That worked well with Brexit.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
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That worked well with Brexit.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
Oh. Right. The Brits have been kicking and screaming for decades, for longer than the Spanish have had their constitution and decentralized regional autonomies, and you think Brexit counts as a vote held early?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
They actually did have a previous vote, but the problem with Brexit wasn't just a groundswell of anti-EU feelings. It was that a series of governments over 3 decades falsely claimed EU responsibility for homespun problems. It's remarkable how other EU members don't have the problems that Brexit is supposed to solve. They're going to miss that scapegoat after they re out.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
Just for laughs you should follow British coverage of Brexit; on both sides of their debate they still manage to act as if it's all the mistake of 'Brussels'. Brexiteers telling after a pretty smart 'State of the Union' (I'm not going into the text itself but it is a strategic position paper) howl about how right they were to leave, and Remainers moan about their task not being made easier. As if we care any longer how our choices affect their internal politics.
The court ordered them to send armed cops into newspapers did it? And that makes it OK in your eyes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
So if the federal courts in America said a vote authorised by the New York State congress was not valid then you'd be perfectly OK with armed cops raiding the New York Times?
British newspapers are interested in how things affect Britain? Oh the horror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
That's their job, to report on how things affect their audience not what obnoxious muppets like you care about.
No matey, what's funny is that you lot think we would or should care.
Catalan ministers now being arrested.
No doubt Loki will continue to be in denial that this is oppressive. If our government ordered the arrest of Nicola Sturgeon we'd be ostracised and quite rightly.
With one day left to go we have oppression reminiscent of Franco occurring across Spain. Well done to the Catalans brave enough to stand up to such oppression, nobody has a right to deny the people their voice.
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If this poll is right then an absolute majority could vote for independence. http://www.thenational.scot/news/155..._Catalan_poll/
Hardly a surprise, I had no strong view either way a few weeks ago but am so disgusted at the oppression occurring on our doorstep that I now hope it gets stood up against. Spain really isn't trying to 'win friends and influence people' here but repression is no way to treat what you supposedly want to be your people.
In the 21st century the people not the state are the ones who get to decide. Anyone who tries to subjugate the people is a dictator that should be opposed.
For once I agree with Julian Assange, this is impressive and the Spanish state has no ability let alone right to stop the people from turning out.
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The IQ of a crowd is usually equal to the IQ of the stupidest member, divided by the number of people in said crowd.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Seriously, Rand, there's no such thing as "people are wise". Because if there was we wouldn't have had Goebbels, Mussolini or Trump.
Please provide scientific evidence for that ridiculous claim because evidence disagrees with you. Evidence is that crowds are wiser than any individual let alone the stupidest member.
People are not perfect even if they are wise but they're still wiser than trusting without checks any individual who could just as easily be a Goebbels, Mussolini or Trump.
There's a reason why the likes of Goebbels were not keen on keeping free and fair democracy.
If you find yourself in agreement with Assange, that's a good reason to rethink your position.
If you find yourself in agreement with General Franco, that's a good reason to rethink yours.
Utter, utter morons. After today I think Catalonia will go independent. Dictatorships fall. Spain can't stomp on people forever not and try and pretend to be a free nation and their actions today have taken two guns and shot themselves directly in both feet, support for independence will surge now. Or do you think that Police grabbing and dragging old people who want to vote is a fantastic idea?
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Playing right into the hands of the separatists. Sad.
Rubber bullets being fired at people who are wanting to vote.
The criminal scum deserve to be shot at clearly.
This Police brutality on innocent people who just want to vote is like something from Venezuela not 21st century Europe. We have videos now of Spanish Police attacking voters, voters bleeding on the floor.
Come on Loki where are your principles? Do you only care about Police brutality when it isn't state sanctioned?
Anti-referendum protesters are literally chanting Franco-era chants. I have no doubt Russia was very active in Spain in the run-up to this referendum.
Whether you support the referendum or not I hope everybody here agrees that the government/police response is insane, very troubling.
Unless of course you're one of the people here who are fine with violence against protesters since they are blocking roads :rolleyes:
Going after voters is overkill; going after political officials is not. Will this backfire? Probably. Did Spain have another choice? Not really.
Of course Spain had another choice!
They could have done precisely what they did last time and say the referendum was meaningless and to be boycotted and ignored.
Never attack the voters!
Who here Flixy is OK with violence for protestors blocking roads?
It was advisory last time. The Catalans would have declared independence the day after this vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
About what I expected. A pretense at high-mindedness by saying it's terribly unfortunate, followed by insisting they had it coming for trying to cast a vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Nope. One could say an action was inevitable while condemning the action (just wait until everyone plays their hand in Iraqi Kurdistan).Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
So how does it feel backing a referendum that was quite likely to lead to violence? Are you all going to pretend the violence was unforeseeable? Or that the moral case for a policy should be unconcerned with likely costs?
How does it feel to be Rand clones, basing your views on the absolute best-case scenario and then moving the goalposts when that outcome failed to materialize?
Haven't been following this very closely but I've got two thoughts.
1. The population has an obligation to obey the law, only in the case of a call for outright revolution is violence an acceptable tactic. Most would agree the American Revolution was a justified act, is a Catalonia revolution in the same boat? No clue but this might be the narrow set of circumstances I'm OK with violence on the part of the mob.
2. Police should respond violently if crowds become violent. However a lot of the footage (and again I'm fairly ignorant of the issues going on here) seems to be the police randomly beating people. Like what the fuck, arrest them if they are breaking the law - they don't seem to be resisting so why are you wailing on them with batons? /boggle Spain looks incompetent and totalitarian with the way the response has occurred.
If engaging in democracy is likely to lead to violence, the problem is on the institutions being voted against. Use of force in suppression of democracy, even "illegal" democracy, is unconscionable. The proper response is political and court action, not action at the end of a police baton. You remember my stance back during the Bundy Ranch stand-off? Let the acts go for now and go after them later, when it doesn't pose a risk of violence. Which is what the federal government did, and what the Spanish government ought to have done. You keep saying "if a referendum happens then Catalonia is instantly independent." That's not how reality works and you know it. More than one area in the US has voted to secede since the Civil War. Do you think voting for it actually made them independent?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
In a liberal democracy it is not the people's job to restrain themselves to avoid giving their government an excuse to use violence against them. It is the government's job to safeguard them from violence, not to be the source of the threat. You're somehow able to recognize this in the BLM thread but the instant someone is taking a policy stance you don't like that recognition goes right out the window.Quote:
Are you all going to pretend the violence was unforeseeable? Or that the moral case for a policy should be unconcerned with likely costs?
So you say that the Catalans have no right to declare independence and you don't recognise it, you don't beat up voters!Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Violence has only come about from the oppressors* side as far as I can see and the people standing up peacefully to the oppression and Police batons (many of whom have personally survived dictatorships like General Franco) are not the ones to be blamed. Blame lies purely and solely with the ones using unjustifiable violence against a peaceful and civil democratic exercise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
* If the use of that word was debatable before today it no longer is.
If they didn't want to get beaten they shouldn't have been exercising democracy in the polling booth. They were practically asking for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
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Great referendum. From the people who went to the polls, 101% (literally) voted. From that 101%, 90% apparently voted yes. On a turnout of 42% despite the images shown on TV. This is about as credible as the Crimean election. So not only law-breakers, but also fraudsters.
What should be is irrelevant. The result was entirely foreseeable. I said the likely costs of having this referendum were going to be far higher than the benefits (which are minimal). We know this is just the start. You refuse to weigh reality in your calculations.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
Incidentally, most of the violence was in ~4 polling stations in central Barcelona where the police didn't have the numbers to stave off the mob (terrible planning by the Spanish government). And yes, the police overreacted. Something the Spanish police is known for doing. There's footage floating around that was supposedly from today but was actually from some strike a few years back.
Everyone comparing this to Franco really needs to read about Franco.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
It's almost impossible to imagine why the turnout wasn't higher...Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
In case you missed the point, there's no way in hell the turnout was that high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch the Red
I'm sure the vote was rife with irregularities. That's what happens when ballots have to be secreted away from the police, polling stations get raided, people get beaten, and voting is forced underground. How can any type of transparency be expected, or results validated in that kind of chaos?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
And somehow that justifies ballot stuffing? Great democracy the Catalans are fighting for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch the Red
Do you have a specific problem with Catalan/Spain or do you just in general dislike these type of independence movements?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I have no bone in that fight. Yes, I'm not a fan of secessionist movements in all but the most extreme situations. When you're one of the richest regions in your country, your argument about being oppressed doesn't hold much water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
Bollocks to that, you can't complain about irregularities when you've done everything to bully, destroy and intimidate the vote. The ones acting undemocratically here are clear and its not the Catalans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
They're only foreseeable if Spain isn't democratic and if Spain isn't democratic the Catalans deserve their freedom. QED.Quote:
What should be is irrelevant. The result was entirely foreseeable. I said the likely costs of having this referendum were going to be far higher than the benefits (which are minimal). We know this is just the start. You refuse to weigh reality in your calculations.
Ah so they should have expected to be beaten up as they've been beaten up before? That makes it all better!Quote:
Incidentally, most of the violence was in ~4 polling stations in central Barcelona where the police didn't have the numbers to stave off the mob (terrible planning by the Spanish government). And yes, the police overreacted. Something the Spanish police is known for doing. There's footage floating around that was supposedly from today but was actually from some strike a few years back.
That's like suggesting that if a peaceful BLM protestor gets shot by a Police officer in America that its entirely to be expected and is the fault of the BLM movement for organising the protest as they should have expected the Police to turn violent in response.
It will be interesting to see where this goes. On the one hand you have the right of self determination. On the other side you have constitutional considerations that need to be taken serious as well. A Catalunya that, disregarding the Spanish Constitution simply declares independence can not expect to immediately have much credibility as a partner in international politics.
Funny how Spain puts constitutional considerations and sovereignty so seriously when it suits itself yet continues to demand Gibraltar where the constitutional and sovereign position is crystal clear that it is no more Spanish than Portugal is.
Spain also holds a number of exclaves in Morocco, over the objections of Morocco, despite the Spanish position over Gibraltar being that territory integrity trumps the right to self-determination. So there's that.
Very good point.
Can't confirm this yet, bit reports of there being no voter registry, no attempt to stop multiple-voting, especially in rural areas that exhibited a turnout of over 100%, and no neutral observers around during the counting. These issues predate the government crackdown.