Oh yes, and as an extension related to this "debate"....it sounds familiar to requiring a National ID.
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Oh yes, and as an extension related to this "debate"....it sounds familiar to requiring a National ID.
Umm, GGT, it's not like I am some alien. You need photo ID to drive, not just when you are pulled over. And if you ever buy a drink.
Not to mention flying, entering government buildings and doing tons of other stuff. Which is why it's so strange that our government requires photo ID to physically enter the premises but not to vote-in that government.
May I ask how much it costs to get an ID in the US?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
both of these claims are bullshit.Quote:
entering government buildings
Yes, its up to the supplier to verify that the purchaser is over the minimum age but requesting ID is not required. Publix's sign even state this, if you're under 35, you have to supply ID, to protect their asses.
I have also never had to present ID when entering a government building. I do it all the time for the county building, and I just did it the other day for the courts.
The county government building doesn't even have a metal detector or any sort of entrance protection. The court building had a metal detector, but no request for ID.
You would need the supplemental paperwork, such as a birth certificate, which varies greatly from state to state, then you would need the ID, those prices also vary (see second post for how states are handling this).Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
The only real number I saw was $28 but that's for voters ID. My question is more what is the range (cheapest state to most expensive state) for an normal photo ID and how long is it valid.
valid dates also vary. I get quite a few partons from Arizona cause their IDs last for (almost) fucking forever. Mine lasts 6 years.
6 years sounds reasonable to me.
which means having to purchase one for possibly every 2 out of 3 presidental elections.Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
not to mention the high mobility rate of the poor, with states requiring a local ID for services.
You need photo ID on you to drive?Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
I don't need anything on me to drive.
Driving without a driver's license is illegal, and we all know people who break the law should be thrown in jail.
I don't need to carry my license with me to drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flixy
Yes, you need it on you to drive.
Also, to buy cold medicine, at least in Georgia.
and target asks me to swipe mine when I buy video games.
The difference is between whats requires an ID by law, when businesses use ID because its the easiest way to stay on the right side of the law, and which are completely voluntary.
Around here, driving without your license on you is a $25 fine (or used to be), and an incredibly long traffic stop as they run all the car information to find your information.
Well, when business ask for ID because they are required to by law I don't think its voluntary, even though I can choose to buy a decongestant without pseudoephedrine.
Thats what I was addressing earlier with Dread. I don't know all the laws, for all the states, but some of the instances that people think "its required" are false. Its simply how that business is run. I wonder, when the last time was Munchin got carded?Quote:
Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
EDIT: found the states that require ID for Pseudoephedrine.
I don't think the differences between states are being addressed here much at all.
Heh, back to voting - while you have to show one of several types of photo ID to vote in person, you don't have to show ID to vote absentee.
Well I suppose it's a matter of minutes to get a new one with a valid old one. At least here it's like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Now that doesn't sound reasonable to me.Quote:
not to mention the high mobility rate of the poor, with states requiring a local ID for services.
Well if this is really true for the UK, never do that abroad. Driver licence and car licence should always be at hand while driving.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Never knew that. Even when stopped by the Police (as has coincidentally been discussed in another thread), I have never once been asked for my licence. If you get stopped here and ticketed for doing something wrong and they ask for your licence, you have 7 days to present it at court.Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
What happens if you lose it? Physically. Can you not drive until you have it replaced?
I've lost my wallet with my licence in and not bothered to get it replaced yet.
You can get a temporary copy from the desk at your local administration. Also it's not like you will be put in jail. But I think they can charge you for the extra administration work if you don't have your driver licence with you.
Ironically, left-wingers claim that voter ID laws magically make left-wingers stop voting. Yet it's left-wing votes supporting out-of-control state government unions which arguably make getting a photo ID more expensive and complicated.
Wait, what? I realise criticizing unions makes you tingly but this is a bit of a stretch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
no counter argument or proof, just more bullshit :rolleyes: 100% D&D approved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
I have to admit I didn't know that people's responses to increased costs amounted to "magic", I thought it was as close to a natural law you could find in Dread's world :noob: Dread, you do realise that costs affect behaviour right? Magic doesn't come into it.
Going back to the original post, I find it curious how requiring voter ID is portrayed as a conspiracy to get left-wingers to vote less. The kinds of editorial in the OP tend to go on to make vague claims about how hard it can be to get photo ID.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
The irony is any enhanced difficulties/costs getting photo ID are enhanced by left-wing votes which keep state unions in power, which in turn inhibit the efficient delivery of government services. This is why Americans joke about their driver ID/licensing organizations so much (known here as the DMV). They are widely perceived as exemplars of inefficient government. In many states, re-structuring DMVs has taken years, partially because of collective bargaining agreements that make structural reforms difficult for any government agency.
Well why can't you guys arrive at solutions along the lines of Holland's, or Switzerland's, or Sweden's?
Or, for that matter, something similar to those American states that don't require voter photo IDs?
except those claims are backed in research and fact (as already provided), and yet you have provided nothing of the sort as a response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
Not seen any research or fact yet.
In the same vein I'd like to see just how big the problem of voter fraud is in the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Of similar note, Aimless' question is also answered. 24 cases of fraud between 2002-2005. Although no state is willing to publish their own numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
But if you think about it this voter tax is a pretty clever scheme :noob:
I thought the challenge in Wisconsin was interesting: according to one group, the voter photo ID law is unconstitutional at present because Wisconsin's constitution specifically permits lawmakers to restrict voting rights for twi groups, namely prisoners and the mentally incompetent. There is no mention of a third group, "people who don't have photo ID".
This is interesting:
http://www.thesunnews.com/2011/07/18...or-couple.html
I gotta say, it almost makes the US seem more charming :) even though it's a little unfortunate :(
The money angle:
http://brennan.3cdn.net/2f0860fb73fd..._zzm6bhnld.pdf
For the incredulous Dread:
http://www.brennancenter.org/content...stands_strong/
Advocacy group of course.
Oh, I wish. Going to the Department of Motor Vehicles is like a punishment. I swear, they must have the crankiest, meanest people working there. I'm sure their employment application asks, "Are you able to be in a bad mood 24/7, and talk to people like they are horrible children?" It seems it's always an hour wait or more for the littlest thing. I've taken to using their internet services when I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
In my state you renew a license every 5 years; you're allowed to renew it once over the net (or at least it was last time I renewed). It also used to be $12 but I'm unsure if they've upped the price now that the license designs changed recently.
EDIT: It's $4 a year now; that's a weird way of putting it. ID cards are $10 but the website doesn't say how long they are good for?
This is why its so hard to have an honest debate with you. You use these negative vivids all the time for shit you don't agree with or understand. Insane, conspiracy, magic. All this shit that mentally puts you in a superior position, but has no place in the debate. Real world information be damned. This process of yours, most recently seen here and in the protest thread only makes it harder for you to understand the world outside your own reach. To change your mind, or possibly agree to disagree on/in a serious manner, would degrade yourself into the lower position that you put the opposition in before the debate even starts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
I know, I could (and likely should) have put this in the thread you made about a having a more serious debate section. Since this type of behavior is extremely childish, but not directly insultive, and using your previous history on such matters, not something you seem fully capable of controlling/policing. Its only here cause this is the page I was on at the moment.
I don't understand the whole DMV debacle, even The Simpsons jokes about it.
Our equivalent, the DVLA, is based in Swansea. When I got my original licence I had to post my documents to them, they posted my licence back. Now it can be done online.
:up: Asked a few times now, with no answer. Solving a problem that doesn't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Saying this is about voter fraud is a complete strawman. The goal is to inject some rationality into our voting process, which at the state level is often a mess. The kinds of systems used to verify eligibility to vote are arcane and silly for a developed country. And the limitations of these systems is an invitation for potential voter fraud (which, incidentally, is difficult to spot because the voting systems can be so weird).
In New York, I can just waltz into a polling station, give my name and address and vote. The only verification is maybe a scan of a signature used when I registered to vote, which itself doesn't look like much. The voter rolls are never validated or purged. So I can also walk into a polling station where I grew up, use my dad's name and do the same thing. Or if my neighbor dies, I can use his name and address. It's silly, and an obvious opening to problems (either accidental or malicious).
Not to mention this dysfunction trickles-down to tallying and verification of votes. In the US we've had a number of very close and difficult elections that revolved around difficult vote counts, which left people feeling uncertain their votes were counted (Florida 2000, Minnesota 2008, Wisconsin 2011).
What aggravates me is the people who complain that getting a photo ID is a burden don't look at why it's a burden, but instead fabricate some kind of injustice that would be visited on people if our voting system revolved around more reliable and regulated ID.
You say that but then you sayQuote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
and follow it up withQuote:
And the limitations of these systems is an invitation for potential voter fraud (which, incidentally, is difficult to spot because the voting systems can be so weird).
for examples of the fraud and and end withQuote:
In New York, I can just waltz into a polling station, give my name and address and vote. The only verification is maybe a scan of a signature used when I registered to vote, which itself doesn't look like much. The voter rolls are never validated or purged. So I can also walk into a polling station where I grew up, use my dad's name and do the same thing. Or if my neighbor dies, I can use his name and address. It's silly, and an obvious opening to problems (either accidental or malicious).
historical problems which were either fraud themselves or which are things which a photo id does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT. So explain to me again how saying this is about voter fraud is some kind of straw man? Because if it is, then you're hitting poor Thatch an awful lot.Quote:
Not to mention this dysfunction trickles-down to tallying and verification of votes. In the US we've had a number of very close and difficult elections that revolved around difficult vote counts, which left people feeling uncertain their votes were counted (Florida 2000, Minnesota 2008, Wisconsin 2011).
I would say that we should be preventing fraud and the biggest part of the problem is that we under the current system can have very little idea just how much fraud is going on. Its so easy to commit fraud, so difficult to detect, that we simply won't know how much is happening. Given what extremes some people will go to and how passionately partisan many are, I think having a system wide open to abuse is frankly insane.
Good point. The issue to be addressing is making it easier to get ID, not simply not requiring it. The main complaint seems to be how difficult it is to get ID, but ID is required for so many walks of life (getting a driving licence, opening a bank account etc) that why should it be so difficult? Why are we only now worried about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
Because we don't really see, hear or much care about the elderly, the disabled, the money-less, etc :cry: we do however care about politics, formalia, scoring points and other things more relevant to our cushy existence :-D