Female genital mutilation okay in small doses, says American Academy of Pediatrics

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Originally Posted by Flixy

And that's even besides the fact that even if the circumcision itself has no downsides (which I doubt, but okay), it is still surgery, and surgery comes with risks. I'd say it's pretty unfair to a baby who has no choice in the matter to give him unneeded surgery, for no medical reason whatsoever, just because the parents like it. I don't give a damn if a consenting adult chooses to get it, but a baby? It's unneeded and irreversible, man.

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Originally Posted by CitizenCain

First of all, it was only two points, really (repeated several times), so I find your refusal to address any of it (not to mention the chance to make $5,000) pretty weak and disingenuous. Secondly, you've pretty much ignored the "paragraphs, man" posts I've made too, which further convinces me that this latest objection is really just a cheap cop out - you don't want to address my points, because you can't satisfactorily defend the idea of forcibly mutilating an infant's genitals.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, no one has a problem with consenting adults voluntarily choosing to mutilate themselves, or their genitals. But forcing infants to undergo genital mutilation surgery, for *no* reason other than aesthetics or social inertia or... whatever... is just reprehensible. If *you* want to demonstrate your commitment to and love of Yahweh by having your junk skinned (when you're old enough to make that decision), that's fine. Good for you... I guess. But it's not OK to show your faith by skinning a helpless fucking infant, Goddammit.

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So, again, 5 grand for you to get another 20% of your dick skinned, which should be no big deal if you really believe what you're saying.

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Kids get surgery all the time. We take kids tonsils out. We throw unwilling kids into orthodontics (often involving tons of pain and sometimes surgery) when they always fracking hate it. I don't see a huge difference except that babies don't remember being circumcised.

Once again, I think there is notable reasons why it can be beneficial and I don't think there are downsides to a properly done circumcision. Which makes it an elective (and in some cases for the parents, religiously imperative) procedure.

Cain's attempt to compare foreskin removal with actual penis removal is laughable and pointless. Removing foreskin doesn't disrupt function or sensation. And once again, I find it interesting how much dudes who aren't circumcised seem to care about this.

Circumcision is not medically necessary. Your penis was mutilated when you were an infant for strictly cultural reasons; reasons so strong you defend the practice even now when it is so plainly senseless.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Kids get surgery all the time. We take kids tonsils out. We throw unwilling kids into orthodontics (often involving tons of pain and sometimes surgery) when they always fracking hate it. I don't see a huge difference except that babies don't remember being circumcised.

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Tonsils have a medical reason. Most, if not all other surgery does, too. Orthodontics has a point, but AFAIK surgery in that area is only done if there is a medical need for it (not cosmetic). Plus it's at higher ages, and, for example, I had a choice in the matter (and said no to it, and I don't regret that).

I'm sure you have a point that it can be beneficial, but it can also not be. And there is risk involved, and it's irreversible, and there is no reason why you can't wait until higher age to do it. It's just a cultural thing.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Circumcision is not medically necessary. Your penis was mutilated when you were an infant for strictly cultural reasons; reasons so strong you defend the practice even now when it is so plainly senseless.

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Way to totally ignore some of the literature that's been posted suggesting some possible benefits, but not enough to make it either necessary or useless.

And way to misuse the word "mutilate".

What an empirical mind you are demonstrating.

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Originally Posted by Flixy

Tonsils have a medical reason. Most, if not all other surgery does, too. Orthodontics has a point, but AFAIK surgery in that area is only done if there is a medical need for it (not cosmetic). Plus it's at higher ages, and, for example, I had a choice in the matter (and said no to it, and I don't regret that).

I'm sure you have a point that it can be beneficial, but it can also not be. And there is risk involved, and it's irreversible, and there is no reason why you can't wait until higher age to do it. It's just a cultural thing.

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Of course it's a cultural thing, but that doesn't mean it has zero possible merit and should be banned.

Increasingly, people aren't so sure tonsils have a totally iron-clad medical justification. Tonsil removal has certainly declined a lot. And orthodontic surgery is definitely done for cosmetic reasons.

I'm not really interested in getting into this debate, but I wanted to share one little bit of information for the discussion. It is not uncommon with certain genetic disorders to have abnormal or ambiguous genitalia (a famous example is CAH, or 21-hydroxylase deficiency), especially for girls. Despite the fact that it is not medically necessary, it is a fairly common (and largely accepted) practice to carry out some form of genital reconstructive surgery on infants born with such conditions. In the past, some parents have opted for gender reassignment surgery, but for some time now, it has been fairly standard to restore the infants to an anatomy closely resembling 'normal' for their genetic gender.

Is this genital mutilation, and should it be disallowed?

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Originally Posted by wiggin

I'm not really interested in getting into this debate, but I wanted to share one little bit of information for the discussion. It is not uncommon with certain genetic disorders to have abnormal or ambiguous genitalia (a famous example is CAH, or 21-hydroxylase deficiency), especially for girls. Despite the fact that it is not medically necessary, it is a fairly common (and largely accepted) practice to carry out some form of genital reconstructive surgery on infants born with such conditions. In the past, some parents have opted for gender reassignment surgery, but for some time now, it has been fairly standard to restore the infants to an anatomy closely resembling 'normal' for their genetic gender.

Is this genital mutilation, and should it be disallowed?

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I prefer to pretend those people don't exist. Kinda gross.

When I saw that Lewk had posted in this I was curious what his views were. Needless to say I didn't expect that post commenting on that issue.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Kids get surgery all the time.

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FOR MEDICAL REASONS.

Not because some crazy moralistic fuck-wit decided that skinning someone's genitals, without anesthetic (or consent) was a reasonable way to punish little boys for the heinously immoral act of masturbation.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Once again, I think there is notable reasons why it can be beneficial

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Third-degree burns prevent acne. That doesn't make it alright to light your infant child's face on fire.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Which makes it an elective (and in some cases for the parents, religiously imperative) procedure.

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Yes, that *is* the argument made in favor of female genital mutilation.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Cain's attempt to compare foreskin removal with actual penis removal is laughable and pointless.

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And where, EXACTLY, the fucking fuck did Cain do that?

"Genital mutilation" is not synonymous with "penis removal," thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Of course it's a cultural thing, but that doesn't mean it has zero possible merit and should be banned. .

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Third-degree burns prevent acne. Therefore, we should not ban lighting childrens' faces on fire, because there's a medical justification for doing so. Can you not hear yourself or something?

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Originally Posted by wiggin

I'm not really interested in getting into this debate, but I wanted to share one little bit of information for the discussion. It is not uncommon with certain genetic disorders to have abnormal or ambiguous genitalia (a famous example is CAH, or 21-hydroxylase deficiency), especially for girls. Despite the fact that it is not medically necessary, it is a fairly common (and largely accepted) practice to carry out some form of genital reconstructive surgery on infants born with such conditions. In the past, some parents have opted for gender reassignment surgery, but for some time now, it has been fairly standard to restore the infants to an anatomy closely resembling 'normal' for their genetic gender.

Is this genital mutilation, and should it be disallowed?

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When parents get kiddy-winks with some linear combination of genitalia instead of the usual either-or, the end result tends to be very unhappy for the child and usually for the parents as well. If trannies have it hard, these people often have it worse. Yippe. Never mind what was done to the kids without even consulting the parents in those golden days when people like Lewk were the moderates.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

I prefer to pretend those people don't exist. Kinda gross.

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God's little jokes, huh

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Way to totally ignore some of the literature that's been posted suggesting some possible benefits, but not enough to make it either necessary or useless.

And way to misuse the word "mutilate".

What an empirical mind you are demonstrating.

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I read your article. The inflamations the study references are resulting from lack of cleanliness. Yeah, the kid without a foreskin isn't likely to have a foreskin infection. By that logic, cavities can be prevented by removing your teeth. I think an argument can be made that washing yourself is better than mutilation.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

I'm not really interested in getting into this debate, but I wanted to share one little bit of information for the discussion. It is not uncommon with certain genetic disorders to have abnormal or ambiguous genitalia (a famous example is CAH, or 21-hydroxylase deficiency), especially for girls. Despite the fact that it is not medically necessary, it is a fairly common (and largely accepted) practice to carry out some form of genital reconstructive surgery on infants born with such conditions. In the past, some parents have opted for gender reassignment surgery, but for some time now, it has been fairly standard to restore the infants to an anatomy closely resembling 'normal' for their genetic gender.

Is this genital mutilation, and should it be disallowed?

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While this is only very periferally related to the topic, it is definitely an interesting conundrum.
What happens to these children when they grow up without surgical intervention?

No, I meant the other articles. The emotions here are fascinating.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

No, I meant the other articles. The emotions here are fascinating.

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You're not fascinated, you're annoyed. I can see it. And I'm not emotional about it, truly. I understand the supreme power of culture and I don't think circumcission is anywhere near the biggest cultural issue the US has to deal with. What is fascinating is an entire country of people that circumsizes their little boys without a thought will point, in outrage, to a culture in Afirca that circumsizes it's little girls and call them barbaric.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

While this is only very periferally related to the topic, it is definitely an interesting conundrum.
What happens to these children when they grow up without surgical intervention?

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I'm not sure how peripheral this is. Fundamentally, the parents of the children choose reconstructive surgery so their children will live a socially 'normal' life wrt the appearance of their genitals. The surgeries do not come without significant risk, of course - impaired sexual function is not uncommon, along with the usual issues with major surgery. It is performed on infants who have no say in the matter.

If a particular cosmetic procedure is considered socially 'normal', even if it may have potential adverse side effects, should it be allowed on infants? That's the real question everyone is dancing around. If the answer is 'yes', then it makes sense to allow circumcisions and 'FGM' and other variants in a socially appropriate context. If the answer is 'no', we need to understand society's acceptance of some but not all such procedures and discard the 'forcing cosmetic surgery with potential side effects on infants' line of reasoning.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

If a particular cosmetic procedure is considered socially 'normal', even if it may have potential adverse side effects, should it be allowed on infants? That's the real question everyone is dancing around. If the answer is 'yes', then it makes sense to allow circumcisions and 'FGM' and other variants in a socially appropriate context. If the answer is 'no', we need to understand society's acceptance of some but not all such procedures and discard the 'forcing cosmetic surgery with potential side effects on infants' line of reasoning.

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Isn't that what we've been doing---challenging that infant male circumcision is not "socially normal", just as FGM isn't normal?

I lost track. Did anyone explain why the Jewish bris can't be done at age of consent instead of infancy?

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Originally Posted by GGT

Isn't that what we've been doing---challenging that infant male circumcision is not "socially normal", just as FGM isn't normal?

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Then one would be forced into accepting FGM in societies in which it is normal. Some friends of mine recently did a rotation as med students in Mali. I believe they said that in the south of the country, something like 95% of the female population had received some variant of FGM. Is this acceptable?

Similarly, in communities in which male circumcision is the overwhelming norm (Jews, Muslims, some American Protestants), wouldn't it be just as justified?

The point I'm trying to make is that the underlying rationale being used here is flawed, unless one also believes that genital reconstruction of infants should be forbidden in such cases as I described above.

That's why we're arguing. The AAP did an about-face in policy, and contradicts WHO's policy.

Anyone care to inform me about Jewish tradition, and why it's done on infants? What's the reasoning, besides continuing a historical ritual?

Don't you love how GGT pretends *and perhaps even thinks* she's written a reply, when she's completely ignoring everything you wrote?

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Originally Posted by wiggin

The point I'm trying to make is that the underlying rationale being used here is flawed, unless one also believes that genital reconstruction of infants should be forbidden in such cases as I described above.

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If a particular cosmetic procedure is considered socially 'normal', even if it may have potential adverse side effects, should it be allowed on infants? That's the real question everyone is dancing around.

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Not very many people in this thread are using the argument that its wrong because its not normal. Nor have i seen much "dancing around". Except maybe from dread, but he has natural rythym.

Ive seen

1) Medically unnecessary
2) No consent
3) Outdated tradition
4) Dangerous - Can cause harm if botched
5) Harmful (potentially) - reduces sensation
6) Argument that it prevents STDs is either unfounded or weak
7) Argument that it is unhygienic is wrong or irrelevant
8) Argument that it should be done to stop masturbation (kellogg) is morally dubious

And thats just off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

I prefer to pretend those people don't exist.

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Oh that's your opinion on everyone who isn't a straight white christian. :p

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

While this is only very periferally related to the topic, it is definitely an interesting conundrum.
What happens to these children when they grow up without surgical intervention?

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http://www.isna.org/

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

Not very many people in this thread are using the argument that its wrong because its not normal. Nor have i seen much "dancing around". Except maybe from dread, but he has natural rythym.

Ive seen

1) Medically unnecessary
2) No consent
3) Outdated tradition
4) Dangerous - Can cause harm if botched
5) Harmful (potentially) - reduces sensation
6) Argument that it prevents STDs is either unfounded or weak
7) Argument that it is unhygienic is wrong or irrelevant
8) Argument that it should be done to stop masturbation (kellogg) is morally dubious

And thats just off the top of my head.

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OMG does no one have a shred of training in logic or rhetoric?

My point has nothing to do with whether it is 'normal'. My point is that 1-5 (the real arguments used here) could also apply to genital reconstruction surgeries performed on infants. Thus, either we need another reason to disallow FGM and male circumcision, or we need to also disallow genital reconstruction surgeries on infants.

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Thus, either we need another reason to disallow FGM and male circumcision, or we need to also disallow genital reconstruction surgeries on infants.

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Have you found someone who would argue for "reconstruction" for infants? And furthermore, unless you want to draw up some lines on which cases would warrant procedures on infants, you're entering murky and very vague territory. And lastly, even if the doctors don't know what the fuck they're doing, the goal of "reconstruction" is to make something usable out of something that in the worst cases isn't; FGM in particular and male circumcision to a degree only serve cultural needs for removing non-essentials (or some essentials in the case of FGM).

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

Don't you love how GGT pretends *and perhaps even thinks* she's written a reply, when she's completely ignoring everything you wrote?

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I don't see where wiggin explained WHY Jewish circumcision is done, let alone done in infancy instead of consent or bar mitzvah.

He went on about "community norms" (including Jews) then Mali, then onto reconstruction of genetic anomolies. If I missed the reply to my Jewish question then so sorry. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by GGT

I don't see where wiggin explained WHY Jewish circumcision is done, let alone done in infancy instead of consent or bar mitzvah.

He went on about "community norms" (including Jews) then Mali, then onto reconstruction of genetic anomolies. If I missed the reply to my Jewish question then so sorry. :rolleyes:

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Except "Jewish circumcision" and social "norms" relating to such practices have absolutely no bearing on what he was talking about, and he never referenced them in any way. He said the current discussion of the thread was moot and illogical if it ignored another topic, and he then went on to present that topic.

It's like he presents a topic of apples and you reply by asking "but why do carrots grow in the ground"? He might as well not have posted at all, because your question completely ignores everything he said.

There are three Jewish men posting in this thread. I didn't think it was so horrible to ask how it's explained as a RELIGIOUS RITUAL according to "Jewish Law". Especially since not all Jews are orthodox, practice kosher eating, or wear yamulkes.

The other topic isn't the same, IMO, because it's about repairing genetic genital ANOMALIES. The foreskin in not a defect or anomaly. I was curious if Jews define foreskin as a defect or something along those lines.

But don't let that keep you from riding your high horse around, Fuzzy. :bored:

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Originally Posted by GGT

There are three Jewish men posting in this thread. I didn't think it was so horrible to ask how it's explained as a RELIGIOUS RITUAL according to "Jewish Law". Especially since not all Jews are orthodox, practice kosher eating, or wear yamulkes.

The other topic isn't the same, IMO, because it's about repairing genetic genital ANOMALIES. The foreskin in not a defect or anomaly. I was curious if Jews define foreskin as a defect or something along those lines.

But don't let that keep you from riding your high horse around, Fuzzy. :bored:

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So, again, just as I said, you ignored everything he wrote in your "reply" to him. He might as well have not posted anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Removing foreskin doesn't disrupt function or sensation.

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I'm calling BS on this. I'm almost certain it does disrupt sensation in many cases.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

I prefer to pretend those people don't exist. Kinda gross.

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Can't handle God's world, huh?

Or maybe it's actually proof that God didn't create us? The Devil is in the details, eh? :D

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Originally Posted by wiggin

I'm not really interested in getting into this debate, but I wanted to share one little bit of information for the discussion. It is not uncommon with certain genetic disorders to have abnormal or ambiguous genitalia (a famous example is CAH, or 21-hydroxylase deficiency), especially for girls. Despite the fact that it is not medically necessary, it is a fairly common (and largely accepted) practice to carry out some form of genital reconstructive surgery on infants born with such conditions. In the past, some parents have opted for gender reassignment surgery, but for some time now, it has been fairly standard to restore the infants to an anatomy closely resembling 'normal' for their genetic gender.

Is this genital mutilation, and should it be disallowed?

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No, it's not genital mutilation to repair a genetic abnormality or ambiguous genitalia. It's considered "medically necessary" for the healthy formation of gender identity, and should be allowed. As time goes by physicians are reluctant to do gender reassignment surgery in infants and often delay it until they're a bit older. It's a complicate process, not to be taken lightly, and they don't.

Foreskins aren't abnormal and don't produce mental health or identity disorders in adulthood.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

I'm not sure how peripheral this is. Fundamentally, the parents of the children choose reconstructive surgery so their children will live a socially 'normal' life wrt the appearance of their genitals. The surgeries do not come without significant risk, of course - impaired sexual function is not uncommon, along with the usual issues with major surgery. It is performed on infants who have no say in the matter.

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That's why (over time) surgery is delayed. Sometimes the neonate's hormones take months to dissipate, and swollen vulva shrinks. (Anyone who's had a baby girl knows their vulva is "swollen" because of the mother's hormones.) Simple chromosomal blood tests don't always make things so clear-cut.

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If a particular cosmetic procedure is considered socially 'normal', even if it may have potential adverse side effects, should it be allowed on infants? That's the real question everyone is dancing around. If the answer is 'yes', then it makes sense to allow circumcisions and 'FGM' and other variants in a socially appropriate context. If the answer is 'no', we need to understand society's acceptance of some but not all such procedures and discard the 'forcing cosmetic surgery with potential side effects on infants' line of reasoning.

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What I'm asking is how and why infant male foreskin cutting is still considered "socially normal", when all the medicine and studies show there's no medical necessity.

So my answer would be NO, and go back to questioning "society's acceptance of some but not all such procedures".....on genitals. Particularly the Judaic tradition. Since people are reluctant to tell parents how they should or shouldn't practice religion when it comes to medical issues, this falls into the trifecta of religion + culture + parenting.

Christian Scientists who choose NOT to do something medical for their children are held accountable and taken to court, if they deny important care to their baby. Non-religious parents can be forced legally to vaccinate public school-aged children.

Circumcision, however, is an ACT of doing something to a baby. Committing is different from omitting. Protestants and others can be convinced/encouraged that the old attitude toward "cleanliness" is a myth. Insurance companies have decided it's medically unnecessary as well. Physicians have said they understand cultural and religious reasons, but I'm interested in the Jewish tradition and why it's considered a Jewish Law.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Then one would be forced into accepting FGM in societies in which it is normal. Some friends of mine recently did a rotation as med students in Mali. I believe they said that in the south of the country, something like 95% of the female population had received some variant of FGM. Is this acceptable?

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No, just because a large part of a population does something doesn't make it acceptable. That's why WHO has a policy condemning FGM, and it's a cultural practice (and attitude) that needs to be changed.

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Similarly, in communities in which male circumcision is the overwhelming norm (Jews, Muslims, some American Protestants), wouldn't it be just as justified?

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No, just because it's a common cultural norm doesn't make it justified. Just because millions do it doesn't make it right. That leaves me back to the RELIGIOUS aspect. afaik it's only a Jewish religious "law", not a Muslim or Christian one.

As a Jew, would you please expand on that for me?

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The point I'm trying to make is that the underlying rationale being used here is flawed, unless one also believes that genital reconstruction of infants should be forbidden in such cases as I described above.

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I disagree. Reconstruction genital surgery on infants is done to repair anomalies. Can you show me where Jewish Law states a foreskin is "abnormal" and needs to be removed?

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Originally Posted by wiggin

OMG does no one have a shred of training in logic or rhetoric?

My point has nothing to do with whether it is 'normal'. My point is that 1-5 (the real arguments used here) could also apply to genital reconstruction surgeries performed on infants. Thus, either we need another reason to disallow FGM and male circumcision, or we need to also disallow genital reconstruction surgeries on infants.

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Again, I disagree. Genital reconstruction is not the same as cutting off a perfectly natural, healthy, NORMAL foreskin.

If some places (and physicians) can say FGM is acceptable, that's how others will continue to justify male circumcision....they will give a predominantly religious reason.

It's almost as if AAP bent backward to include continued male cutting in the same category as female "pricking", in order to appease the religious aspect. That's why I'm asking for clarification of the traditional Jewish rite, and why it's done in infancy and not at age of consent. Because I'm not familiar with Jewish Law.

Thank you in advance.




Also, fuck you Fuzzy. :)

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Originally Posted by wiggin

OMG does no one have a shred of training in logic or rhetoric?

My point has nothing to do with whether it is 'normal'. My point is that 1-5 (the real arguments used here) could also apply to genital reconstruction surgeries performed on infants. Thus, either we need another reason to disallow FGM and male circumcision, or we need to also disallow genital reconstruction surgeries on infants.

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I call bullshit; you can't possibly compare situations. In one the procedure is based on the condition of the subject. In the other the procedure has no relationship whatsoever to the condition of the subject but is executed on the basis of the subject's gender.

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Originally Posted by Nessus

Have you found someone who would argue for "reconstruction" for infants? And furthermore, unless you want to draw up some lines on which cases would warrant procedures on infants, you're entering murky and very vague territory. And lastly, even if the doctors don't know what the fuck they're doing, the goal of "reconstruction" is to make something usable out of something that in the worst cases isn't; FGM in particular and male circumcision to a degree only serve cultural needs for removing non-essentials (or some essentials in the case of FGM).

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I'm asking what people here think, not trying to read anything into the situation. Please, tell me - do you think it's reasonable to carry out genital reconstruction on babies for purely cosmetic (and social/psychological/whatever) reasons? Neither you nor anyone else in this thread has yet to answer the question. You can argue about whether some cases have valid medical justifications but at the end I'd like an answer. I'm perfectly fine with answers either way, I think it should just inform our discussion.

If you want to know what I think, I think that this is all murky territory. In principle, I can see being hesitant to carry out any of the three discussed procedures (a variant of FGM, male circumcision, or genital reconstruction) on a child, but I can also see valid reasons why parents might feel it's best to do so (I think the reasons are best for reconstruction, okay for circumcision, and not the best for FGM, but I do see where they are coming from in all three). In principle, I think that society (and governments) should stop short of actually outlawing a practice it finds repugnant, and instead trying to influence parents through education, recommendations, and compromise (for example, by the AAP's not unreasonable move to suggest a compromise to FGM that has no real functional impact but still fulfils cultural/ritual desires). At the end of the day, it's awfully hard to legislate what a parent can do to their child, anyways.

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Originally Posted by GGT

No, it's not genital mutilation to repair a genetic abnormality or ambiguous genitalia. It's considered "medically necessary" for the healthy formation of gender identity, and should be allowed. As time goes by physicians are reluctant to do gender reassignment surgery in infants and often delay it until they're a bit older. It's a complicate process, not to be taken lightly, and they don't.

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I call BS. You could make the same argument about 'medical necessity' for circumcision or FGM. Either it's okay to do to a kid or it's not.

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Foreskins aren't abnormal and don't produce mental health or identity disorders in adulthood.

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Oh? You don't think a kid in a highly circumcised community won't have psychological issues? What about a woman in a place where it is expected to have some variant of FGM, and a huge stigma is attached to a 'whole' woman?

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That's why (over time) surgery is delayed. Sometimes the neonate's hormones take months to dissipate, and swollen vulva shrinks. (Anyone who's had a baby girl knows their vulva is "swollen" because of the mother's hormones.) Simple chromosomal blood tests don't always make things so clear-cut.

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They aren't delayed until an age of informed consent, which is all that matters here.

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What I'm asking is how and why infant male foreskin cutting is still considered "socially normal", when all the medicine and studies show there's no medical necessity.

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Medical necessity has nothing to do with social norms.

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As a Jew, would you please expand on that for me? [Similar bits... snipped]

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*yawns* I didn't come to this thread to talk about this, nor is it your business what my religious beliefs or knowledge may be. Either look it up yourself or find someone else to bother. I came here to broaden the question. This is really a debate about how much parents can irrevocably change their children before the age of consent, often with serious ramifications for their future. I think that it's not as clear-cut as either side has been suggesting. I don't really give a fuck about the male circumcision debate here - I think that the extreme of FGM is a much more worthwhile discussion. I'm not so sure it should be outlawed.

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I disagree. Reconstruction genital surgery on infants is done to repair anomalies.

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Define 'anomaly'. Certainly it's not 'normal', but it's not 'normal' to have a foreskin as a child in some countries. You're imposing an external value system on the way a child is born. If all their parts work, why change it in a surgery with potentially huge side effects?

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Originally Posted by Hazir

I call bullshit; you can't possibly compare situations. In one the procedure is based on the condition of the subject. In the other the procedure has no relationship whatsoever to the condition of the subject but is executed on the basis of the subject's gender.

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Oh, please. The 'condition' of the subject is that their genital anatomy doesn't look normal (even if it functions just fine).

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Originally Posted by wiggin

OMG does no one have a shred of training in logic or rhetoric?

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Actually, i do.

However, i misread your post and didnt notice you had put "reconstruction". Even the second time i read it i nearly missed it. My mistake.