My Four-Year-Old Son Plays Grand Theft Auto

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10-17-2010, 09:55 PM
Dreadnaught

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/...3017992438.jpg

http://failblog.org/2010/10/16/epic-...ing-fail-31-9/
10-17-2010, 10:18 PM
Illusions

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

1) Parenting issue---toddlers thrive with age-approriate limits and guidelines. Consistency from parents matters. Playing parts of an adult game can confuse a child about "what's meant for adults" or what he can challenge. Kids love to push limits, or turn No into Maybe or Yes. Adults lose credibility when the lines keep changing. A common example; who wants a kindergarten kid constantly challenging teacher's rules, if he learned at home that No never really mean No? Kids can learn creative thought and thinking outside the box while still learning rules.

2) Child Development issue---neuro-science and psychology is complicated for young children, with so much still unkown. We don't know the root causes behind autism or ADHD, let alone other pathologies that kids don't show until they're toddlers. Dyslexia, reading problems, behavioral problems, neuroses, phobias, etc. Any multi-factorial cause could include environmental elements, exposure to too much stimuli or the wrong kind (as much as depravation of stimuli can affect a growing brain). The pre-frontal lobe isn't fully developed until age 20-21 (for boys). The toddler brain is growing neural pathways, language centers, self-awareness, early moral choices, separating anxieties and fantasy from reality, on and on. They can't filter out extraneous images or stimuli the way an adult brain can, and they don't identify/exhibit/communicate stress the same way either. They're little children, not little adults.

3) Rapidly changing technology---new things will come about more rapidly than ever. We won't know how it impacts young brains or behaviors possibly for a long time to come. Toddlers aren't tweens or teens, they're a distinct sub-group of childhood with distinct needs. While tech can help, it might also hurt. Adults are supposed to err on the side of caution, and moderation.

But you're speaking to people who grew up with these things, who are now posting on these very forums.

Or, pretty much your argument breaks down to this:

GGT: People who grew up with X, will turn out like Y! Y is bad!
People who grew up with X, and who didn't turn out like Y (Us): That isn't always the case.
GGT: Yes it is! How could you know? How can anyone know!? You're not a parent!
Us: :bulb:
10-17-2010, 10:29 PM
GGT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusions

But you're speaking to people who grew up with these things, who are now posting on these very forums.

You played adult-rated video games when you were four years old? The games and screens today are like the ones around when you were four years old?

Look, I was only trying to be more clear about the origins for my POV, and 'spell things out' as LF suggested.
10-18-2010, 02:31 AM
Catgrrl

Only to play Devil's Advocate and not taking sides....

I wonder what, if any, concerns did come out back in the mid 80s when 5 year olds like me were playing Mario and Zelda. I'm curious if each generation as technology changes, does this concern continue to resurface. (Regarding game play, not ERSB ratings and appropriateness) And now with many toddler video games geared to learning, does that make it "different" than when I was just warping through pipes and collecting hearts?

Regarding TV, I've tried my hardest to not let Kaitlyn watch, but I don't want to turn off the TV myself (pretty selfish, yes). There's no way she won't look, she likes the pretty colors. So now I've just made sure I'm not watching anything too terrible.

But, honestly, I'm sure the TV was on alot when I was a baby. I seem okay. I think....at least I think I am? It's hard to say. TV has been around since the late 50s, right? Have they really done any long term studies on the effects on, say, baby boomers and television?
10-18-2010, 11:59 AM
GGT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catgrrl

Only to play Devil's Advocate and not taking sides....

I wonder what, if any, concerns did come out back in the mid 80s when 5 year olds like me were playing Mario and Zelda. I'm curious if each generation as technology changes, does this concern continue to resurface. (Regarding game play, not ERSB ratings and appropriateness) And now with many toddler video games geared to learning, does that make it "different" than when I was just warping through pipes and collecting hearts?

IT evolution is faster than generational now. It happens so fast, and we're so easily accustomed to it as integral to daily life....strange to realize how "new" laptops, google, Facebook, wifi, e-readers and smart phones really are.

But I doubt your folks monitored you with Baby Monitor [....which is available for $4.99, allows parents to place an iPhone next to a baby, and should the infant start to make noise the app will automatically dial a number so that users can listen from another phone. http://www.cnbc.com/id/39670852/ ], had a Nanny cam, drove a car with passenger flip-down tv monitors and DVR players, talking on their cell phone or checking their blackberry for email, or GPS maps imbedded in the dashboard, while you played with smart phone game apps, texted friends, or watched a movie. At the same time. For that 15 minute ride to school.

Quote:

Regarding TV, I've tried my hardest to not let Kaitlyn watch, but I don't want to turn off the TV myself (pretty selfish, yes). There's no way she won't look, she likes the pretty colors. So now I've just made sure I'm not watching anything too terrible.

But, honestly, I'm sure the TV was on alot when I was a baby. I seem okay. I think....at least I think I am? It's hard to say. TV has been around since the late 50s, right? Have they really done any long term studies on the effects on, say, baby boomers and television?

I'm not aware of any long term studies or effects, but they've probably been done. We do know "screen viewing" takes up several hours a day now, for the average person. Screens are everywhere now, big and small, 24/7, streaming CNN or FoxNews, etc. (I counted 6 big flat screens in the small bar section of a Ruby Tuesday's, all tuned to different channels. Our McDonald's now has 3 big screens. The moms with little kids sit near the tv showing Disney or Animal Planet.)

We also know kids are showing early hearing loss from direct-ear music amplification at high decibels; that kids are more sedentary than ever and childhood obesity is 'epidemic'; that cyber bullying and sexting is very real, sometimes with tragic outcomes. Yes, those are parenting issues.
10-18-2010, 01:31 PM
Illusions

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

You played adult-rated video games when you were four years old?

It would be impossible for most of us to have played adult-rated video games when we were four as the ESRB didn't exist until 1994, which was when I was 10. However I did play video games when I was that age. Duck Hunt included, which actually had a physical faux gun.

Quote:

The games and screens today are like the ones around when you were four years old?

The games? Probably not until I was ten, but that was more-so that the video game industry hadn't come out with such things until then.
10-18-2010, 02:12 PM
Ominous Gamer

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

You played adult-rated video games when you were four years old?

Have Fun
You're hitting around the time of the SNES. Lots of controversial games from that time. Mortal Kombat being the most popular. Not that it was the first. Atari had Custer's Revenge out before I was born, a game that is based around a naked cowboy raping a Native American.

Quote:

The games and screens today are like the ones around when you were four years old?

Are you claiming that previous games were less influential, or that children are unable to fantatize when using less sparkly visuals.

Spoiler:

http://speckyboy.specky.netdna-cdn.c...03/legoad5.jpg
10-18-2010, 05:03 PM
GGT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

You're hitting around the time of the SNES. Lots of controversial games from that time. Mortal Kombat being the most popular. Not that it was the first. Atari had Custer's Revenge out before I was born, a game that is based around a naked cowboy raping a Native American.

I wanted to know kind of games y'all were playing at age four. ie, of course they weren't like following generations now available to today's four yr olds. That's part of my point.

Quote:

Are you claiming that previous games were less influential, or that children are unable to fantatize when using less sparkly visuals.

No, I've never said that. :rolleyes: The evolution is fast, even between siblings. Parents can use ratings now as a tool, and gazillions of age-appropriate games are out there for toddlers and pre-schoolers. I'm not lumping ALL games into one amorphous group, and I'm certainly NOT saying games are bad for kids. I've tried to be consistent about the age of the child being what's important here.

There's not much credible reason (at least no one's explained one yet) why a 4 yr old should be on any level of GTA, since there are options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusions

The games? Probably not until I was ten, but that was more-so that the video game industry hadn't come out with such things until then.

Thank you! Now maybe you understand what I've been trying to say? :)
10-18-2010, 05:06 PM
Nessus

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

on any level of GTA,

Explain these levels.
10-18-2010, 05:13 PM
GGT

OG already did. He thinks it's fine to lock a 4 yr old into just driving around. It's been a while since I've watched my kids play the older version, or San Andreas. I just know it's odd to hear people justify if for a toddler. Explain that.
10-18-2010, 05:15 PM
Nessus

:rolleyes:
10-18-2010, 05:17 PM
GGT

Nessie, you also never said what age is too young for a game like GTA, or adult-rated games. Explain that. Without rolling your eyes. If you've got a strong opinion about any game for any age, please explain why. :coffee:
10-18-2010, 05:20 PM
Nessus

:coffee: Right back at you
10-18-2010, 05:25 PM
Ominous Gamer

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

No, I've never said that.

then explain this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

ie, of course they weren't like following generations now available to today's four yr olds.

because so far all I'm seeing is that your mind considers the current (or recent) generations of video games to realistic. Nevermind how that will hold up in another 10-20 years, or how a 4 year old is able to fill in the blanks when relating make believe to their real world information.

Here is a 3 pixel example. These are the identifible avatars of the Simpsons characters.
http://imgur.com/Qc0up.jpg
10-18-2010, 05:27 PM
GGT

So you really don't have an opinion about what is appropriate for a 4 yr old to play, or why. You've just been arguing with me, to argue? You called me (and other parents) who set some limits based on AAP recommendations or ESRB ratings "ignorant and hysterical", but you can't back it up with a reason. :hmm:
10-18-2010, 05:33 PM
GGT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

then explain this:

because so far all I'm seeing is that your mind considers the current (or recent) generations of video games to realistic. Nevermind how that will hold up in another 10-20 years, or how a 4 year old is able to fill in the blanks when relating make believe to their real world information.

I'm saying that between so many games, genres, platforms, phones that play games, multiple screens and images young kids are exposed to today, every day....that the parents should pay attention. Set limits, say No sometimes, stay within their age group.
10-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Ominous Gamer

Allowing a 4 year old to free roam in GTA means the parents haven't set limits, can't say no? :bulb:
The age group concept is simply wrong, and it sadly works both ways. To old to act like that, to young to understand this...those are bullshit limits imposed by somebody (or group) that usually doesn't have any personal experience with the scenario at hand. Taken and entrusted by parents who are to busy/lazy/clueless to make a decision on their own.
10-18-2010, 05:38 PM
GGT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Allowing a 4 year old to free roam in GTA means the parents haven't set limits, can't say no? :bulb:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

There's not much credible reason (at least no one's explained one yet) why a 4 yr old should be on any level of GTA, since there are options.

I've explained my POV and why. No reason for me to keep defending it, unless you just ignore what I've said.

Now it's your turn to explain why a 4 yr old should be playing GTA.
10-18-2010, 05:43 PM
Nessus

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

So you really don't have an opinion about what is appropriate for a 4 yr old to play, or why. You've just been arguing with me, to argue? You called me (and other parents) who set some limits based on AAP recommendations or ESRB ratings "ignorant and hysterical", but you can't back it up with a reason. :hmm:

It's impossible to "argue" with someone who's not having the same conversation as the rest.
10-18-2010, 05:43 PM
Ominous Gamer

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

I've explained my POV and why. No reason for me to keep defending it, unless you just ignore what I've said.

Now it's your turn to explain why a 4 yr old should be playing GTA.

Why a 4 year old should be doing anything was never part of the discussion. That I've already addressed.

but we're still waiting on what part of GTA this 4 year old is going to be able to access that creates the scenario you already created

Quote:

When his son is 8 years old and talking about taklng out/killing whores,

"Should" and "should not" are not interchangeable in this discussion.
10-18-2010, 05:44 PM
Nessus

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

Now it's your turn to explain why a 4 yr old should be playing GTA.

That's a pretty advanced Jedi mind trick you just pulled there, you sure you're up to the task?
10-18-2010, 05:50 PM
GGT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessus

That's a pretty advanced Jedi mind trick you just pulled there, you sure you're up to the task?

What? I've tried to explain why I see this as being about parenting and child development regarding IT. It just so happens to involve an adult-rated video game called GTA.

IMO there are reasons to DO something as much as NOT do something, concerning four year olds, how they're parented and educated, what they're exposed to....and why. I think it's a pretty straight forward question.
10-18-2010, 05:52 PM
Nessus

Yeah, you went on a crazy tangent and expect everyone else to follow, and now we have to prove things to you instead? These certainly aren't the droids we were looking for!
10-18-2010, 05:54 PM
Crowheart

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

There's not much credible reason (at least no one's explained one yet) why a 4 yr old should be on any level of GTA, since there are options.

The reason would be, that it's not the game itself, or the rating you're protecting the child from, but the content itself.
In GTA, the player initiates all content, it is perfectly feasible to play without being exposed to any of the content that generated the ESRB rating.

Pick a game where the player is FORCED to partake in mature content, and I'm right on board with you..I don't want my nieces playing, for example, God of War, or even watching me play it, because they don't need to see that bloody violence which is the only thing happening there, and the only thing that CAN happen.

The kid in the story had an "E" experience, regardless of what's stamped on the box, that's what happened, and what will happen everytime as he's the one initiating the action.
His father is clearly supervising his playing, so why are other options better, when the result is the same?
10-18-2010, 06:09 PM
GGT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowheart

The reason would be, that it's not the game itself, or the rating you're protecting the child from, but the content itself.
In GTA, the player initiates all content, it is perfectly feasible to play without being exposed to any of the content that generated the ESRB rating.

Pages back I explained why the rating matters to a kid; they're aware of it, they know it. I understand when and why parents disagree or override ESRB sometimes, I've done it myself. But 4 yr olds are precocious and pick up on the disc cover or graphics on downloads with the rating. They probably know it's a game for grown-ups and get a kick out of that, doing something adults do. What's cute at 4 can backfire at 5 or 6. ;)

Quote:

Pick a game where the player is FORCED to partake in mature content, and I'm right on board with you..I don't want my nieces playing, for example, God of War, or even watching me play it, because they don't need to see that bloody violence which is the only thing happening there, and the only thing that CAN happen.

The kid in the story had an "E" experience, regardless of what's stamped on the box, that's what happened, and what will happen everytime as he's the one initiating the action.
His father is clearly supervising his playing, so why are other options better, when the result is the same?

see above, or my earlier posts about consistency of limits, and how that can end up with a kid who'll try and sneak the game unsupervised, or a kindergartener who won't listen to teacher's rules. I could add some anecdotal stories now, but someone might protest. :p
10-18-2010, 06:28 PM
GGT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessus

Yeah, you went on a crazy tangent and expect everyone else to follow, and now we have to prove things to you instead? These certainly aren't the droids we were looking for!

You're in a lovely mood today. If you don't like my crrrazy tangents, then ignore them. If you think I'm out of line, then report me. If you have an opinion on young kids and games, share it.

I found it refreshing to have a thread that wasn't about politics or money for a change. :)
10-18-2010, 06:38 PM
Ominous Gamer

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

see above, or my earlier posts about consistency of limits, and how that can end up with a kid who'll try and sneak the game unsupervised, or a kindergartener who won't listen to teacher's rules.

Yeah...none of these are related to, much less reliant towards, a 4 year old being allowed to free roam in GTA. You're playing the one in a million catastrophe card, which in one form or another, can be used to agrue againist allowing anyone to do anything.
10-18-2010, 06:39 PM
Nessus

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGT

You're in a lovely mood today. If you don't like my crrrazy tangents, then ignore them. If you think I'm out of line, then report me. If you have an opinion on young kids and games, share it.

There's nothing report-worthy about moving the goal posts :|
10-18-2010, 06:47 PM
Knux897

Some people here have obviously never played GTA before...
10-18-2010, 06:51 PM
Crowheart

My nieces (4 and 6 years old) watch me play Red Dead Redemption.
It's rated M, and hits pretty much every item in the book..(violence, language, etc.)
They see none of that, and have no idea it's there.

They call it the "Horse-riding game"
When they watch me play (they don't like to play, but to watch, and sometimes "direct"..;)), they see me riding horses, lassoing other horses, they direct me to change outfits constantly, or just wander around.
It's a horse riding game to them, that is the experience they got from it.

They understand that they aren't allowed to touch the games without Uncle Crow there, that the games are not for children (their words..hehe)
So yes, they know it's for adults, but the reason WHY for them, lies in the sole reason that Uncle Crow said so, not because it contains mature content..they don't even know it's there.

Would I buy that game for them specifically?
Hell, no.
Allow them to play it unsupervised (or watch me play the mature side of it)?...Hell no again.

I agree that consistency is needed!
The consistency lies in not exposing them to that type of content, and I can do that regardless of the rating, through proper supervision and laying down a groundwork of rules.

They aren't going to sneak the game out, because they know the rules, and their parents have taught them to obey, and they are constantly supervised.
Your argument only makes sense to me, when those conditions aren't happening...then, I agree, it's a problem.

But I'm not going to stop them from enjoying watching me ride the "horsie" simply because of a stamp on a box, or because other families have had trouble enforcing discipline.

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