Geopolitical impact of Brexit

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

I want them gone while laughing at their hypocrisy. I'd think you could relate to that.

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No, I wanted you to vote and I wanted you gone. Laughing I do at your puffed up self-importance.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

No, I wanted you to vote and I wanted you gone. Laughing I do at your puffed up self-importance.

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Sounds exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Yep that does sound like something cranky old farts like to do :o

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Or politically obsessive geeks.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Make up your mind man; you want them gone or you want to whine about them having a vote?

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You haven't stopped griping about the Brits actually voting to leave despite wanting them gone for a very long time.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

You haven't stopped griping about the Brits actually voting to leave despite wanting them gone for a very long time.

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Can you read at all? I am ecstatic about their out-vote. I still can't believe we were this lucky. It's literally like a dream come true. And if you could read you would have known. I love to take the piss out of the chipper Brexitanian in here, but that's hardly me griping about them sodding off. And it's not just Randblade and his ilk I'm happy to see the backs of, it's also the remoaning lot that somehow think 'the Europeans' should have been more accomodating.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Can you read at all? I am ecstatic about their out-vote. I still can't believe we were this lucky. It's literally like a dream come true. And if you could read you would have known. I love to take the piss out of the chipper Brexitanian in here, but that's hardly me griping about them sodding off. And it's not just Randblade and his ilk I'm happy to see the backs of, it's also the remoaning lot that somehow think 'the Europeans' should have been more accomodating.

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I can read, as a matter of fact. You do an amazing amount of bitching for someone who always claims he's crowing about it. You may have wanted them gone but you didn't seem to like it happening by them rejecting being part of the EU anymore. Doesn't feed that ego the way you kicking THEM out would have, I expect.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

I can read, as a matter of fact. You do an amazing amount of bitching for someone who always claims he's crowing about it. You may have wanted them gone but you didn't seem to like it happening by them rejecting being part of the EU anymore. Doesn't feed that ego the way you kicking THEM out would have, I expect.

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Let's try some facts for a change; june 23rd 2016 they voted to fuck off. A good 9 months later they still haven't reached for the door handle. What they have done is blabbering about what they want on the outside and how they will call the shots. And that's the side desperate to get out.

Tonedeaf people like you though, with funny pre-conceptions of what i think about Brexit, fail to see that where at one point I may have extreme in my desire to see them gone, today am positively main stream when I say it's time for them to sod off.

When we laugh at them that's because that's what one is prone to do when the pompous start talking utter nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Let's try some facts for a change; june 23rd 2016 they voted to fuck off. A good 9 months later they still haven't reached for the door handle. What they have done is blabbering about what they want on the outside and how they will call the shots. And that's the side desperate to get out.

Tonedeaf people like you though, with funny pre-conceptions of what i think about Brexit, fail to see that where at one point I may have extreme in my desire to see them gone, today am positively main stream when I say it's time for them to sod off.

When we laugh at them that's because that's what one is prone to do when the pompous start talking utter nonsense.

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There are no preconceptions here, you've been vocal for years. It is true that you're more mainstream now, but that isn't from you changing in the slightest. Rather it's from everyone else acting like the Brits actually voting to leave was like them collectively pissing in your cereal. Such a strong undercurrent of "how dare they," in all of your guys' posts now.

There you go again.

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Originally Posted by Flixy

I'm assuming the reason is that circumstances changed substantially compared to the time of the last vote.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

The Scots voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. So when the UK as a whole voted to leave, Sturgeon is using that as the platform to launch a second referendum under the banner of an independent Scotland applying to rejoin the EU, breaking the Union, and leaving England, Wales and Northern Ireland out of the EU.


Immature is one word. Pathetic is another. Stubborn and close-minded are two more.

To keep calling referendums until you get the vote you want is like a spoilt five-year old holding her breath until her stupid parents give her what she wants.

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Indeed the circumstances have changed. What I find particularly galling is the idea that a "stay" vote was (in Sturgeon's argument) conditional on the Scotts and English having no disagreements forever and ever. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Aimless

There you go again.

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You want me to be specific? Hazir, Khend, you. You got way more hostile as soon as that referendum actually passed, Aimless. And you've persisted with that attitude since.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Indeed the circumstances have changed. What I find particularly galling is the idea that a "stay" vote was (in Sturgeon's argument) conditional on the Scotts and English having no disagreements forever and ever. :rolleyes:

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Sturgeon is a nationalist. Any and all arguments that can be twisted to justify seeking Independence she will feel free to use. Logic has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Sturgeon is a nationalist. Any and all arguments that can be twisted to justify seeking Independence she will feel free to use. Logic has nothing to do with it.

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Yes indeed. Brexit is an excuse, rather than a legitimate reason.

It is both.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

There are no preconceptions here, you've been vocal for years. It is true that you're more mainstream now, but that isn't from you changing in the slightest. Rather it's from everyone else acting like the Brits actually voting to leave was like them collectively pissing in your cereal. Such a strong undercurrent of "how dare they," in all of your guys' posts now.

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And none of it would be related with the utterly ludicrous ideas about the future relations as expressed in the opinions of leading politicians in the UK of course. You're seriously a joke in your faux non-taking sides role. I don't quite know what makes you such a bum buddy with the Brexitanians, but it could be that your media never looked beyond London when trying to report from Europe.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

Yes indeed. Brexit is an excuse, rather than a legitimate reason.

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That depends on your valuation of Brexit itself. If being part of the EU actually is a core value in Scotland then a referendum would be fully legitimate. If it's not then Brexit is just a convenient pretext. On face value the vast majority of the Scotts want to stay in the EU. So it's up to Unionists now to prove that this is less relevant to Scotts than being part of the UK. You may or agree with Sturgeon or not, but it is she who has the numbers at this moment in time.

Considering that the SNP Policy is shifting day by day between "we will stay in the EU" (impossible) to "We will rejoin the EU" or "we will join EFTA/EEA) and now "don't know we will announce in time" I think it's abundantly clear it's a pretext. If EU membership was so critical there'd be nothing to debate.

But since over a third of SNP voters want to Leave the EU and Sturgeon doesn't want to alienate them there is.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

And none of it would be related with the utterly ludicrous ideas about the future relations as expressed in the opinions of leading politicians in the UK of course.

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And what do those matter except how they'll ensure you'll get what you want?

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You're seriously a joke in your faux non-taking sides role. I don't quite know what makes you such a bum buddy with the Brexitanians, but it could be that your media never looked beyond London when trying to report from Europe.

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I'm taking a side on here. Against the massive hostility directed at the Brits for daring to vote Leave. I don't have a dog in the fight which is why the sudden turn toward massive vitriol by almost every non-Brit on here has been so shocking. You I expect (it's completely irrational considering your stated desires, but that's not unusual for you) Khend sure. Aimless was a surprise. Loki and the US left-leaners here were a surprise. I was expecting reactions closer to Tim's.

That would be because you are ill-informed and yet have an opinion on the matter. If you had bothered you could have predicted the way things are going now. But what's worse, you still don't bother to get informed and try to rationalize your sticking to your old partisan opinons.

First it's your conviction I am excessively hostile towards Brits that causes the harsh tone of my posts about the issue, now it's everybody being excessively hostile. The fact that you don't even consider the problem could be caused by the other side is telling.

Now to lift the veil just enough not to shatter your brain; the reason why everybody who's not a Brit is aggressive towards Brexitanians is because they have been told for God knows how long some things are not on the menu, and they are still acting as if they are, as if our stated position bears no relevance to the actual situation.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

That would be because you are ill-informed and yet have an opinion on the matter. If you had bothered you could have predicted the way things are going now. But what's worse, you still don't bother to get informed and try to rationalize your sticking to your old partisan opinons.

First it's your conviction I am excessively hostile towards Brits that causes the harsh tone of my posts about the issue, now it's everybody being excessively hostile. The fact that you don't even consider the problem could be caused by the other side is telling.

Now to lift the veil just enough not to shatter your brain; the reason why everybody who's not a Brit is aggressive towards Brexitanians is because they have been told for God knows how long some things are not on the menu, and they are still acting as if they are, as if our stated position bears no relevance to the actual situation.

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You mean like how we have been told that the EU is unreformable from the inside, yet we're still in demanding it changes to how we want it to be? Oh wait, no we've given up on that and are quitting ...

So I guess you mean like how we were told that the Four Freedoms of the Single Market are indivisible yet we're seeking still to divide them while staying in the Single Market? Oh no, we've ruled out staying in the Single Market ...

We're changing our situation to adapt to the fact you don't want to change, so your aggression is not explained by that. And since the aggression has only come from others since we decided to give up on your project rather than demanding it be changed to our liking any more then the opposite of what you're claiming is the truth.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

That would be because you are ill-informed and yet have an opinion on the matter. If you had bothered you could have predicted the way things are going now. But what's worse, you still don't bother to get informed and try to rationalize your sticking to your old partisan opinons.

First it's your conviction I am excessively hostile towards Brits that causes the harsh tone of my posts about the issue, now it's everybody being excessively hostile. The fact that you don't even consider the problem could be caused by the other side is telling.

Now to lift the veil just enough not to shatter your brain; the reason why everybody who's not a Brit is aggressive towards Brexitanians is because they have been told for God knows how long some things are not on the menu, and they are still acting as if they are, as if our stated position bears no relevance to the actual situation.

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Loki, Aimless, and the others who weren't already unrelentingly hostile switched to vitriol the very day the news Brexit won the vote was reported. And it does not and will never matter one goddamned whether people act like things which "aren't on the menu" are still open to negotiation because if they're "not on the menu" then it doesn't matter, they're not going to get them. That's a post hoc rationalization for the way you're already acting.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

I'm taking a side on here. Against the massive hostility directed at the Brits for daring to vote Leave. I don't have a dog in the fight which is why the sudden turn toward massive vitriol by almost every non-Brit on here has been so shocking. You I expect (it's completely irrational considering your stated desires, but that's not unusual for you) Khend sure. Aimless was a surprise. Loki and the US left-leaners here were a surprise. I was expecting reactions closer to Tim's.

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Because you fail to see it as part of a broader trend of anti-expertise, anti-globalist nativism that's been embroiling the Western world, and to which Brexit provided renewed vigor. The problem was less the vote itself (dumb, but tolerable) than the tactics used by the Leave supporters, tactics that would be put to good use by the Trump and Cruz camps here, and now being adopted in Italy, the Netherlands, and much of East/Central Europe. Brexit was the nativist version of the Tunisian uprising.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

Loki, Aimless, and the others who weren't already unrelentingly hostile switched to vitriol the very day the news Brexit won the vote was reported. And it does not and will never matter one goddamned whether people act like things which "aren't on the menu" are still open to negotiation because if they're "not on the menu" then it doesn't matter, they're not going to get them. That's a post hoc rationalization for the way you're already acting.

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Congratulations on the digging in. It must be so nice to have a plausible explanation for everything and never have to think about anything.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

You mean like how we have been told that the EU is unreformable from the inside, yet we're still in demanding it changes to how we want it to be? Oh wait, no we've given up on that and are quitting ...

So I guess you mean like how we were told that the Four Freedoms of the Single Market are indivisible yet we're seeking still to divide them while staying in the Single Market? Oh no, we've ruled out staying in the Single Market ...

We're changing our situation to adapt to the fact you don't want to change, so your aggression is not explained by that. And since the aggression has only come from others since we decided to give up on your project rather than demanding it be changed to our liking any more then the opposite of what you're claiming is the truth.

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Even if this is all true; why are we still waiting for notification?

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Originally Posted by Loki

Because you fail to see it as part of a broader trend of anti-expertise, anti-globalist nativism that's been embroiling the Western world, and to which Brexit provided renewed vigor. The problem was less the vote itself (dumb, but tolerable) than the tactics used by the Leave supporters, tactics that would be put to good use by the Trump and Cruz camps here, and now being adopted in Italy, the Netherlands, and much of East/Central Europe. Brexit was the nativist version of the Tunisian uprising.

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Except it's completely different. Brexit won by convincing a majority of the population unlike to date any of those alternatives you named.

Brexit won with the support of many experts and many experts who were against it have already been proven wrong.

Which leads to the fact that the much maligned "anti expertise" quote was actually that people have ‘had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong’ a not unreasonable position.

Which was correct. https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/...about-experts/

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Even if this is all true; why are we still waiting for notification?

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Because the Remain-supporting government resigned before triggering it?

Because Article 50 requires a nation's own constitutional requirements to be completed and those were only completed in recent days?

Because we had a court-case from people and devolved governments trying to stymie it being triggered?

Because Sturgeon chose the day of Article 50 legislation completing passage through Parliament to grandstand on her parties cause?

Because your politicians have asked us to wait until after the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome?

Nobody has asked you to wait. Yet you keep us waiting. It's also bloody annoying your government went from immediate notification promises to taking 9 months to figure out your constitutional rules. One of the many things you irresponsibly didn't think about in advance.

In fact, they were asked to hurry, so if they were just trying to do as they were asked they would have made the notification ages ago.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Nobody has asked you to wait. Yet you keep us waiting. It's also bloody annoying your government went from immediate notification promises to taking 9 months to figure out your constitutional rules. One of the many things you irresponsibly didn't think about in advance.

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Cameron naively thought he would get a good deal and naively thought he would easily win the referendum. He was wrong.

The only difference with May is that she's after the referendum. She also thinks she can get a good deal on British conditions. Just as wrong as Cameron.

The difference is she is prepared to walk away, Cameron wasn't. Rule one of negotiations is be prepared to walk away empty handed.

She's prepared to walk away; and thus force the hardest Brexit thinkable on the 48% of her people who don't want any Brexit at all. Seems to me an obvious case of a democratic deficit.

Not at all there is a mandate to negotiate Brexit. If you're not prepared to walk away then you guarantee the most one sided deal so she is being mature. What realistic alternative is there? The irony is that if Cameron had been prepared to walk away and back the Leave Campaign he would probably got a much better deal so there'd be no Brexit now. I'm far from the only one I know who swung from Remain to Leave due to the failure to get any meaningful reform (confirming we'd never get it).

Either way there's an election due in 2020 a year after we Brexit so if the deal isn't acceptable we can elect a new government who can start new negotiations.

So, what does it mean if you walk away? You realize that for your plan B you still need our consent don't you?

Our consent for what?

If we walk away then two years after we give Article 50 our membership lapses. That's the law.

Your plan B is WTO rules. If you are walking away without an agreement we may not bother to let you.

You realistically can't stop us.

We are already WTO members in our own right. Sure in theory there is the WTO schedule issue but that exists for many nations including all who joined the EU from 95 onwards.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

You realistically can't stop us.

We are already WTO members in our own right. Sure in theory there is the WTO schedule issue but that exists for many nations including all who joined the EU from 95 onwards.

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No, you're not.

http://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing...us-post-brexit
http://www.economist.com/news/financ...ficult-process

If you walk away without a deal, we can't only stop you but we will stop you.

Seems the clock starts ticking in little over a week.

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Originally Posted by Loki

No, you're not.

http://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing...us-post-brexit
http://www.economist.com/news/financ...ficult-process

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Your first link has the issue I mentioned. The EU hasn't addressed its own schedule for any of the accession states since 1995. Now it simply claims €72.4bn of agricultural subsidies, despite the fact the agreed schedule limit is actually 67.2bn. The second link reiterates the point that "the WTO is not as you might think" which is why such a fudge works and why a UK fudge would be possible too.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Your first link has the issue I mentioned. The EU hasn't addressed its own schedule for any of the accession states since 1995. Now it simply claims €72.4bn of agricultural subsidies, despite the fact the agreed schedule limit is actually 67.2bn. The second link reiterates the point that "the WTO is not as you might think" which is why such a fudge works and why a UK fudge would be possible too.

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The UK will get WTO concessions only if everyone else agrees. Including the EU.