Income inequality in the US

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Apples and oranges. The fanciest car repairs require expert help (though said help doesn't require as much knowledge or training as an MD), but the vast majority of stuff can be done on your own with fairly basic tools. If you want to compare the fanciest and most expensive car repairs to routine medical treatment, you can, but that's extremely disingenuous.

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No, I'm comparing our vast amount of knowledge and self-help for our own bodies vs vehicles. Humans have many temporary ailments that are either self-limiting, or simple to treat. Colds, flus, headaches, sprains, nausea, diarrhea. OTC meds and devices.

No such thing for a car: if there's a problem, there's a problem. Chicken soup and rest won't change a damn thing for a car, they don't self-repair like humans. That's why mechanics charge at least $65/hour. They do earn that, though. Anyone who's gone to a physician to be told they have the flu, drink fluids and rest, and gets a $100 bill for that 15 minutes knows exactly what I'm saying.

Oh, whatever. You can replace tires, brakes, wipers, lights, filters, oil, etc. all on your own. Going to the doctor for a cold is as absurd as going to a mechanic to get your car washed or your gas topped up.

The point is that for most car repairs you can read a manual and figure it out. For most everyday body problems, you can wait things out with some basic meds. But the level of equipment an expertise needed to accurately diagnose and treat something really wrong with your body is miles beyond that of your car. Worse comes to worst, you can buy a new car.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Oh, whatever. You can replace tires, ... etc. all on your own.

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You can? How do you get the old tire off the rim and put the new one back on the rim...without taking it to a shop?

True *wiggin*. But you started this out by saying 4 year degrees aren't always necessary. I agree with that. When you mentioned a wage premium, I brought in the car analogy. And yes, mechanics earn their $65/hour. Even from people who only earn $10/hour.

Have you really replaced your brake pads, shoes, calipers? Adjusted your clutch and all the gear timing, replaced an O2 sensor or catalytic converter? Most people can't do these things.


We can buy otoscopes and sphygmomanometers at a Walgreen's. We can buy lancets, glucometers, and insulin. We can even buy insulin pumps. Some things require a physician order. Would be nice if we could buy a quick-strep test at Walgreen's, and take the results to the pharmacist to get Ampicillin, especially for kids who get strep throat. But we've had so much over-prescribing that strep is mutating and becoming immune to PCN. So we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. And we end up hauling kids to the pediatrician after 3 days of fever and swollen throats or ear aches. Paying the $100/15 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Being

You can? How do you get the old tire off the rim and put the new one back on the rim...without taking it to a shop?

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All you need is a tire spreader. The real problem is that you need the lugnuts tightened by more than just hand, which you can normally swing by a shop to get done for cheap/free if you don't have the equipment.

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Originally Posted by GGT

True *wiggin*. But you started this out by saying 4 year degrees aren't always necessary. I agree with that. When you mentioned a wage premium, I brought in the car analogy. And yes, mechanics earn their $65/hour. Even from people who only earn $10/hour.

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My wife is straight out of college and her billables are way more than $65/hour ($150ish?).

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Have you really replaced your brake pads, shoes, calipers? Adjusted your clutch and all the gear timing, replaced an O2 sensor or catalytic converter? Most people can't do these things.

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No, but that's because my time is more valuable than the mechanic's. Most of that stuff is pretty easy to do if you have time, and you'll save a lot of money. Detailed instructions for most repairs are readily available on the internet, and anything not involving really expensive equipment (i.e. expert work that's not the majority of car repairs) isn't that difficult.


I don't even get where you're going any more. All I'm saying is that most fancy degrees that pay you a lot of money do so because the degree actually is worth something, rather than just an imaginary sense that a degree is necessary.

Spoken like a true engineer. :p I'd argue the same for most non-technical fields as well. The ability to think analytically, write tell, and give good presentations are necessary for almost all important business positions. Anyone who pays attention in college will be better at those skills than someone who does not. Even someone who goes into college with a good level of those skills should improve by the time they leave.

It's sad that those skills aren't taught when they're in high school, though, it's not such a big deal and 20-somethings living with their parents are just embarrassing

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Originally Posted by wiggin

I don't even get where you're going any more. All I'm saying is that most fancy degrees that pay you a lot of money do so because the degree actually is worth something, rather than just an imaginary sense that a degree is necessary.

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I was saying not everyone needs a fancy degree that "pays a lot of money". Those degrees may not be as valuable, in the end, as a steady well-paying job like an auto mechanic. And $65/hr is nothing to sneeze at. Also, not to sound too snobby that right out of college your wife bills way more ($150ish). The time will come when you'll pay for a great auto mechanic or a great plumber.

:donkey:

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Originally Posted by Nessus

It's sad that those skills aren't taught when they're in high school, though, it's not such a big deal and 20-somethings living with their parents are just embarrassing

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They're taught better in some schools than in others. But you're right: on average, the quality of secondary education in the US abysmal. Having said that, you should improve at each of those skills in college even if you had a good secondary education.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

All you need is a tire spreader. The real problem is that you need the lugnuts tightened by more than just hand, which you can normally swing by a shop to get done for cheap/free if you don't have the equipment.

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You've never taken a tire off the rim, have you? And you've obviously never tightened the lugnuts either since you swing by a shop to have it done.

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Originally Posted by GGT

I was saying not everyone needs a fancy degree that "pays a lot of money". Those degrees may not be as valuable, in the end, as a steady well-paying job like an auto mechanic. And $65/hr is nothing to sneeze at. Also, not to sound too snobby that right out of college your wife bills way more ($150ish). The time will come when you'll pay for a great auto mechanic or a great plumber.

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Obviously there is a place for the plumbers and mechanics of the world - my old roommate is an electrician and sometimes plumber who will (eventually) do quite well for himself - mostly, he's spending something like 7-8 years living like a pauper getting his credentials working for someone else in order to set up his own business and do decently for himself. Hmm, sounds kinda like school now, doesn't it? He's making his labor much more valuable by the expertise he gains by, essentially, apprenticing himself.

Either way, there are no free lunches. People pay more for expertise, skills, and knowledge. One way to get this is through a post-high school degree or two (or three). It's not the only way, but it's a pretty good one for many professions. And on average the wage premium is quite high compared to just a HS education. It's not being snobby to say that, it's just reality.

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Originally Posted by Being

You've never taken a tire off the rim, have you? And you've obviously never tightened the lugnuts either since you swing by a shop to have it done.

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Wrong on both counts. But I've come to expect that.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Wrong on both counts. But I've come to expect that.

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And according to you it's easier to remove a tire from its rim than to tighten lugnuts. :haha:

wiggin, it's the way you refer to apprentices (living like paupers) that sounds snobby. Master Electricians, Master Plumbers, Master Carpenters are worth their weight in gold. No person with a fancy degree (or two, or three) can conduct business without these professional tradesmen creating their environment first.

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Originally Posted by Being

And according to you it's easier to remove a tire from its rim than to tighten lugnuts. :haha:

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The equipment needed for tightening lugnuts is more expensive than a tire spreader. I didn't say it was 'easier' - obviously just tightening the lugnuts with a wrench is easy in that it doesn't take time, but hand-tight isn't particularly tight. Regardless, this is stupid. Believe what you want, the basic point about car care vs. healthcare is fairly obvious.

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Originally Posted by GGT

wiggin, it's the way you refer to apprentices (living like paupers) that sounds snobby. Master Electricians, Master Plumbers, Master Carpenters are worth their weight in gold. No person with a fancy degree (or two, or three) can conduct business without these professional tradesmen creating their environment first.

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Of course they're important. But the reality is that to become a 'master' electrician/plumber/carpenter, you need to spend a lot of time working for someone else. The pay is hardly good, and you have to memorize a ridiculously large book full of code. It's school, with a certification at the end of the tunnel. Once you have it, you can strike out on your own and charge that premium you're talking about.

I'm not being snobby - I'm living like a pauper for 10 years so that I can have a BS and a PhD at the end of it. It's reality - you spend some of your potentially productive years learning for either no or little pay in exchange for an education and better earnings potential in the future.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

The equipment needed for tightening lugnuts is more expensive than a tire spreader. I didn't say it was 'easier' - obviously just tightening the lugnuts with a wrench is easy in that it doesn't take time, but hand-tight isn't particularly tight.

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I'm not even going to comment this time, I'm too busy laughing...:haha:

You never need to spend more than a couple hundred dollars on a tire spreader (unless you have some really weird wheels), but a good torque wrench set can set you back quite a bit more. Obviously you can get a POS of either for like $30 but that's not really the point.

Anyways, this is so far afield it's not important. The real difference between the two is time, which is irrelevant to whether a DIYer can manage it. This is the last I'm going to say on this particular topic - it's a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

- it's a waste of time.

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As opposed to the rest of the forum?

Yes, Being gets his own category.