What what, did I hear "increase the child tax credit"?

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Why?

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This I borrow from my education classes.

It humbles them. People learn more, and faster from screwing up.
These families that get knocked down a little, the kids (and even parents) remember that. They grow up with better financial skills; saving more, and making better overall financial decisions. If the kids grow up knowing the government got them through a tough spot, that is what they come to expect.

Just like when students go apeshit over a hard test when they've become accustomed to work far easier.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Yep, that's class envy, you don't want those who are marginally better off than you to suck at the state's teat, where you have no problems with the state offering it to your social stratum.

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You can take the user out of the forums, but you can't take the reading problems out of the user. :\

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

This I borrow from my education classes.

It humbles them. People learn more, and faster from screwing up.
These families that get knocked down a little, the kids (and even parents) remember that. They grow up with better financial skills, saving more, and making better financial decisions. If the kids grow up knowing the government got them through a tough spot, that is what they come to expect.

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[Citation needed]

I contend that kids who've been doing all right benefit far more from continued stability and uninterrupted progress than the do from "character-building" setbacks at an early age before they've acquired the ability to reflect on and to learn from such events.

You have no way of guaranteeing that a significant majority of these kids will benefit from being financially "humbled". You most certainly have no way to predict what will happen to each of these families if they're knocked down a rung or two on the financial ladder.

I think what you're doing here is what parents who were spanked as children often do.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

[Citation needed]

I contend that kids who've been doing all right benefit far more from continued stability and uninterrupted progress than the do from "character-building" setbacks at an early age before they've acquired the ability to reflect on and to learn from such events.

You have no way of guaranteeing that a significant majority of these kids will benefit from being financially "humbled". You most certainly have no way to predict what will happen to each of these families if they're knocked down a rung or two on the financial ladder.

I think what you're doing here is what parents who were spanked as children often do.

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Recession Generations learn to save more with less
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Current familes save more, with less, by cutting back (are you claiming the children won't pick these skills up from their parents?)

Are you claiming that teaching kids to save money is more important than letting them develop to their fullest potential?

I don't want to legitimise your articles, but:

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Meanwhile, there's an entire body of research to show that recession babies not only invest more conservatively, they tend to make less money, choose safer jobs, and believe in wealth redistribution and more government intervention. Yet paradoxically, they are also more cynical about public institutions and, arguably, about life, embracing the European notion that success is more about luck than effort. To the extent that they grapple with unemployment, they are more likely to be more depressed and disconnected from their communities. Politically, they can skew either left or right, depending on the cultural zeitgeist and the leaders who seize the moment. Economic downturns, after all, not only created the New Deal, but also the Third Reich.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

letting them develop to their fullest potential?

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I don't believe class status is such a roadblock as it used to be, or as you claim it is. Especially between the middle and lower classes.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

I don't believe class status is such a roadblock as it used to be, or as you claim it is. Especially between the middle and lower classes.

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How do you determine that, when better schools are going to be in wealthier areas?

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

I don't believe class status is such a roadblock as it used to be, or as you claim it is. Especially between the middle and lower classes.

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Has the world changed or do things like income, resources, opportunities, perceived status and ability, level of stress, extent of active parenting, etc no longer matter to a person's development?

And... have you actually read the Newsweek article you linked to??

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Originally Posted by littlelolligagged

How do you determine that, when better schools are going to be in wealthier areas?

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because learning from individual sources, such as School A over School B (or even Teacher A instead of Teacher B), is becoming less and less common. As new forms to spread information develop the line that divides who gets to learn what fades.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

because learning from individual sources, such as School A over School B (or even Teacher A instead of Teacher B), is becoming less and less common. As new forms to spread information develop the line that divides who gets to learn what fades.

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So that makes it okay not to provide your children with every possible opportunity?

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Originally Posted by littlelolligagged

So that makes it okay not to provide your children with every possible opportunity?

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I don't see how this involves making sure you have more money than the other parents.

Btw do you understand why I take issue with your position here OG?

It's because, in my view, you're saying we should be willing to gamble with the future of a large group of children based on your questionable notions about character and suchlike. I think that, rather than to gamble with such high stakes, we should concentrate on sorting out your own personal issues--specifically those that predispose you to believe that kids should experience the consequences of significant financial hardship at an early age.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

because learning from individual sources, such as School A over School B (or even Teacher A instead of Teacher B), is becoming less and less common. As new forms to spread information develop the line that divides who gets to learn what fades.

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Have kids stopped going to kindergarten, preschool, primary school etc??? They still need to learn to learn, and they still need to develop good healthy attitudes towards learning, towards developing their creativity, towards other people, etc, and at an early age that still comes from a few people in their surroundings more than it does from wikipedia. They still need to exercise their learning skills and their skill with applying what they've learned. They still need feedback.

And thank GOD for that :o

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You shouldn't be paying income tax at all, IMHO. That's the net effect but it seems inefficient to take that money out of your check just to send it back to you.

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If you claim the proper withholding, plus any extra "contributions" (yes, thats term on the form) on your w4, then things balance out well, Like in OG's case. Many people don't understand how to do this properly and just have whatever taken out of their checks. It's like giving an interest free loan to the govt. which they pay back at the end of the year.

You guys are nuts if you think SS won't be there when you retire. It will be there. The political calculus will ensure we will always have social security.

That being said it will likely be less then you planned. I suspect that before my generation retires SS will be moved back a good five years. Alternatively they will start means testing and penalize anyone who actually worked their ass off to build seperate retirement accounts.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

That being said it will likely be less then you planned. I suspect that before my generation retires SS will be moved back a good five years. Alternatively they will start means testing and penalize anyone who actually worked their ass off to build seperate retirement accounts.

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Are you saying everyone with a seperate retirement account worked their ass off? And that everyone without a seperate retirement account didn't work their ass off? Maybe you don't live in the world of privilege or working class but is that justification for you to ignore them?

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Originally Posted by GGT

Link that stated purpose was to increase the SIZE of the middle class?

I was under the impression that all this talk of tax credits/refunds/rebates was to put more money back in peoples' pockets, with the theory that they'll do one of two things: Save for their kids and/or retirement--which reduces future need for further government subsidy, or Spend it--which stimulates the general economy.

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Something that Biden said, I think. But, if it doesn't increase the size of the middle class, it's just waste. Stimulating the economy by giving handouts is waste. Obama tried it early last year by giving handouts far and wide to various companies (and distorted markets to boot), and i just got us waste on an enormous scale.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

This I borrow from my education classes.

It humbles them. People learn more, and faster from screwing up.
These families that get knocked down a little, the kids (and even parents) remember that. They grow up with better financial skills; saving more, and making better overall financial decisions. If the kids grow up knowing the government got them through a tough spot, that is what they come to expect.

Just like when students go apeshit over a hard test when they've become accustomed to work far easier.

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I think you just made a case for your family NOT getting a child tax credit. After all, you're using it for a cruise vacation.

I didn't read your link to recession babies, because we have recessions every few years. Some longer and deeper than others, but yeah, I'm a recession survivor. If this is your first memorable downturn, then according to your own logic---suck it up. The first things that go are frivolous vacations and redundant toys.

:P