Brexit Begins

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aimless

In further shocking news, Khen isn't the EU.

---

Now, that's just mean. And a shocking blow to my ego which is so large it just applied for statehood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

Now, that's just mean. And a shocking blow to my ego which is so large it just applied for statehood.

---

Vetoed; you have to make more progress on human rights and also do something about your blood pressure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aimless

*shrug* as usual you're mostly mistaken about what other people say and believe, and I'm beginning to think you've lost the ability to distinguish between individual posters on this forum. My commentary has been based on my interpretation of what I've read about the subjects this debate has touched on. If that happens to have closely matched Hazir's statements then it largely reflects our commonality of sources and reasoning.

---

Did your sources suddenly change after the UK voted to leave? Seems unlikely. Your reasoning may have. In fact I think it did. You became a lot more hardline almost overnight. So did much of the EU. That is, in fact, a bog-standard human response to apostasy. Britain voting to leave drove you (and a whole bunch of others) over toward Hazir's long-standing positions. You say you are not the EU, Hazir is not, etc. But you are. The EU is a representative-democracy (albeit in a rather unusual form) vehicle for governance. The people are the EU. Public opinion is in large part the opinion of the EU and certainly informs and drives its decision-making, even with the representative-created distance.

I think Fuzzy should take up a thesaurus and have a look at what "apostasy" actually means.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

I think Fuzzy should take up a thesaurus and have a look at what "apostasy" actually means.

---

I think Khend should take up a dictionary and have a look at what "thesaurus" actually means.

Sorry, it was too good to pass up.

I think Enoch should get himself an encyclopedia and look up what a dictionary is.

I mean, it's a pretty interesting topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

Did your sources suddenly change after the UK voted to leave? Seems unlikely. Your reasoning may have. In fact I think it did. You became a lot more hardline almost overnight. So did much of the EU. That is, in fact, a bog-standard human response to apostasy. Britain voting to leave drove you (and a whole bunch of others) over toward Hazir's long-standing positions. You say you are not the EU, Hazir is not, etc. But you are. The EU is a representative-democracy (albeit in a rather unusual form) vehicle for governance. The people are the EU. Public opinion is in large part the opinion of the EU and certainly informs and drives its decision-making, even with the representative-created distance.

---

Or, and that would be the simplest explanation; the UK vote for Brexit made people think - for real - about the veracity of the claims of what we used to call 'euro-sceptics'.

As long as Brexit wasn't real I was just a lone 'fanatic'. Now it seems like , except for lack of politesse, I no longer hold very off-center opinions. I am under no illusions that it was me who won the debate. What won the debate was the hard light of reality on the fantasies of the opposing side.

FYI; I am not the EU. But I based my opinions on it not on some fantasy about it but rather on what it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steely Glint

I think Enoch should get himself an encyclopedia and look up what a dictionary is.

I mean, it's a pretty interesting topic.

---

I'll start a thread immediately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

I think Fuzzy should take up a thesaurus and have a look at what "apostasy" actually means.

---

The renunciation or abandonment of a religious or political belief.

In this case, the commitment that the path to progress is an "ever closer union" of pan-European integration.

Precisely. It's become abundantly clear that the key thing for the integrationists is Faith. The referendum campaign here provided very little positive arguments for remaining in the EU and just a lot of Faith that leaving would be bad. Even look at the word that's used to insult those who don't agree with everything the EU does: Sceptic.

Apostasy is the perfect word. But I don't view apostasy or scepticism as a bad thing, I'm an atheist and I've always believed in science and logic rather than faith.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandBlade

I'm an atheist and I've always believed in science and logic rather than faith.

---

Are you suggesting that those that voted to remain didn't base their decision on science and logic?

I'd argue there was significantly more "faith" involved in the leave vote - because nobody actually knew (and we still don't) what Brexit actually looks like. We were told not to worry, leaving would be easy, and trust that everything will work out fine. Leave voted for hypotheticals.

Whereas the vast majority of experts (who we're now told we're tierd of by the likes of Gove) voted to remain based on the overwhelming evidence that it's been, and will continue to be positive for us.

You forget again that the full quote from Gove was not "experts", that is as Wikiquotes puts it a "misquote".

Quote:

---

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove
Misquotes

• I think people in this country have had enough of experts.
  
  • 6 June 2016, in interview with Faisal Islam. Gove's actual quote was: "I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying - from organisations with acronyms - saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong, because these people - these people - are the same ones who got consistently wrong." The shortened quote was reported due to Islam interrupting Gove while he was speaking [1] but Gove had no intention of ending the sentence there.
  
  

---

Gove even continued his line while Faisal Islam was rudely shouting over him.

I'm confused why this is seen as a misquote. Yes, Gove goes onto explain that it's experts from organisations from acronyms - but isn't that most organisations and thus most experts?

Seems like the weakest "misquote" I've ever seen.

And your video kind proved my point. Gove was unable to provide any evidence as to why being in the EU was bad for the British public. Therefore he resorts to very clever lines like "I'm on the side of the British people, not the elitists". Or in other words - have faith.

You cut off the part where he says "saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong" etc, not just experts, not just experts from organisations with acronyms, but ones who get it consistently wrong.

Why? He goes on to say while Islam continues to shout over him "because these people - these people - are the same ones who got consistently wrong".

I don't see it as a misquote though. Sure, he goes on to provide some rationale to his nonsense, but ultimately the message is exactly the same: people have had enough of experts.

No the message is that people have had enough of those who get things consistently wrong.

So have faith in us instead!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gogobongopop

So have faith in us instead!

---

People are sick of experts whom they think consistently get everything wrong and want "experts" who can give positive upbeat messages, being correct not required.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

The renunciation or abandonment of a religious or political belief.

In this case, the commitment that the path to progress is an "ever closer union" of pan-European integration.

---

Which the UK never subscribed to. You cannot be apostate to a belief you never held in the first place.

It's a belief that you hold and I thought you had argued repeatedly that we had signed up to it and should have known all along it was the purpose of what we'd signed up to so had no right to complain about it now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandBlade

It's a belief that you hold and I thought you had argued repeatedly that we had signed up to it and should have known all along it was the purpose of what we'd signed up to so had no right to complain about it now?

---

I'm certainly not making the EU my religion, dude. Also, I'm not the one doing the "renouncing" so I hardly see what matter my beliefs are.

The argument by Fuzzy was that we view the UK as "apostates" because they renounce a belief we others supposedly hold.

However, for that to be true we'd also need to have believed that the UK were actually followers of said belief. Which is definitely not the case: Pretty much everyone always knew about the UK's tendency to want their cake and eat it, too. Special deals abounded, temper tantrums and general grumblings, not to mention your idiotic tabloids. No one in their right mind ever thought of you as an "ardent follower of the EU as a political unit". It was always a matter of us dragging you kicking and screaming into the century of the fruitbat.

That you now have problems leaving the Union because you morons neither thought things through nor actually ever cared about what you signed on to (nevermind reading the actual contract) is a completely different beast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aimless

People are sick of experts whom they think consistently get everything wrong and want "experts" who can give positive upbeat messages, being correct not required.

---

http://digitalspyuk.cdnds.net/16/29/...d-pint-gif.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandBlade

Precisely. It's become abundantly clear that the key thing for the integrationists is Faith. The referendum campaign here provided very little positive arguments for remaining in the EU and just a lot of Faith that leaving would be bad. Even look at the word that's used to insult those who don't agree with everything the EU does: Sceptic.

Apostasy is the perfect word. But I don't view apostasy or scepticism as a bad thing, I'm an atheist and I've always believed in science and logic rather than faith.

---

You crack me up; sceptic is an insult now? I know I use the term 'euro-sceptic', but that's because these people are anything but sceptic. They're barely thinking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

I'm certainly not making the EU my religion, dude. Also, I'm not the one doing the "renouncing" so I hardly see what matter my beliefs are.

The argument by Fuzzy was that we view the UK as "apostates" because they renounce a belief we others supposedly hold.

However, for that to be true we'd also need to have believed that the UK were actually followers of said belief. Which is definitely not the case: Pretty much everyone always knew about the UK's tendency to want their cake and eat it, too. Special deals abounded, temper tantrums and general grumblings, not to mention your idiotic tabloids. No one in their right mind ever thought of you as an "ardent follower of the EU as a political unit". It was always a matter of us dragging you kicking and screaming into the century of the fruitbat.

That you now have problems leaving the Union because you morons neither thought things through nor actually ever cared about what you signed on to (nevermind reading the actual contract) is a completely different beast.

---

They were at best a heterodox sect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandBlade

Precisely. It's become abundantly clear that the key thing for the integrationists is Faith. The referendum campaign here provided very little positive arguments for remaining in the EU and just a lot of Faith that leaving would be bad. Even look at the word that's used to insult those who don't agree with everything the EU does: Sceptic.

Apostasy is the perfect word. But I don't view apostasy or scepticism as a bad thing, I'm an atheist and I've always believed in science and logic rather than faith.

---

Faith has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's about betrayal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

Which the UK never subscribed to. You cannot be apostate to a belief you never held in the first place.

---

A) all of you who I've been referencing have all repeatedly argued that they did. B) I would claim that they did sign up for it, albeit thinking of a substantially less vigorous, where the "ever-closer" was not meant quite so literally. And that's not an unusual context for apostasy, for people to turn their backs as the body of work one expects them to conform to grows and becomes more and more finely detailed.

In their eyes we've betrayed their faith. Certainly its at least heretical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandBlade

In their eyes we've betrayed their faith. Certainly its at least heretical.

---

You want to make this religious. It's not. I believe Khend was trying to allege the same thing. But the concepts apply beyond those topics. And your attempt to conflate it with religious beliefs is a flat-out bid at demonizing them, the same way Hazir does to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

A) all of you who I've been referencing have all repeatedly argued that they did.

---

Quotations please. I for one certainly don't remember making this absurd claim.

You know what I thought when hearing about Brexit? "Surely they cannot be that stupid." Coupled with: "On the other hand, it fits their MO perfectly."

And regarding your point b):

If they actually thought that they were even more moronic than I thought possible. The "political union" part is right in the opening part of the contract. And if you think that a prominent passage in a contract surely will not come to pass then I have some bottom land to sell you.

Nation of deal makers and traders, my ass. No wonder their empire collapsed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

You want to make this religious. It's not. I believe Khend was trying to allege the same thing. But the concepts apply beyond those topics. And your attempt to conflate it with religious beliefs is a flat-out bid at demonizing them, the same way Hazir does to you.

---

Fuzzy fuzzy fuzzy, the only thing you keep re-affirming is that you still don't know what you are talking about. Are you very proud you got Randy to think you're in his corner?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

Quotations please. I for one certainly don't remember making this absurd claim.

You know what I thought when hearing about Brexit? "Surely they cannot be that stupid." Coupled with: "On the other hand, it fits their MO perfectly."

And regarding your point b):

If they actually thought that they were even more moronic than I thought possible. The "political union" part is right in the opening part of the contract. And if you think that a prominent passage in a contract surely will not come to pass then I have some bottom land to sell you.

Nation of deal makers and traders, my ass. No wonder their empire collapsed.

---

Yeah, isn't it interesting you're deemed a fanatic if you call out a liar's lies? It was there, it was there intentionally and for everyone to see. Yet they think to get away by claiming it was put in their by stealth when they weren't looking.