One Town's War on Gay Teens

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Originally Posted by Nessus

LEWK

I am curious; your interpretation of the situation allows for two views on suicide "survivors" (it seems to me), and I wonder which you'd subscribe to. On this forum, at least I and I think Bitter are people who genuinely tried to off ourselves in the past, but for whatever reason failed. Today, we're at least moderately successful people in our endeavors, and Bitter's in what I hear a good relationship to boot. Now, my question is:

Are our successes diminished due to our moral failing in the past, or

should we be held as exemplary to the children so selfishly choosing to die?

Is our transgression a taint so large in our history that we are forever painted black, do only those people who merely considered suicide fit the mold of the role-model? What weight does our moral failing hold, in your perspective, on us today? After all, the intent to be selfish was genuinely there.

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Nessus - not knowing you personally I couldn't say for sure but I really doubt you truly tried to kill yourself. Most attempted suicides are "cries for attention." Its incredibly easy to off yourself. A few minutes on Google can provide easy methods of near 100% chance of death.

In any event to answer your question - your past actions do not diminish your current actions. Just like a persons past good deeds don't excuse current evils a person may be committing. If you're a hero who saved 50 people's lives... your punishment should still be the same if you turn around and rape someone. Your suicide attempt should be vilified and if you admit that it was evil and have changed your ways then there is no reason why you couldn't be held up as a role model.

The biblical example of course is Paul. He murdered Christians before become an apostle. Does the murdering of Christians taint his later work? I don't believe so.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Most attempted suicides are "cries for attention." Its incredibly easy to off yourself. A few minutes on Google can provide easy methods of near 100% chance of death.

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Parasuicide constitutes the strongest risk factor for actual suicides.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

In case you missed it, he was referring to your judgement rather than to your polite information campaign :confused:

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"This is wrong." Is not the "judgement" Jesus is talking about.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

"This is wrong." Is not the "judgement" Jesus is talking about.

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"This is selfish" or "this is weak" is judgement and is not the same as "according to the Bible this is a sin". Re. not judging, you are welcome to judge once you're free of sin :o

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Originally Posted by Aimless

"This is selfish" or "this is weak" is judgement and is not the same as "according to the Bible this is a sin".

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That is selfish = That is immoral = That is a sin. Don't do it.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

That is selfish = That is immoral = That is a sin. Don't do it.

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Is suicide actually explicitly stated to be a heinous atrocious selfish act of sinning, in the Bible? I've been trying to find quotes but am coming up blank.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Is suicide actually explicitly stated to be a heinous atrocious selfish act of sinning, in the Bible? I've been trying to find quotes but am coming up blank.

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It is not specifically stated as "Don't kill yourself." However its pretty basic that God calls people to spread the good news, help others and give your life to God's service. Can't really do that when your dead. In addition God calls you to love your neighbor as yourself. Suicide is selfish because it does damage those around you. You're not loving your neighbor, you're not caring about your neighbor. You're making them suffer in order to end whatever perceived "unbearable suffering" that is going on.

Are you really suggesting that suicide is not immoral? I can't tell if your just being nit picky or if your actually trying to make a case that killing yourself is a OK.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

That is selfish = That is immoral = That is a sin. Don't do it.

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Perhaps if you actually read and understood my full reply to you, this would not have been posted; unless you're solely trying to explain your own thought process.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

It is not specifically stated as "Don't kill yourself." However its pretty basic that God calls people to spread the good news, help others and give your life to God's service. Can't really do that when your dead. In addition God calls you to love your neighbor as yourself. Suicide is selfish because it does damage those around you. You're not loving your neighbor, you're not caring about your neighbor. You're making them suffer in order to end whatever perceived "unbearable suffering" that is going on.

Are you really suggesting that suicide is not immoral? I can't tell if your just being nit picky or if your actually trying to make a case that killing yourself is a OK.

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Since you have shown yourself to be quite able to conjure up those "ticking timebomb" scenarios when talking about the ethical problems with torture, I'm pretty sure that you could show yourself to be equally able to conjure up scenarios where suicide is actually a valid option.

Didn't you watch Independence Day?

Do you think the old geezer will rot in hell because he used his airplane as a missile to bring down the alien ship?

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

Since you have shown yourself to be quite able to conjure up those "ticking timebomb" scenarios when talking about the ethical problems with torture, I'm pretty sure that you could show yourself to be equally able to conjure up scenarios where suicide is actually a valid option.

Didn't you watch Independence Day?

Do you think the old geezer will rot in hell because he used his airplane as a missile to bring down the alien ship?

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Negative. Jumping in front of a bullet to save someone's life is totally different. That was pretty much what he did, the alien ship was about to fire and blow everyone up.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Negative. Jumping in front of a bullet to save someone's life is totally different. That was pretty much what he did, the alien ship was about to fire and blow everyone up.

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It's still suicide, my dear ;)

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

It's still suicide, my dear ;)

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If you can spare the time, read my post on Page 2 in reply to him. It'll likely explain why he's not stating its suicide. I really am unsure of how to rectify this problem, because it results in a language barrier.

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

It's still suicide, my dear ;)

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Semantics. If you want to be deliberately obtuse feel free.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Negative. Jumping in front of a bullet to save someone's life is totally different. That was pretty much what he did, the alien ship was about to fire and blow everyone up.

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So what about [American] combat soldiers who deliberately put themselves in danger in the hopes of ending their lives?

It's pretty common [find someone with multiple commendations for valor, and it's a good bet you've found such a solider], and the military even screens for behaviors that might indicate a solider is just looking to get himself a clean battlefield death. How about you rip into those fighting men and condemn and judge them too? Or is this despicable behavior something you only do to dead faggots?

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

It is not specifically stated as "Don't kill yourself." However its pretty basic that God calls people to spread the good news, help others and give your life to God's service. Can't really do that when your dead.

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It's also clear that almost all sins are ultimately forgivable; a non-sin such as suicide should be especially forgivable.

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In addition God calls you to love your neighbor as yourself. Suicide is selfish because it does damage those around you. You're not loving your neighbor, you're not caring about your neighbor. You're making them suffer in order to end whatever perceived "unbearable suffering" that is going on.

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Based on this quote, people without neighbors to damage--and people who are evil--can commit suicide without it being selfish or sinful. It also means that a terminally ill person can do an act of good by committing suicide, sparing his loved ones prolonged pain and high medical costs. Moreover, this touches on your own hypocrisy in matters of sin wrt loving your neighbor!

Finally, think about unbearable suffering for a moment. By the same reasoning that makes suicide so sinful in Christianity, a person who commits suicide may make the right decision by killing himself so as to prevent his lifetime of truly unbearable suffering at the cost of his neighbors' few years of bearable suffering. If you do the math you'll find that it's a reasonable approach.

I'll agree with you on one thing. Committing suicide is a very selfish act. But committing a selfish act does not mean one should be condemned for it. Breaking up with your horrible girlfriend is a selfish act, would you condemn a person for doing that? Buying a donut is a selfish act, would you condemn donut-buyers? You engage in activities every single day that cause harm and suffering, are you going to go around berating yourself for that?

On one level I would find it despicable to be so self-centered as to whine about the suffering caused to me by a suffering person's suicide. I get it though--that whining is an understandable reaction. However, if you talk to friends and family you'll find that, once they've settled down, what'll cause them the most pain is the knowledge that their loved one was suffering so much and yet they were unable to help. It sucks to know that someone you love is in pain.

If you want to assign guilt for causing suffering you may as well assign it to those bullies who so successfully loved their neighbors to death :sour:

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Are you really suggesting that suicide is not immoral? I can't tell if your just being nit picky or if your actually trying to make a case that killing yourself is a OK.

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I don't think killing yourself is "OK", but I don't think it's immoral. I think it's tragic and very often preventable. My experiences have made me wary of condemning those who wish to end their lives. They usually need love, support and help. There is absolutely no room whatsoever for condemnation. I think it's truly despicable--even immoral--to condemn a suffering person and babble on about selfishness etc. I can't tell you how much I wish that you'd had a childhood more full of genuine love and understanding from your family and peers. I just hope you don't wait until your deathbed to see the light :(

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

So what about [American] combat soldiers who deliberately put themselves in danger in the hopes of ending their lives?

It's pretty common [find someone with multiple commendations for valor, and it's a good bet you've found such a solider], and the military even screens for behaviors that might indicate a solider is just looking to get himself a clean battlefield death. How about you rip into those fighting men and condemn and judge them too? Or is this despicable behavior something you only do to dead faggots?

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I can't believe what a sad little person you are. Suggesting that folks with commendations for valor are actually just trying to off themselves? Pathetic. I get you that you have issues with authority figures but that's about as low as Tear pretending to be in the military.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

I don't think killing yourself is "OK", but I don't think it's immoral. I think it's tragic and very often preventable. My experiences have made me wary of condemning those who wish to end their lives. They usually need love, support and help. There is absolutely no room whatsoever for condemnation.

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And if your attitude of "Suicide isn't really OK but its not you know its not so bad" catches on, do you think there will be more or less suicides?

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Nessus - not knowing you personally I couldn't say for sure but I really doubt you truly tried to kill yourself. Most attempted suicides are "cries for attention." Its incredibly easy to off yourself. A few minutes on Google can provide easy methods of near 100% chance of death.

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Given how many times I've personally offended you, this seems fair. For the sake of others reading the conversation, I will argue that I was committed to my goal and failed simply due to lack of skill. It was also almost 24 hours before I reached out for anyone and was very skeptical of "help" for several months, including avoiding any treatment that would infringe on personal freedom. You are free to no true scotsman what I did, but I contend it has little bearing on reality, let alone what I asked of you to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

In any event to answer your question - your past actions do not diminish your current actions. Just like a persons past good deeds don't excuse current evils a person may be committing. If you're a hero who saved 50 people's lives... your punishment should still be the same if you turn around and rape someone. Your suicide attempt should be vilified and if you admit that it was evil and have changed your ways then there is no reason why you couldn't be held up as a role model.

The biblical example of course is Paul. He murdered Christians before become an apostle. Does the murdering of Christians taint his later work? I don't believe so.

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I will not say what I did was evil, per se. Of course my idea of evil is radically divergent from yours anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter. I remember the last time I was flying to the UK, to pass the time I had picked up a yellow press rag. They had an article about a mother's grief after their son had killed themselves. It was very difficult for me to not openly weep after I saw that. I recognize that what I almost did would've ruined the lives of those who held me dear.

That said, I would contend that, assuming you yourself have not attempted suicide, I possess specialized knowledge in the field and am better able to gauge what it is these people go through. Especially the divide between selfishness and desperation.

Now, at this stage, both Minx and Loki will assault me as I am emotionally invested in the situation, that I am not able to objectively observe. That's fine. But you, Lewk, were never big on objectiveness. I am telling you, as a man to another, that you don't know. You haven't been there. I have. That seems to be rationale enough for you in other situations. I don't suppose that holds here. It is of little consequence, and at any rate I'm happy you answered my question :) So thanks for that.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

I can't believe what a sad little person you are. Suggesting that folks with commendations for valor are actually just trying to off themselves? Pathetic. I get you that you have issues with authority figures but that's about as low as Tear pretending to be in the military.

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Wow. I think that makes you the most clueless person 'round these parts, then.

Anyway, if you don't like my word for it, look it up, and/or find your own damned source. Then, once you've verified the authenticity of my statements, you can come back here and tell us about how a bunch of "war heroes" are evil, selfish men for wanting out of life, just like you did with this town's dead faggots.

Because that's what this is really about, isn't it? About suicide being evil and selfish (regardless of who's doing it), and not about you finding any excuse to hate you some faggots.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

And if your attitude of "Suicide isn't really OK but its not you know its not so bad" catches on, do you think there will be more or less suicides?

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If anything there would be less.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Semantics. If you want to be deliberately obtuse feel free.

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It's not semantics. It's the definition of the word: sui caedere - to kill oneself.

Does not make any mention of why or how you're killing yourself. Never heard of "suicide by cop"?

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The selfish little bastards

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Essentially the person who commits suicide is saying that their family and friends mean nothing to them. Those who do kill themselves should be vilified and mocked for what they did

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Even for you this is low.

I advice you to ask your spiritual adviser for some primers about what Jesus had to say about empathy.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

1. Suicide hurts those around you. Hurting others for selfish "gain" (in the suicide person's mine the end to suffering is their gain) is... wrong. If I wanted to rob a store to gain the benefit of money its a similar situation. I'm making others suffer in order for some type of gain. Even if your not Christian this type of selfish behavior is considered immoral by other religions and anyone who believes in any sort of moral code or system.

2. Suicide is typically a response to short term pain. These teenagers just had to get on with their lives, once high school is over things would be different for them.

3. Yes... I believe suicide is sinful based on my faith. Its not the only reason I think it should be vilified however. You thinking that poor people shouldn't starve to death in the street based on your moral belief is no different than my moral belief that suicide is bad. That being said I don't support having laws to jail people who try to commit suicide. I'm opposed to government interference. Personally though I think its wrong and I think people should openly claim it is wrong and create a stigma against that type of activity.

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Yeah, if only they could have talked to their teachers about that and been told that. Oh, wait..:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

It is not specifically stated as "Don't kill yourself." However its pretty basic that God calls people to spread the good news, help others and give your life to God's service. Can't really do that when your dead. In addition God calls you to love your neighbor as yourself. Suicide is selfish because it does damage those around you. You're not loving your neighbor, you're not caring about your neighbor. You're making them suffer in order to end whatever perceived "unbearable suffering" that is going on.

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You say that it is important to love your neighbor as yourself, but I have yet to see you say anything about the other students who made these kid's lives living hells. That is the second greatest commandment that they violated, and yet you are more keen to pass judgment on the children that were abused then the abusers themselves. Why not put these deaths into context, Lewk?

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

And if your attitude of "Suicide isn't really OK but its not you know its not so bad" catches on, do you think there will be more or less suicides?

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I didn't say suicide is "not so bad", I said it's not immoral and that there's no room for the kind of judgement you bring to the table. Your attitude does not help anyone; if anything, it hurts those who happen to be alive by making fun of them and making light of their pain. Have you ever spoken with a priest about these views you have?

Do you think there would be more or less suicides if more people shared your views on how to deal with mental health issues? Or, for that matter, your views on how to deal (or not) with any issue of social importance? :bulb:

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Suicide is obviously not as bad as rape and murder however it is an act of selfishness. Essentially the person who commits suicide is saying that their family and friends mean nothing to them.

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No, essentially he's saying that his family and friends ultimately meant less to him than ending his great and unbearable suffering. That is a statement about the magnitude of his suffering, and the perceived hopelessness of his situation--not about his total disregard for their friends and family. Come on man, you speak English, so what gives?

Was Illusions right? :confused:

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Those who do kill themselves should be vilified and mocked for what they did

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And what does the Bible have to say about this??

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They may be victims of bullying/assault/harassment but they aren't murder victims.

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No, they're far closer to being victims of torture.

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They killed themselves, no one "made" them do it.

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Hey Lewk, if you were ruthless and evil and wanted to make someone do something he doesn't want to do--eg. reveal Bin Laden's hideout, or stop talking back, or killing himself--how would you do it? This is not an abstract theoretical tangent; it's at the heart of this discussion.

PS. I hear many bullied kids who commit suicide are told by their tormentors that it would be best if they killed themselves :( I can't believe you're supporting such animals.

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2. Suicide is typically a response to short term pain.

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Wait, what?? :weird:

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

I can't believe what a sad little person you are. Suggesting that folks with commendations for valor are actually just trying to off themselves? Pathetic. I get you that you have issues with authority figures but that's about as low as Tear pretending to be in the military.

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Seriously? You're actually trying to deny that being in or having been in combat or combat zones isn't rife with triggers and stressors linked to suicidal ideation?

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

Seriously? You're actually trying to deny that being in or having been in combat or combat zones isn't rife with triggers and stressors linked to suicidal ideation?

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Please, this is Lewk we're talking to.

He'll deny anything as long as he thinks that his precious Bible didn't tell him about it, effectively shutting out anything we learned in the last 2,000 years. He's the poster boy of ignorance.

I find it a little confusing. Most priests etc. that I've met have been kind, decent and understanding. It's like their most ardent followers don't actually learn from their example or something

We have a pretty good number of the fire and brimstone type over here. :(

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Originally Posted by Aimless

I find it a little confusing. Most priests etc. that I've met have been kind, decent and understanding. It's like their most ardent American religious-right followers don't actually learn from their example or something

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Fixed that for ya.