UK vetoes EU Treaty Change

Actually, isn't it true that Germany is the strongest nation, with the smallest amount of sovereign debt...and is being expected to carry the whole damn eurozone (along with France)? You can say Germans and Merkel are willing to act for the common good, but they've also balked at those not using the same German thrifty principles--pretty much everyone outside Germany--while acknowledging they're carrying the loads of those other nations.

The looming problem in the eurozone looks like rising nationalism, the break-up or fracture of unity, and the demise of the euro as a shared currency. I don't say that as a 'euro skeptic', but based on what's happening in real time.

That is ludicrous, this entire problem is due to the flaws of the Eurozone (which we wisely chose to stay out of given those flaws). Furthermore the key parts of this new treaty is just supposed to be re-establishing what was already set in the Growth and Stability Pact. And who was it who tore shreds through the Growth and Stability Pact by being a member of the Eurozone, flouting its rules then refusing to let it be applied to them?

Germany's Schroeder and France's Chirac.

The UK could have not existed and this crisis would still be happening.

I still don't know why you're still in the EU. We don't need you.

Trade. What else?

We're in it for the Common Market. All the other Mumbo-Jumbo that joined in with Maastricht (eg the Euro) we stayed out of.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Actually, isn't it true that Germany is the strongest nation, with the smallest amount of sovereign debt...and is being expected to carry the whole damn eurozone (along with France)? You can say Germans and Merkel are willing to act for the common good, but they've also balked at those not using the same German thrifty principles--pretty much everyone outside Germany--while acknowledging they're carrying the loads of those other nations.

The looming problem in the eurozone looks like rising nationalism, the break-up or fracture of unity, and the demise of the euro as a shared currency. I don't say that as a 'euro skeptic', but based on what's happening in real time.

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The nationalism of the Brits have always been paramount, and you are probably right there was a bit of a nationalist backlash when this crisis started. But now that people start to see what really is at stake thay are turning around. The sole exception of course being the selfish Brits.

Inside the eurozone everybody knows there will be common bonds and there will be limited activism by yhe ECB to weather this storm. But everybody also knows we don't want to go the way of the US by just printing our debt out of existence to the detriment of savers. Germany by no means is alone in this and with the exception of Greece and maybe Portugal the agreement will be bearable. It will also reduce public borrowing overall thus making it cheaper for businesses to finance their operations.

I for my part am happy the Brits are being shoved aside as they consistently have been a negative force in the Union. Unlike what Randblade claims, I was the one who said that at some time the other members of the EU would say enough to the eurohaters accross the Channels and relegate them to insignificance. That seems to be coming about and I have little doubt soon the markets will understand that the mickey mouse money overthere is a much easier target if they want to make bets against a currency.

Oh and that claim of the resident eurohater of course is false again; the UK signed up to all of the EU except the Euro. What their bulldog in charge tried to pull off last week was to roll back QMV on the financial sector of the single market.

When the average Tory opens his mouth about Europe expect some serious lies to come out.

It's extremely funny how one part of the British government is gloating over their non-veto, where the other part is fuming over it and calling it a major blow for Britain's position.

Funny how the "other part"'s leader originally backed the decision at first until the extremists in his party started mouthing off and backed him into a corner to complain.

Hey, it's not my government, don't shoot the messenger right? :D

By the way, the Scottish government is also fuming over Cameron's fail.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Funny how the "other part"'s leader originally backed the decision at first until the extremists in his party started mouthing off and backed him into a corner to complain.

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From what I've heard, he did not support a complete blockade...

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Originally Posted by Hazir

By the way, the Scottish government is also fuming over Cameron's fail.

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Oh diddums. :D

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Hey, it's not my government, don't shoot the messenger right? :D

By the way, the Scottish government is also fuming over Cameron's fail.

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That's about as meaningful as saying that the governor of Alabama opposes Obama.

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Originally Posted by Loki

That's about as meaningful as saying that the governor of Alabama opposes Obama.

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Except that this 'governor of Alabama' has a fighting chance of taking his part of the country out of the UK.

Would be extremely funny if the eurohaters in their attempts to bring down one union destroy another union :D

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Except that this 'governor of Alabama' has a fighting chance of taking his part of the country out of the UK.

Would be extremely funny if the eurohaters in their attempts to bring down one union destroy another union :D

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Oooh, I hope so :D

Serious question for Hazir: Supposedly this veto has left us isolated, but I'm pretty sure you've been calling us isolated for the last decade so I'm not sure what you think has changed.

In order to have become isolated on Friday, we must have not been so before then. Please can you name some rules or regulations drawn up to the benefit of the UK and against the wishes of France/Germany in the same was a FTT would be in their benefit and against ours.

EDIT: The serious crisis in the EU is not the stance of the UK, it is the fundamental failings of the Eurozone that have been exposed over the last year. This Merkozy plan does not address those. Already Francois Hollande has denounced it and said that if he is elected President of the French Republic then he'll "renegotiate" it. Funny I thought only crazy Brits wanted to renegotiate and it could never happen. The crisis has not been resolved, the yield on French and Spanish debts have actually increased since the deal was announced and not come down. It is just a matter of time until this all comes back into sharp focus again, while this Accord seems little more serious than the Growth and Stability Pact with the French already undermining it.

There are more important crises in Europe than the Anglo-Saxons, being isolated from the Eurozone is like complaining about being on a lifeboat instead of the Titanic so now we can't rearrange the deckchairs.

EDIT2: While its true that the UK alone can't block a QMV decision by the Eurozone+, its actually true that not just the UK but even the 10 non-Euro nations combined already couldn't block a QMV decision by the Eurozone. So no change there.

all the french are nationalists. They can't be trusted.
It's bad mojo all around

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Serious question for Hazir: Supposedly this veto has left us isolated, but I'm pretty sure you've been calling us isolated for the last decade so I'm not sure what you think has changed.

In order to have become isolated on Friday, we must have not been so before then. Please can you name some rules or regulations drawn up to the benefit of the UK and against the wishes of France/Germany in the same was a FTT would be in their benefit and against ours.

EDIT: The serious crisis in the EU is not the stance of the UK, it is the fundamental failings of the Eurozone that have been exposed over the last year. This Merkozy plan does not address those. Already Francois Hollande has denounced it and said that if he is elected President of the French Republic then he'll "renegotiate" it. Funny I thought only crazy Brits wanted to renegotiate and it could never happen. The crisis has not been resolved, the yield on French and Spanish debts have actually increased since the deal was announced and not come down. It is just a matter of time until this all comes back into sharp focus again, while this Accord seems little more serious than the Growth and Stability Pact with the French already undermining it.

There are more important crises in Europe than the Anglo-Saxons, being isolated from the Eurozone is like complaining about being on a lifeboat instead of the Titanic so now we can't rearrange the deckchairs.

EDIT2: While its true that the UK alone can't block a QMV decision by the Eurozone+, its actually true that not just the UK but even the 10 non-Euro nations combined already couldn't block a QMV decision by the Eurozone. So no change there.

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You see, this again shows that you don't understand the EU. The thing is that the EU isn't very much into voting at all in the intra-governmental circuits of the institution. Even in those areas where QMV technically applies there is a consistent search for consensus. That is especially true for matters that are somehow 'essential' to one or more memberstates. Since everybody knows they can be outvoted, nobody has an interest in a maximalist approach.

British governments, up till the yahoo's who run the show now, have always understood that. They knew that by a little push here, a little pull there directives could be bent in a way that they were acceptable for all. That process works for as long as you are at the table when the issue is discussend and there is good will between all parties.

By walking away last friday, thus forcing the others to strike a deal bypassing the UK, the UK has effectively ushered in a new forum where it won't be welcome and where the same process of concensus building will continue. That concensus will be standing before the UK is asked to join the negotiations. The concensus can not be outvoted, ever. And I think it's pretty clear that the UK lost what little good standing it had with the rest of the EU last friday. The europlus group will simply not care about outvoting the UK.

That is not the same as when the eurozone would have had to deal with 10 other countries within the EU. Then the eurozone would have the leverage of its votes of course, but it would still not have been in its interests to go maximalist and be unwilling to really negotiate, with the possibility of offending the 9 countries they do want to absorb at some time in the future.

You're still ignoring the real issue. We don't know if the Eurozone will even still exist as it does 12 months from now.

Getting back to reality and away from your superstate daydreams, the markets have been distinctly unimpressed with the Accord and now Italian yields are back above the critical 7% threshold while all day today the Euro has been losing value to Sterling and the Dollar. I would think now its about a 50-50 shot that when we go to the polls next in 2015 all 17 nations currently in the Euro still will be. I would hate to call it either way right now.

15 minutes ago Italian yields were 7.18% - well done!
http://markets.ft.com/RESEARCH/Marke...t-Bond-Spreads

If the eurozone does not exist any debate about the EU is moot. The EU will not survive a collapse of the eurozone.

Why not? The EU is more than the Eurozone and survived decades without it.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Because they actvely tried to sabotage finding a solution to a problem that is theathening the foundations of the EU. You can try to make this about 'me' again, but this is pretty much mainstream in Europe now. The Brits have gone too far this time.

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That's politics. Politics does not drive trading at anything but the shallowest levels.

"Loyalty" is also very shallow. Only a few months ago Sarkozy and Cameron were working together intimately over Lybia and it was Germany that were the outside refuseniks. The idea that next time something comes up where Britain has a common interest with either French or Germany against the other one that they'd refuse to work with us is absurd.

This is not an area where we were politically aligned with others. Next political issue may be different and realpolitik will play its course.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

The difference between Germans and Brits is that Germans actually are willing to act for the common good, the Brits are just arrogant and aloof only when it comes to application of rules. They consistently demand very vocally they should be allowed to shape rules for everytbody, for which they then demand an opt out for themselves.

This time they went too far, and everybody said 'screw you'. Not just the Germans or the French, everybody who possibly could have been harbouring doubts against the German-French proposal made it very clear they wanted nothing of the British plan. Even presumed 'out' Orban (PM of Hungary) went to great lengths telling everybody and his mother-in-law that they were not against the agreement and Orban didn't even want to be seen close to Cameron.

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Hazir, she didn't say Britain and German, she said you and Rand. You behave far more like your portrayal of the Brits, in attitude and actions, than you do the Germans.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

being isolated from the Eurozone is like complaining about being on a lifeboat instead of the Titanic so now we can't rearrange the deckchairs.

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It's just too bad that the lifeboat is still attached to the Titanic by a steel cable.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

It's just too bad that the lifeboat is still attached to the Titanic by a steel cable.

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Hey Steely, how glad are you now that the steel cable has now been detached?

(Was searching for something and found this instead and it amused me).