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Originally Posted by Illusions
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Originally Posted by DecoyMilk
The costs of healthcare in the US have effectively been fiscalized now. The government can't afford not to start tackling the current level and/or rise thereof. Not acting will automatically lead to really unsustainable deficits.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
Let there be no mistake about it; regardless what logo the letters come with, you're all effectively on Medicare now.
Yeah, I've felt that way about mandated auto insurance, too. I don't have the option of opting-out of driving a car. It is like mafia protection, almost extortion, or paying a bookie who keeps changing the odds of doing business with a loan shark. :bulb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
There are some positive things in the bill, like removing pre-existing conditions and removing life time caps, and the new interstate exchanges. Whether or not it makes insurance more affordable, we'll see.
There's also one part requiring insurers to cover some outpatient testing, that might benefit people (because it's expensive) but our premiums will reflect that. My plan is pretty horrible, but I don't want elective testing covered....I want outpatient services like chemotherapy or physical therapy covered.
Other questions: what if you don't buy a plan covering organ or bone marrow transplants, then you need one? Does someone help you move into the High Risk group plans and cover it retroactively, or do you just move into Medicare?
:confused:
*The Baby Killer Bill*
Procedural and philosophical. I'm disappointed the pro-life anti-abortion legislators tried to use this as a wedge issue. (R) from Texas shouting out "It's a baby killer" during Stupak's comments. Stupak and others using abortion as a big stick in the debates of general health care reform, and federal funding. Quotes from Catholic bishops vs nuns, the Hyde amendment, the executive order, the whole shebang.
:(
As opposed to the total reliability of personal anecdotes?Quote:
I’ve been an analysis for long enough to know that numbers can tell be massaged to tell any story, and they can even be made up as well.
Sorry, I gotta chime in, because I feel this is a really bad way to look at this. Using this logic, you should just follow people blindly no matter how bad their ideas are.Quote:
Originally Posted by DecoyMilk
I know, I can't wait for my unemployed friends who supported this to wake up and have to ask their parents for a bailout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusions
But sorry for your personal plight on this one.
This article expresses a reasonable take on moving forward.
But there are things that can be done, and here are some early priorities:
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1) One of the worst things about the Democrats' plan is the method of financing: an increase in tax on high-income earners. At first that tax bites only a very small number, but the new taxes will surely be applied to larger and larger portions of the American population over time.
Republicans champion lower taxes and faster economic growth. We need to start thinking now about how to get rid of these new taxes on work, saving and investment -- if necessary by finding other sources of revenue, including carbon taxes.
2) We should quit defending employment-based health care. The leading Republican spokesman in the House on these issues, Rep. Paul Ryan, repeatedly complained during floor debate that the Obama plan would "dump" people out of employer-provided care into the exchanges. He said that as if it were a bad thing.
Yet free-market economists from Milton Friedman onward have identified employer-provided care as the original sin of American health care. Employers choose different policies for employees than those employees would choose for themselves. The cost is concealed.
Wages are depressed without employees understanding why. The day when every employee in America gets his or her insurance through an exchange will be a good day for market economics. It's true that the exchanges are subsidized. So is employer-provided care, to the tune of almost $200 billion a year.
3) We should call for reducing regulation of the policies sold inside the health care exchanges. The Democrats' plans require every policy sold within the exchanges to meet certain strict conditions.
American workers will lose the option of buying more basic but cheaper plans. It will be as if the only cable packages available were those that include all the premium channels. No bargains in that case. Republicans should press for more scope for insurers to cut prices if they think they can offer an attractive product that way.
4) The Democratic plan requires businesses with payrolls more than $500,000 to buy health insurance for their workers or face fines of $2,000 per worker. Could there be a worse time to heap this new mandate on smaller employers? Health insurance comes out of employee wages, plain and simple. Employers who do not offer health insurance must compete for labor against those who do -- and presumably pay equivalent wages for equivalent work.
Uninsured employees have now through the exchanges been provided an easy and even subsidized way to buy their own coverage. There is no justification for the small-business fine: Republicans should press for repeal.
I agree with this part, didn't know Milton et al did too.Quote:
2) We should quit defending employment-based health care. The leading Republican spokesman in the House on these issues, Rep. Paul Ryan, repeatedly complained during floor debate that the Obama plan would "dump" people out of employer-provided care into the exchanges. He said that as if it were a bad thing.
Yet free-market economists from Milton Friedman onward have identified employer-provided care as the original sin of American health care. Employers choose different policies for employees than those employees would choose for themselves. The cost is concealed.
Wages are depressed without employees understanding why. The day when every employee in America gets his or her insurance through an exchange will be a good day for market economics. It's true that the exchanges are subsidized. So is employer-provided care, to the tune of almost $200 billion a year.
If we're going to keep this employer based system, I propose we start making all federal employees pay 100% of their premiums. Currently congress pays ~20% and We The People pick up the other 80%. Once they're out of office, they should lose those health benefits, and be forced to shop around just like other workers in 'the real world'. Maybe then we'd see some real changes. :up:
Ha ... I'm so disturbingly entertained...
http://www.11alive.com/news/news_sto...42036&catid=40
Now all the other states will try to copy Georgia.
But, as usual, it's the comments that explain why I keep going back to that local news website, even though I refuse to watch their broadcasts anymore because they have decided that people don't actually want to see news when they watch the news.
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Is this health care bill communism, or is it socialism?
It is both. While many more will now be guaranteed health care, anyone who now owns or has ever owned a firearm will be denied care. Also, anyone over the age of 62, or who is in any other way considered a drain on our society regardless of age, such as Downs' Syndrome infants and children, will be denied care. Anyone who is a grandmother will automatically be denied care permanently. All unmarried girls under the age of 21 who become pregnant will be subject to mandatory abortion but will not be required to pay for it; federal abortion clinics will be funded by a new tax on families earning more than $96,000 per year. All Medicaid recipients will each be assigned a medical team to provide daily in-home doctor visits and round-the-clock nursing along with high-speed internet and big-screen TV.
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You know: it seems that some people are so Blind that they can't see the REAL result of this "reform". We are being told we must hand over part of our Freedom of Choice to the Government...the First Stop in a Socialist government!
The Founding Fathers intended for the Federal Government to have Limited powers, and to Serve the CITIZENS of this Country. Now, these yo-yos think they know better than the Founding Fathers!
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This is what people get when you dont worry about what the government does. First it was the patiot act the took away all our rights as citizens, now we are forced with this health care crap. This is what happens when you elect someone like obama! and believe me it will only get worse.Welcome to the UNITED SOCIALIST STATES OF AMERICA. A big thank you to the dumb asses that elected him.
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I don't know what is wrong with people. Do they not realize that this is best for all, especially children. I voted in the last major election and it seems that the people we voted far only care for themselves and not us. We sent them to Washington to do what is best for us, not their party. Come on people remember who sent you to Washington. Think about what is best for not just the people who have a job, but those who don't!!!!. They need your help to.
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Since when is it a "right" to have health care. The only right I've ever heard of in the constitution is the right of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
basmiles if you can't afford to feed, cloth, and provide health care for children then maybe the parents shouldn't have them. And yes I was out of work for a short time once and I still managed to support my family.
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Good Idea! All of the Liberals, Scalawags, Mooches, Bums, Crackheads, and Theives can leave our Beautiful South..and we will have our own Country again!
Southeners come in all Races, and we are ALL Tired of the Federal Government BULL. This Nation was Founded by God-Fearing men, who strove to insure that the Rights of the People supercede the rights of the Federal Government.
Health Care is not a "right", just like Driving a Vehicle or owning a Home is Not a "Right"! Our Nation was Founded on Principles of Government of the People and for the People...remember a Yankee President named Abe said that.
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Something of this magnitude should have been voted on by all the people, not the elected previledged, well to do.
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How can it be said that nothing was under the table? Look at that executive order that STILL needs to be signed, is not law, and can pulled by the president at any time. Stupak's district got over 700k in three airport grants on the 19th. Tell me that wasn't "under the table"! Look at all those undecided that ended up voting "yes" research what their family or district got in the last week or two.
Comment on article about healthcare bill:
It seems that this bill may be good for many Americans.Quote:
First and fore most, I’m glad that this health care bill has passed. One being that my partner was hospitalized last year with a heart condition. Luckily, the doctors was able to find the problem and fix it. In return due to being denied health insurance from Pacific Source of Oregon, Kasier Permanente, Oregon health plan, Aging with disability of Oregon, plus many other health plans; we got stuck in a hard place with a 50,000.00 dollar medical bill. Trust me it’s 50,000.00 dollars and we have proof of all the denial letter and the medical bills. On top of that, due to his job not offering health insurance because he’s consider a on call person, we had nothing.
Just imagine having 50,000.00 dollars in medical bills. Luckily, a couple of the hospital’s wrote off some of the bills, but we’re still getting collection letter’s telling us we need to pay it.
Guess what, we don’t have that kind of money laying around. With our combined annual salaries we make just above 20,000.00-30,000.00 annual if that. I’m 23 year’s old and he’s 26. We kept thinking that a problem wouldn’t occur and that he’ll find a job in time that will have health insurance, but guess what…. it’s been over a year and he still has a on call job while having to collect unemployment when he’s not working. He’s constantly looking for a job, but with little success he still hasn’t found one. So, he’s keeping the on call job for now until the economy picks back up.
Well to end this little story, we decided to do our research and was able to sign up with the Oregon Medical Insurance Pool with a 1,500.00 dollar deductible and a separate 1,000.00 dollar deductible for prescription/drug coverage. We have been lucky lately that there hasn’t been problems and the medication that was prescribed by one of the doctors are helping, but overall we have to wait 6 months for the pre-existing clause to end to finally use the insurance. The monthly premiums are 290.00 dollars a month and we can’t use it for anything that is consider pre-existing until the 6 month’s is up or end up paying the full cost with the possibility of being denied and retroactive back to when it was first issued. The medication cost us roughly 60.00 dollars a month with a Walgreen’s drug saver’s card.
But for the people complaining and bickering about this health care reform being passed…. YOUR SELFISH!!! I would be glad to pay some sort of tax just so we can have health insurance. In this tough economy and having a health condition that needs addressing; I can’t believe how much people bicker about this being passed.
It’s not the end of the world and I know that there is going to be problems with this bill, but it’s a start. If you think that we can ask his parent’s for the money to pay this, think again they already said no and it’s not their problem.
I’m glad the democrats finally passed this and I’m glad that he’s finally be able to get subsidies to help pay for the cost. With the rising prices in food, gas, housing, medication, health insurance and all other day to day need I’m glad that this bill has finally passed.
I’ll definitely be voting the democrats back in office and I’ll definitely be telling everyone about our situation.
PS. We are still getting medical bills as of 3/23/2010. We have 4-5 months left before he can finally use the health insurance that he has just in time before the medication that is prescribed needs to be re-prescribed.
Combined annual income of $30,000 doesn't qualify for Medicaid in Oregon? :confused:
He be signing: http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN.aspx
Signing with multiple pens, even.
Just so I don't get accused of being biased. The other side's argument. Try to keep a straight face.
http://www.thefoxnation.com/sarah-pa...o-love-america
The comments make me sad.
Edit: Didn't watch the video yet. Do I want to? Probably not...
OK, this interstate commerce interpretation....seems to me if the challengers get their way, it just opens up the Public Option then, which they also fought. "Forcing" people to purchase things can get muddy. Back in the 80s my employer had a private pension plan, and they had tried to opt-out of SS deductions. Went to state supreme court and lost: feds can mandate paying into SS, whether we'd use it or not.
Maybe it's a stretch, but I could see an interpretation that ALL health care is tied to private insurance and IS commerce, so we are required to follow federal mandates? :noob:
I'd like to know where all this rage was when we re-took Fannie and Freddie into the government's caring embrace? And when we took over a large chunk of GM? And when we nationalized AIG's debt?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
Don't forget the bank bailouts.
I guess rescuing capitalism isn't socialistic. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by GGT
No one told them to rage, or anything to be enraged about. A lot of people raging about this probably have no idea or no clear one of what actually happened yesterday, or what is going to happen because of this bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Being
Whatever happened to the idea that illegal immigrants should allowed to purchase insurance in the US? Or will this ramp up into an immigration reform frenzy? :eek:
http://apps.facebook.com/vote_no_obamacare/
The outrage is all so very disturbing. And so many of the people screaming don't even understand what they are against, just that their talk radio masters said that it is bad.
And it's got Ronnie's picture with a quote about SSSocialized medicine! Guess they don't count Medicare, huh.
:flail:
I've read some transcripts from radio commentators etc who insinuate this was good for illegal immigrants and conversely bad for tax-paying legal WASP citizens; Jesus from Mehico is for this, Jesus from Nasareth isn't, and so it goesQuote:
Originally Posted by GGT
I prefer to direct my rage at the fact that these people have better access to healthcare than I do.
The problem is we can't tell who is trolling and who is serious...its pretty sad that some of these people have to be serious though.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
Edit: NVM, realized something worse, and they're going to vote based on their ignorance too! Yay!
I like the dramatic opening!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
Here's a little anti-rage sentiment...
How do you think the legislation will affect Americans living abroad? If you’re an expat, how do you think the legislation may affect you?
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Dan
Brazil
March 23rd, 2010
8:48 am
It means that I may be able to afford to move back to the States some day. At present, having to give up coverage in my current country and look for an individual policy in the U.S. is one of the things keeping me an expatriate.
Email bulletin from White House.
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What Happens Next
Since the House of Representatives voted to pass health reform legislation on Sunday night, the legislative process and its political impact have been the focus of all the newspapers and cable TV pundits.
Outside of DC, however, many Americans are trying to cut through the chatter and get to the substance of reform with a simple question: "What does health insurance reform actually mean for me?" To help, we've put together some of the key benefits from health insurance reform.
Let's start with how health insurance reform will expand and strengthen coverage:
- This year, children with pre-existing conditions can no longer be denied health insurance coverage. Once the new health insurance exchanges begin in the coming years, pre-existing condition discrimination will become a thing of the past for everyone.
- This year, health care plans will allow young people to remain on their parents' insurance policy up until their 26th birthday.
- This year, insurance companies will be banned from dropping people from coverage when they get sick, and they will be banned from implementing lifetime caps on coverage. This year, restrictive annual limits on coverage will be banned for certain plans. Under health insurance reform, Americans will be ensured access to the care they need.
- This year, adults who are uninsured because of pre-existing conditions will have access to affordable insurance through a temporary subsidized high-risk pool.
- In the next fiscal year, the bill increases funding for community health centers, so they can treat nearly double the number of patients over the next five years.
- This year, we'll also establish an independent commission to advise on how best to build the health care workforce and increase the number of nurses, doctors and other professionals to meet our country's needs. Going forward, we will provide $1.5 billion in funding to support the next generation of doctors, nurses and other primary care practitioners -- on top of a $500 million investment from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.
Health insurance reform will also curb some of the worst insurance industry practices and strengthen consumer protections:
- This year, this bill creates a new, independent appeals process that ensures consumers in new private plans have access to an effective process to appeal decisions made by their insurer.
- This year, discrimination based on salary will be outlawed. New group health plans will be prohibited from establishing any eligibility rules for health care coverage that discriminate in favor of higher-wage employees.
- Beginning this fiscal year, this bill provides funding to states to help establish offices of health insurance consumer assistance in order to help individuals in the process of filing complaints or appeals against insurance companies.
- Starting January 1, 2011, insurers in the individual and small group market will be required to spend 80 percent of their premium dollars on medical services. Insurers in the large group market will be required to spend 85 percent of their premium dollars on medical services. Any insurers who don't meet those thresholds will be required to provide rebates to their policyholders.
- Starting in 2011, this bill helps states require insurance companies to submit justification for requested premium increases. Any company with excessive or unjustified premium increases may not be able to participate in the new health insurance exchanges.
Reform immediately begins to lower health care costs for American families and small businesses:
Thank you,
- This year, small businesses that choose to offer coverage will begin to receive tax credits of up to 35 percent of premiums to help make employee coverage more affordable.
- This year, new private plans will be required to provide free preventive care: no co-payments and no deductibles for preventive services. And beginning January 1, 2011, Medicare will do the same.
- This year, this bill will provide help for early retirees by creating a temporary re-insurance program to help offset the costs of expensive premiums for employers and retirees age 55-64.
- This year, this bill starts to close the Medicare Part D 'donut hole' by providing a $250 rebate to Medicare beneficiaries who hit the gap in prescription drug coverage. And beginning in 2011, the bill institutes a 50% discount on prescription drugs in the 'donut hole.'
Nancy-Ann DeParle
Director, White House Office of Health Reform
NYT has a really good synopsis of the bill as is alongside expected changes.
Proposed Changes in the Final Health Care Bill
Note the navigation menu on the left.
Q: Why are American Indians exempt?
Indians were killed by Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Their property was reposessed by Americans.
Their buffalos which is what they used to make a living, were killed by Americans.
Stupid comments are stupid, but it's really unwise and arrogant to treat this as a "ignorant racist evil masses" kind of situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
Health reform had broad support, and poll after poll shows that support evaporated on the contents of this bill, the narrow partisan majority used to pass it and the methods of passing it.
Sorry if I sound testy, I just have a lot of friends in person who are taking an attitude that people who opposed this are somehow stupid Klansmen.
This is at least the 2nd time you've used this remark to brush off the way these people are acting. Instead of bitching about the group image, after the fact, you guys should probably considering retaking your party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
Who here said a word about racist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
I said the same thing in 2003 when people ridiculed some anti-war protesters for hurling insults at various leaders. I may have thought their ideas were wrong, even sometimes moronic, but I didn't use moronic behavior to distract from the poll numbers about how people felt on the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Also, it's not my party, I'm not a Republican.
I was projecting, sorry. Once again, I was using what you said to highlight something I've seen personally. It gets frustrating to be around people who think this is an awesome idea, don't understand anything about the bill but thinks anyone who disagrees with it is a brainwashed idiot who might just hate Obama because he's half black.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
Which is admittedly dumb! But when the official response of the Pubbies is http://www.gop.com/firepelosi/ ,wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
Both sides seem to consist of straw-manning morons!
I read a nice thought elsewhere, about how this bill will be a lot like the Iraq war in the public opinion
Massively unpopular just before, and gaining wide-scale support right after. Now personally I would expect that people for the most part would require more direct and visible results to feel good about before deciding hey maybe this is what the bald eagle was talking about, but I realize I am very cynical and openly misanthropic.
Political grandstanding aside, I think it does speak to how fracked up it is to ram this kind of thing through with a slim partisan vote.
I do agree this will likely become more popular, mainly because the bill doesn't darken the skies and open the volcanoes of debt overnight. And there will of course be a media push in a few months/one year to highlight a couple of people who have benefited from their unaffordable subsidies.
Well, medical bills are the number one cause for personal bankruptcy in the United States, so it shouldn't be very hard to find people who benefit from this somehow! At least compared with how they would have fared previously. Would you say 'the media' does this high-lighting due to their left-wing slant, rather than trying to report facts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
(fraked)
Well Dread, the problem is that the opponents of the law have not entered into a constructive debate about a much needed health care reform and instead resorted to scare tactics. It also whipped up the more stupid part of the populace into a frenzy over it and then tried to coopt the 'organisation' that sprang from it. It makes it hard to not feel that the GOP's resistance had very little more to it than demonisation and nothing else.
And yes, this was pretty big legislation, relevant to a lot of Americans, so doesn't it make you wonder why not a single Republican has voted in favour of it? If you want to blame anybody for the razorsharp victory of this flawed bill, maybe you should look at the other side.
(I am convinced that 'fraked' wouldn't sound like 'fracked')
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Originally Posted by Nessus
I will address both quickly to say that there is part media slant here, and part Republican inability to coalesce around alternatives. But on the media front I can't begin to tell you how many reporters, who have their own industry headaches, want a bailout of their industry. But health insurance will do as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Still, Hazir I think you are misinterpreting the fact that no Republicans voted for. This is a sign of the majority party not compromising, not the Republicans being obstructionist.
Our system works by generally making it easy for any member (regardless of party) to propose amendments to bills, instead of sit on the sidelines as "shadow" ministers, legislators, etc. After weeks of negotiations it became clear that the Democrat's idea of "bipartisanship" meant trying to shave off a few Republicans to the bill and then leaving it at that. When the contents of the bill became a financial and regulatory boondogle for Republicans, they weren't able to unite around the various Republican counterproposals. And they sure as hell couldn't introduce them because they were the minority party -- they don't set the agenda.
But there have been a number of solid proposals from Republians, with a lot of thought put into it by Congressman Paul Ryan, a Republican from Wisconsin. Not exactly a foaming at the mouth conservative state, mind you. http://www.house.gov/ryan/PCA/