people. I'm a person who's spent many years of my life being a principled and righteous man who's been wronged by various people. The things they did were inexcusable, unforgivable--or so I thought. I was very angry for a very long time, but I didn't know it. Anger worked for a while because anger is powerful and effective and in many situations it helps us cope. But I saw it as strength of character. I imagined I was doing myself and my friends and my world a great service by being hard and principled and uncompromising, by having expectations and demands. It took years before I realised that I couldn't relax, I couldn't give myself a break, I could just barely trust my friends, that I had a tendency to strain my few remaining friendships, occasionally by being an outright jerk to people who love me (but of course I didn't really feel loved, or feel like we were friends), that I was unnecessarily seeking/seeing conflicts or seeking things to disapprove of and that this was causing me to waste a lot of time and energy, etc etc.
When I was able to let go of most of that a whole new world opened up to me. Actually it was the same world but now I could live in it and people could put up with me a little better :noob: few things have done more for my happiness and for my personal relationships. Like I said, we're different people you and I but I think that my experiences are at least a little relevant to whatever it is you're experiencing now. Forgive your former friend so that you can move on and establish new friendships with decent boys and girls, free of off-putting anger and secure in the knowledge that people are mostly imperfect but mostly decent and that it's possible to like and be liked by such dummies (of which you are one :downcast: ). Try to see how they can be at their best and don't punish them when they're just okay and maybe they'll mostly be good. Or something.
:heart:
But I hear gays can be very prickly, I dunno how true this is :o
It was a simple question because you haven't provided context yet. You blamed the left, which everyone laughed at, then you played the victim card. I tried to show you that its not the content, but the context, and instead of you responding with a thought out opinion instead of some kneejerk reaction, you went back to being the victim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
:down:
Fucking leftists man, how do they work? :-O
^^OG: I've explained myself enough :) I've asked quite a few questions of which the likes of you haven't replied, but I'm not boo-hoo-ing over it. Get over it already.
I think a part of him avoids such 'conflicts', he'll avoid most debates in real life, but online, he goes all out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Well he's gay too. Part of the reason why we got along so well in the first place, because we had the same morals, views and such. As for giving him another chance, I really doubt it. I still associate with him (although rarely, since he doesn't make an attempt to keep in contact), but it's not the same, and I don't think it ever will be.Quote:
Whatever his reasons, if he wants to try again then he should both get a chance to do so and some guidance because guys suck at mind-reading. If he's too thick or too uncomfortable to get it even after you explain it to him then fine, you did what you could and he's an unfortunate dullard. Or maybe he just has difficulties handling you being gay, what the hell do I know. A lot of guys do, you know, even good and fairly decent guys. See Rockandrolla fr an illustrative example :o
Nice one ;)Quote:
It's kinda difficult to sneak away from a question like, "Do you understand why we stopped being friends? What do you think happened?"
To be honest, I've never seen the point in forgiveness, nor do I understand what people mean when they profess that one should forgive.Quote:
Like I said, I don't expect people to be best buddies after a serious violation of trust. What I'm saying is that being able to forgive other people their transgressions against us is important if we want to move on. As long as we don't, these things continue to affect us in more or less subtle ways.
I've noticed that with myself, almost paranoia. But I remind myself: if there's no evidence, if I don't have any ground to base it off, then it's nothing.Quote:
For example, a past experience with having my complete and total trust in a friend be betrayed may make future friendships seem far too risky, or may make me have far too high demands on future friendships to the point where no-one will be good enough. I'll be suspicious the whole time and see even normal mistakes as being signs of their total inadequacy, I'll demand people prove themselves to me but also judge them before they have the chance, etc.
Well I'm not that bad :pQuote:
I realise we're two different people. I'm a person who's spent many years of my life being a principled and righteous man who's been wronged by various people. The things they did were inexcusable, unforgivable--or so I thought. I was very angry for a very long time, but I didn't know it. Anger worked for a while because anger is powerful and effective and in many situations it helps us cope. But I saw it as strength of character. I imagined I was doing myself and my friends and my world a great service by being hard and principled and uncompromising, by having expectations and demands. It took years before I realised that I couldn't relax, I couldn't give myself a break, I could just barely trust my friends, that I had a tendency to strain my few remaining friendships, occasionally by being an outright jerk to people who love me (but of course I didn't really feel loved, or feel like we were friends), that I was unnecessarily seeking/seeing conflicts or seeking things to disapprove of and that this was causing me to waste a lot of time and energy, etc etc.
Well I'll see how I go with this forgiveness business! Although I certainly won't be letting that one experience dictate how I associate with any future potential friends.:)Quote:
When I was able to let go of most of that a whole new world opened up to me. Actually it was the same world but now I could live in it and people could put up with me a little better :noob: few things have done more for my happiness and for my personal relationships. Like I said, we're different people you and I but I think that my experiences are at least a little relevant to whatever it is you're experiencing now. Forgive your former friend so that you can move on and establish new friendships with decent boys and girls, free of off-putting anger and secure in the knowledge that people are mostly imperfect but mostly decent and that it's possible to like and be liked by such dummies (of which you are one :downcast: ). Try to see how they can be at their best and don't punish them when they're just okay and maybe they'll mostly be good. Or something.
Good, 'cause it'd be very boring otherwise :downcast: friendship is the best drug :o
Re. the point of forgiveness, one point is that it's a very effective way to resolve things. Esp. conflicts and inner turmoil. If there's no clear benefit to preserving conflict or turmoil then my view is that it's good to just resolve it. Forgiving is probably the most effective way to unilaterally resolve something, and apologising is second best. They're both very inviting, almost irresistible, to the other party. Can also be very relieving, perhaps because they represent an almost universally accepted way to fix things (I've made an effort to make amends) and to put them behind you (you have made amends). As you start tacking on qualifiers and conditions they become progressively less attractive and useful. Being able to readily apologise and to forgive are skills crucial to successful, loving personal relationships. That's my opinion as a scientist :o
Yeah I see what you mean now ;) I think I just figured it out whilst reading your response. :up:
Cheers mate good luck :up:
:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Friendship is magic
:up:
I like your thinking and reaction to the word 'drug', you and I would make great friends ;) :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Nessus
Yes, it is. When you say "I disapprove of binge drinking" there are only three things you can mean. You definitely don't mean people should go binge drinking, you don't mean you're indifferent to people doing it so you must mean you think people shouldn't do it. Why is this such a hard thing for you to grasp?Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
You didn't actually give numbers for any other category, so I naturally assumed that you were hiding something.Quote:
I only mentioned two people that I had personally known. Whilst they very nearly did screw up their lives, many others that we had known of did, so yes there is an objectivie difference.
Fun game: the people who screw up their lives and take drugs - did they screw up their lives because they took drugs, or did they take drugs for the same reason they also screwed up their lives? Causation can be tricky that way.Quote:
Anyway, why are you so opposed to my position? That such movements, or advocating such lifestyles have the possibility of "recruiting" impressionable teenagers and very easily ruining their lives. I don't care that a few, or a handful of professionals get by in life with the occassional (or frequent) binge drinking, drug taking and so on, it's the one's that don't "make it through" that concern me.
As to why I am so opposed to your position, there are a number of reasons for that. One is that your position has always been more than about drugs, you've just honed in on drugs because they really can screw up lives and your position is more justified with them than the other things you've taken it upon yourself to look down upon: causal sex and drinking. They don't 'screw up your life', you've just decided that they're incompatible with "self-respect", "integrity" and any number of other bullshit terms you haven't bothered to define.
Second, it's really none of your damn business whether people "screw up" their lives or not. The fundamental drive of all people is to seek happiness, if you get that from a successful career, a family, then cool, if you don't give a shit about those things and get it from partying, screwing around and spending most of your days out of your skull then that's cool too as far as I am concerned. There is no a priori reason why one is somehow a higher goal in life than the other.
You could say here that people who take the path of sex, drugs and rock and roll are just taking happiness now in exchange for misery and an early death later, but again, that's kind of their chose to make. You could also say that people making this choice are not aware that they're actually making it (i.e. they haven't really thought about what the consequences of their current life-style is for their future), which is a point I would take seriously if you were actively involved in helping people with addictions or anything actually useful like that. Instead, all you're doing is sitting on the Internet tutting at people who harm no one.
As for the "juggalos", well, I pretty much think it's retarded, but also that is harmless compared to a lot of other things impressionable kids looking for direction in life could get involved in, like gangs for example.
Why does "laz[ing] around outside, drink[ing] alcohol as if it were water, and [getting] "f*ed up on e*" mean you don't respect yourself, your body, your brain, etc? Why is not being willing to damage your body for a cheap thrill better than being willing to risk damaging it for a cheap thrill? You say you know what you want out of life, I'd say that an archetypal juggalo also knows what they want out of life: lazing around outside, drinking alcohol as if it were water and getting fucking up on e. Why does wanting what you want out of life make you better than wanting what Ted Juggalo wants?Quote:
I don't lead such a lifestyle where I laze around outside, drink alcohol as if it were water, and become "f*ed up on e*. I respect myself, I respect my body, my mind, brain, etc. I'm not willing to risk damaging it for some cheap thrill. I know what I want out of my life (more or less), I have a set of core morals/values that I'm not going to betray, I'm consistent in upholding them in all aspects of my life, so I live with integrity.
Yeah, there's a pretty big different, morally, between a guy who does weed every now and again and Columbian drug lord or something. You can't just use them interchangeability.Quote:
It was just an example:|