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You have successfully identified (and admitted) your problem. Congrats! They say that's the first step.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
And thus, communism is means through which to achieve maximum civilization, which has resulted in the unparalleled works of art, culture and wealth which we associate with civilization.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Hey, waitaminute...
Okay, you understand how to have civilization without government. Why are you keeping it a secret? Share your knowledge with us. :popcorn:
It will cost you, your life!
I think Cain meant is just because you have a government does not necessarily mean you have a (worthwhile) civilization.Quote:
Originally Posted by Being
But...I could be putting words in his mouth (cause he wont let me put anything else).
Ah ... observing how demonisation of words take effect is such a dispiriting sensation.
You know, its a little shameful to try and score points when I'm hanging it out with honesty. :down:Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenCain
Except that actual communist nations have utterly failed to achieve these things while the US and the rest of the West, with sensible (and not) government investments, have achieved the greatest heights of civilization humanity has ever seen. And if they had all been Libertarian, none of it would have happened.Quote:
And thus, communism is means through which to achieve maximum civilization, which has resulted in the unparalleled works of art, culture and wealth which we associate with civilization.
The *first* step toward civilization is a government. Right? I'm all for thinking out of the box but I can't think of a way humans can have a civilization without a government. Now, if the argument is about what *kind* of government we ought to have, that's different. And in that vein, I fail to see how the US or the rest of the West could have achieved what we have in the last century without the government making big investments in the infrastructure of civilization. Now, if the answer to that is it couldn't, and it shouldn't, and fuck all this civilization stuff we have, its not worth taking my money for taxes, then fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veldan Rath
:haha: Have you asked him? Seriously. Have you asked him?Quote:
But...I could be putting words in his mouth (cause he wont let me put anything else).
That's part of it... but the other part is the actual literal meaning of the words (I know, a departure from my usual M.O.) - civilization does not require government.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veldan Rath
No it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
That's not what I'm doing, but that's not shameful anyway.
Hey, it's like you figured out what I was saying with my sarcasm.... all without knowing it!Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Wrong. And, I struggle to see how you're "thinking outside the box" if this is what you've come up with so far...Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Well, think of the functions performed by government... and then think of how that might be (or even has been) achieved without an actual government imposing those functions.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Yup. And I don't do that (with men) before marriage. The type of marriage that comes with immigration status... not the wimpy state gay-marriages we have today. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Besides, I'm not really the marriage type... if I figure I'd end up cheating on woman, imagine how fast I figure I'd end up cheating on a man!
What are you calling a government Cain? If there are two people in a civilization, one will dominate the other. Do you consider it to be governance for the dominant one to order the other to collect firewood?
There's the $20 question - what's the definition of "government?"
And no, I don't consider a slave owner to be a government... I was using the word in the sense that we generally use it today.
China has a government. The US has a government. NK has a government. Somalia... doesn't (well, technically, it's got 4 or 5 fighting over which one gets to be the government, but close enough for this discussion).