Should those who don't work be able to afford booze and fags?

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Originally Posted by Illusions

Motion to change the thread title from:

Should those who don't work be able to afford booze and fags?

To:

Should those who don't work be able to afford booze and fags, but also how many absences from school is too many?

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I'll second the motion. :D



However, the thread about legalizing drugs could complicate things even further. We have a thriving black market for legal prescription drugs that students use to Ace tests and improve grades. Some will even take beta-blockers (to reduce heart rate) before oral exams. Kids trade ADHD prescribed drugs like candy, also pain killers, sleeping pills, muscle relaxants, anxiety meds, erectile dysfunction pills....the family medicine chest has replaced the liquor cabinet for finding a high.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

How is attendance outside of parents hands?

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You're really asking this?

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Are you telling me you never had or heard of a friend skipping a period, or day of class without the parents knowing? Many parents, especially low income parents, use the school's busing system. At best the parents know the student got on the bus. They don't know if the student went from the bus to his classroom, or if he stayed for all his classes.

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Exactly.

Anecdotal example; when we grew up as teenagers in Cyprus, most kids went to school on a school bus, including us. When one of my elder sisters was at that rebellious age, she would wave buh-bye to mum and dad in the morning, jump on the bus to school, get off the bus at the school gates, and catch a cab to the local pool and hang out there all day with friends. So far as mum and dad are concerned, she's in school. So far as the school are concerned, she's off sick.

Obviously if this occurs too often, the school will want to know why a pupil is absent so much, get in touch with the parents, and then the parents will find out what's been going on and perhaps exercise more control from that point forward (teacher's daily dated signature or similar).

If they want to, kids can get away with so much without parents/schools knowing.

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Don't have much time to get into this, but RB I'm surprised at your position. Most economists believe that artificially restrictive welfare is inefficient (e.g. food stamps and the like). People will naturally maximize their utility, so giving them the most fungible asset is best. Thus, direct cash transfers are the most efficient form of welfare.

That being said, there's obviously some flaws with this in the real world.

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The problem with that is the government isn't trying to maximize that individuals utitlity, it's trying to maximize a return on investment. I.E. help them get back on their feet and be employed, hence why you have to have conditions attached to the money

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

You're really asking this?



Exactly.

Anecdotal example; when we grew up as teenagers in Cyprus, most kids went to school on a school bus, including us. When one of my elder sisters was at that rebellious age, she would wave buh-bye to mum and dad in the morning, jump on the bus to school, get off the bus at the school gates, and catch a cab to the local pool and hang out there all day with friends. So far as mum and dad are concerned, she's in school. So far as the school are concerned, she's off sick.

Obviously if this occurs too often, the school will want to know why a pupil is absent so much, get in touch with the parents, and then the parents will find out what's been going on and perhaps exercise more control from that point forward (teacher's daily dated signature or similar).

If they want to, kids can get away with so much without parents/schools knowing.

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Ummm. I get a call from the school a soon as my kid is not there at the start of the day.

When I was in high school, my parents got a call as soon as I was not present in home room at the start of the day.

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

Ummm. I get a call from the school a soon as my kid is not there at the start of the day.

When I was in high school, my parents got a call as soon as I was not present in home room at the start of the day.

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Those have got to be small schools then, with extremely high attendance, and homeroom first thing in the morning (I haven't seen a school around here that puts homeroom first).

We will usually get our calls around 1030ish. For a school days that starts before 8. Of course we also have cellphones, myself a job that allows me to have my cellphone on me, and a wife who works from home.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Those have got to be small schools then, with extremely high attendance, and homeroom first thing in the morning (I haven't seen a school around here that puts homeroom first).

We will usually get our calls around 1030ish. For a school days that starts before 8. Of course we also have cellphones, myself a job that allows me to have my cellphone on me, and a wife who works from home.

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My high school operated the same way Veldan reports. We were the largest high school in California outside an inner city, over 3000 students and none of the school districts in my area have any "home room" organization. A teacher marked you down as an unexcused absence when you don't show up for their period and the first time it happened that day the central office started making robo-calls on the provided numbers until it got a pick-up.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

My high school operated the same way Veldan reports. We were the largest high school in California outside an inner city, over 3000 students and none of the school districts in my area have any "home room" organization. A teacher marked you down as an unexcused absence when you don't show up for their period and the first time it happened that day the central office started making robo-calls on the provided numbers until it got a pick-up.

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So one no show with a house phone without an answering machine would delay the entire list? Did each period have to process attendance this way, or was the days attendance based on one class? I'm assuming it's a high school where students switch teachers and locations between subjects.

Wow, this boggles my mind.

If I had a kid at a school that didn't track that my kid was not there...I'd be kinda irate.

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

Ummm. I get a call from the school a soon as my kid is not there at the start of the day.

When I was in high school, my parents got a call as soon as I was not present in home room at the start of the day.

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Over here that would probably happen if you were absent the entire day, if it's just one hour or so you'd usually just get detention, no parents involved. There could be any reason for missing one hour, aside from simply skipping it - oversleeping, bad weather or flat tire (a good portion of kids at my school, including me, went to school on their bikes, which was 6 miles one way), or simply becoming ill. Your parents have to call you in sick, or a doctor's note, but both are relatively easy to fake, and if you went home sick they would call your parents. But my parents, like many others, worked and were hard to reach during the day, so that wasn't very effective either. They did ask me to call in from home as soon as I got there, but after that there were no checks.

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

Wow, this boggles my mind.

If I had a kid at a school that didn't track that my kid was not there...I'd be kinda irate.

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Yet we have Loki posting in the WTF thread about schools tracking students :haha:
I'm not saying that schools don't record student attendance. They are required to for federal funding. But the level of which they can interact with parents depends on a lot of circumstances. Automated phone calls are 1 example (which they use here), but they don't do much good when the parent works in an environment that doesn't permit phone use, or if the call goes to an empty house (or one that the student returned to).

Flixy's post pretty much describes how high schools around here work. Only the official roll call would result in perhaps a robocall, skipping anything after (or before) that is pretty much under the radar (for at least a certain period of time).

Elementary schools are smaller, and can track attendance each time a student changes rooms/teachers. They're more concerned with safety and not skipping.

Once kids reach Middle School or HS, they're smart enough to know it's first period attendance that matters most. If parents haven't called in sick for the child, the robo-call chain starts. Some kids have faked their parents' voices to make those calls and skip the whole day. But it's pretty easy to skip certain classes. Where there's a will, there's a way.

It's not like there's a person in the Attendance Office checking attendance each period, or making call-backs all day long to verify absences with parents. And it's not as if every parent is connected to the school via text alerts, or monitors their kid by GPS or smart phone apps.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

So one no show with a house phone without an answering machine would delay the entire list?

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No.

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Did each period have to process attendance this way, or was the days attendance based on one class? I'm assuming it's a high school where students switch teachers and locations between subjects.

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Yeah, each period processed attendance. I think for state reporting issues you had to miss three or more periods on a day to qualify as absent in that respect but missing any period kicked off the phone notification process.

Have people never heard of email? Pretty sure most adults have it and check it fairly regularly.

How long ago was that, Fuzzy? Was it a computerized system?

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Originally Posted by Loki

Have people never heard of email? Pretty sure most adults have it and check it fairly regularly.

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Not all parents work behind a desk, or "check email" every hour.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

Yeah, each period processed attendance. I think for state reporting issues you had to miss three or more periods on a day to qualify as absent in that respect but missing any period kicked off the phone notification process.

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Thats a lot of processing then. 3000 students, 6-7 times a day? Thats never ending work for that poor robocalling machine. I assume you aren't much older than myself, where something like this would have been impossible without some sort of campus wide computer and networking setup. I still remember classroom runners to turn in attendance.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Have people never heard of email? Pretty sure most adults have it and check it fairly regularly.

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email is a much more generational tool than phones are, and I know a good number of middle class parents, much less lower income parents, that haven't grasped its purpose yet.

Not to mention that public record part of email communications for public schools.

On the school side Brent's engineering track this year is the first time we have that channel to communicate directly with the teacher, and to track how he does on his assignments (as well as what the assignments are).

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Originally Posted by GGT

How long ago was that, Fuzzy? Was it a computerized system?

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I finished high school in 2000. Yeah, it was computerized.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Thats a lot of processing then. 3000 students, 6-7 times a day? Thats never ending work for that poor robocalling machine.

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As I said, only the first unexcused absence of the day generated the robocall to the parents.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

I finished high school in 2000. Yeah, it was computerized.
As I said, only the first unexcused absence of the day generated the robocall to the parents.

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Those computers probably failed to reach the proper parents --- those working minimum wage jobs without hourly access to email or cell phones, whose kids were most at-risk for skipping classes --- and kids with highest need for educational opportunities.

Guys like Lewk would blame the parents, even though those parents are mostly working quite hard, often with two or three part-time jobs, just to make ends meet. Their goal is to shelter/feed/clothe....and educate.....their children. Utilizing our Public Education system for its intended purpose isn't mooching or freeloading. And it's not "takers vs makers".

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

As I said, only the first unexcused absence of the day generated the robocall to the parents.

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But the rolls still had to be processed. For every student, for every period.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Those computers probably failed to reach the proper parents --- those working minimum wage jobs without hourly access to email or cell phones, whose kids were most at-risk for skipping classes --- and kids with highest need for educational opportunities.

Guys like Lewk would blame the parents, even though those parents are mostly working quite hard, often with two or three part-time jobs, just to make ends meet. Their goal is to shelter/feed/clothe....and educate.....their children. Utilizing our Public Education system for its intended purpose isn't mooching or freeloading. And it's not "takers vs makers".

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I'm cool with you having a public school system but I'd love to give the poor folks a choice on where they send their kids to get an education. Vouchers help the poor and middle class get quality education, the rich get a quality education. Obama sends his kids to a quality private school. Why can't the poor get that option too? Oh yeah that's right, its because the Democrats are in bed with the teacher's union.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

unexcused absence

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What constitues excused?

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Originally Posted by Loki

Have people never heard of email? Pretty sure most adults have it and check it fairly regularly.

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Wasn't that common when I left high school, possibly they use it now for things like this. Doubt it though since you can't really know if you reached the parent, unlike a phone call that is answered, but not official like an actual letter.

BTW my parents aren't working minimum wage, nor poor, but don't carry cell phones simply because they don't like it. Both do have work phone numbers, but I'm pretty sure my school did not have those numbers. Plus my mum is on the golf course half of the time :p Anyway, they wouldn't even call if you just skipped one or two hours (I'm not even sure the administration would find out until late in/end of the day. Generally the dean would drop by the next day and give you detention. Then again, I did well academically so maybe they were stricter on those who weren't.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

What constitues excused?

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Usually a note from a parent stating the excuse. Doesn't have to be a great excuse either.

Yep, we are taking the kids to Disney/Universal at the end of the month for a week. They (the schools) are fine with it.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Usually a note from a parent stating the excuse.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Most other excuses aren't worth the paper they're written on.

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:p

Down here you have to phone it into the school's VM within the first hour of the day the student is absent. If you don't call in the school attempts to robocall you with a Press 1 option to excuse the absense.

They don't take notes. Kids have gotten to used to writing those.

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

Yep, we are taking the kids to Disney/Universal at the end of the month for a week. They (the schools) are fine with it.

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My school would not have been fine with that, unless there were specific circumstances (family/work related).

It varies by school. I remember someone tried that in my school and the teachers weren't very happy. They're generally fine with family vacations that require 1-2 absences.

Pfft. What are teachers gonna do? Call the cops and not allow you to go?

Flunk your kid for missing a week of class (not saying they necessarily should, but they could)? :noob:

Yeah, that would fly. A petulant response like that would not end very well for said teacher.

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

Yeah, that would fly. A petulant response like that would not end very well for said teacher.

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Any of the work assigned could be set so that if the school doesn't approve the vacation, the student wouldn't be allowed to make it up. Several days of Fs kinda suck. Thats about the only teeth random unexcused absences have down here.

Not that schools do that. They don't really like when parents pull their students out of school for vacation, but its not like they can stop it either way, so they generally try to work with parents. Supplying vacation homework and whatnot.