Happy now BLM?

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Originally Posted by Loki

Lewk, I take it you don't criticize lone wolf terrorism since there's very little that can be done to stop it?

As for some obvious solutions to this other than mandatory body cameras and requirements to immediately release all footage? Fire cops after disciplinary infractions. It sounds silly, but it never happens. And we know that a vast majority of death by cop happens at the hands of cops with multiple infractions on their record. Discourage police departments from hiring cops who were fired from other departments. Charge cops who engage in violent behavior with civil rights violations. Encourage DAs to charge "bad cops" with crimes more frequently, even if grand juries continue to pretend it's still 1960s Mississippi. Mandate better arms training and retraining on a regular basis. Hold entire departments accountable for bad behavior from their members. Encourage community policing, which has been shown to sharply reduce bad behavior by cops.

Not that I expect most of those policies to be implemented, as they have to be done at the local level, where support for corrupt cops is at the greatest, but let's not pretend this is a problem without a solution.

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So lets get specific.

Firing cops for disciplinary issues. I can get behind this - where do you want the enforcement of this? You mention local level so are you suggesting local mayor's office go about legislating stricter rules for officers. Do you know what problem with this? Unions.

In regards to discouraging departments from hiring cops who had discipline issues elsewhere... I could see that turning ugly quick. One person's 'disciplinary' issue could actually be retaliation for doing the right thing and reporting on another cop. Wells Fargo (in a completely different industry yes) just had a story break about several individuals who appropriately used an ethics hotline and were fired for it. I'm not sure this is a good step.

Charging cops for civil rights violations? I'd like more details on who do you think should be bringing those charges and specifically in what scenarios.

Encouraging DAs to charge 'bad cops' with crimes - I can totally get behind this. Again though, that's for the individual voters to decide. Or are you suggesting DAs be replaced by a federal oversight agency? State agency?

Mandating better arms training seems like a good start though I have no idea what the required arms training actually is or knowledge enough to know if it would be sufficient.

Holding entire departments accountable for bad behavior from their members seems odd. Collective guilt doesn't make sense in almost all cases and then again... you have the union problem. I'm wondering if you think police unions (and other governmental worker unions) should simply not exist so you don't run into the problem. I don't want to put words in your mouth so I'll ask - is that a position you support?

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Originally Posted by Loki

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0e80b1ba22256

All sorts of isolated incidents mentioned there.

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I like links too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdDc...be&app=desktop

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Yeah sorry, not happening. I've explained myself over and over again but people don't break the law for just a few reasons. 1. Moral compass. 2. Cost/Benefit to them. If the person is not morally inclined to not do a crime the costs (or potential costs) are the only thing preventing the criminal from acting. Harsh sentences increase the costs and make it less likely for a crime to actually take place. Those that still do the crime will do less crime if they are dead or are locked away for a long period of time.

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You cheer even when no crime was being committed, when you think they had a criminal activity in their past, or just "looked" bad enough when the cops stop them then shoot them. You see no value in life, only property, and so you (and lots like you) give the police a pass on every flimsy pretext. So long as they're getting that, things aren't going to really change.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

You cheer even when no crime was being committed, when you think they had a criminal activity in their past, or just "looked" bad enough when the cops stop them then shoot them. You see no value in life, only property, and so you (and lots like you) give the police a pass on every flimsy pretext. So long as they're getting that, things aren't going to really change.

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I've never been in favor of polices shooting people who haven't done a crime. When they shot the guy trying to help the mentally ill patient I condemned it.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

You cheer even when no crime was being committed, when you think they had a criminal activity in their past, or just "looked" bad enough when the cops stop them then shoot them. You see no value in life, only property, and so you (and lots like you) give the police a pass on every flimsy pretext. So long as they're getting that, things aren't going to really change.

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I think it's important to remember that US police departments aren't just cheered on by members of the public that are like Lewkowski--they are full of police officers that are like Lewkowski. Whereas Lewk is anonymous and careful to not engage in overt racism, these officers proudly display their lack of basic decency both on duty and off, irl. and on social media. They are inveterate shitbags and I'm not sure you can teach these people. You might be able to get them to snitch on, punish or fire their own kind, but it's not likely. What you can do however is start working on recruiting better people and training them well enough that the next generation of cops doesn't end up being full of shitbags.

I'm a little ambivalent about the role of punishment in these matters, at least when it comes to things that can legitimately be seen as symptoms of systemic failures eg. of training or lack of guidance and experience. That can encourage cops to try to cover up fuckups and problems instead of learning to do better.

https://twitter.com/TheInsaneRobin

Start with the tweet 12 hours back (regarding student). Another isolated incident.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/29/us...ing/index.html

I'd forgotten about this :(

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Originally Posted by Loki

https://twitter.com/TheInsaneRobin

Start with the tweet 12 hours back (regarding student). Another isolated incident.

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Wonder if there'll be any negative consequences for the police.

That father should be in prison for felony homicide.

You're right, those cops should indeed be in prison for killing a kid

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Originally Posted by Aimless

You're right, those cops should indeed be in prison for killing a kid

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I haven't made that statement. I'm talking strictly of the absolute piece of filth that would go on a high speed chase with their child in the back of their car. That person should never see the light of day again. That course of action cannot be defended or condoned by any right thinking person. Running from the police and putting yourself and other people around you at risk is already something that should lead to mandatory prison time... to do it while your own child is in the car? Unconscionable.

If you're in the car of someone running from police, you lose your right to life. I think that's in the Constitution somewhere. Article XII, maybe?

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Originally Posted by Loki

If you're in the car of someone running from police, you lose your right to life. I think that's in the Constitution somewhere. Article XII, maybe?

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That poor strawman has suffered enough hasn't he?

And yet you don't think the police did anything wrong in killing the child.

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Originally Posted by Loki

And yet you don't think the police did anything wrong in killing the child.

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You make it sound like they did it on purpose. Only dangerous deranged criminals flee from the police. Letting him get away wasn't an option. Should they have shot at that point, that's where it gets tricky. Bottom line though none of this would have happened if the father wasn't a twisted evil moronic scumbag. Criminals like him do need to be put down, and it is a tragic situation when an innocent child dies for the sins of the father.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

That father should be in prison for felony homicide.

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That would require that their father had committed a felony first. You'll note he hasn't been charged with a damn thing. Because he committed no crime.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

That would require that their father had committed a felony first. You'll note he hasn't been charged with a damn thing. Because he committed no crime.

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Fleeing from the police... you are required to stop.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Fleeing from the police... you are required to stop.

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That assumes everyone hears and understands police commands equally, which of course they don't. If I'm caught in some chaotic event as a bystander, I wouldn't automatically "know" who's the police, but I sure as hell would be running for cover. I'd probably assume they were yelling STOP to the perpetrators, not me.

Don't know how folks in a psychotic episode interpret police commands, but it's probably not far from mine, where we're presumed innocent. Don't know how police are trained to know the difference, but it probably doesn't help much that we have so many legal guns in the mix.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Fleeing from the police... you are required to stop.

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A "pursuit" does not mean a suspect is fleeing. You need to be able to establish mens rea. If someone has done nothing that might lead to getting pulled over (and every piece is quite clear that he did not do anything that would warrant being pulled over after all) than they have every reason to believe that the cop behind them is actually after someone else. If you're trying to get out of a police car's way so that they can go after whoever it is they're really after, well that looks like evasion too. And hey, he didn't get charged with anything. Which shows that yes, even though you heard something described as a pursuit in a journalist's article, the locals think he didn't do ANYTHING they could manage to charge him with.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Fleeing from the police... you are required to stop.

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Is there anything at all a police officer could do that would warrant even a slap on the wrist in your mind? Filling a car full of lead might stop someone who is fleeing the police, but it also can have horrific consequences for innocent bystanders or passengers. You seem to believe that if a car doesn't pull over in the first ten seconds, a police officer is justified in using deadly force against not only the driver of the car, but also anyone else inside the car, or anyone who happens to be hit by errant rounds.

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

Is there anything at all a police officer could do that would warrant even a slap on the wrist in your mind? Filling a car full of lead might stop someone who is fleeing the police, but it also can have horrific consequences for innocent bystanders or passengers. You seem to believe that if a car doesn't pull over in the first ten seconds, a police officer is justified in using deadly force against not only the driver of the car, but also anyone else inside the car, or anyone who happens to be hit by errant rounds.

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I can clarify my position for you. I absolutely think police should give people more than 10 seconds before shooting the car.

Starting to wonder at what stage European countries are going to start feeling compelled to issue travel advice to their black citizens planning on travelling to the US.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/29/us...ing/index.html

I'd forgotten about this :(

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Utterly tragic :(

Silver lining, I'm glad to see that in this instance a body cam was used which has allowed us to know what happened and action is now being taken using the body cam as evidence. As I've advocated should be standard all thread. Nobody in the 21st century should need a gun who doesn't also need a camera. No camera, no gun - simple.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

I can clarify my position for you. I absolutely think police should give people more than 10 seconds before shooting the car.

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So at what point can an officer open fire on a vehicle, and when should they be held accountable for their reckless actions? You realize that in many metropolitan areas it often is policy to call off high speed chases when pursuing a suspect could lead to harm to other motorists or pedestrians, right? Policies like that exist because there are far more important things than "getting" someone who may be running from the police.

Yeah, Lewk hates the idea of calling off high-speed chases because it might put others at risk, too. You have to remember just how low DOWN other people's lives are as a priority for Lewk.

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

So at what point can an officer open fire on a vehicle, and when should they be held accountable for their reckless actions? You realize that in many metropolitan areas it often is policy to call off high speed chases when pursuing a suspect could lead to harm to other motorists or pedestrians, right? Policies like that exist because there are far more important things than "getting" someone who may be running from the police.

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We got to this point by not putting people in prison for running from the police. If someone is running from the police they are a danger to everyone around them and need to be in prison. No exceptions to that, period. They have made the decision to willfully disobey the laws of society. They have made the decision to willfully disobey the ones called to serve and protect the populace. They have made the decision to willfully place other lives at jeopardy for their own benefit. They have chosen to to be a menace, they have proven they are perfectly willing to be violent and have no regards for the law. If these 'people' (and I do like to de-humanize them as much as possible) need to be locked up and separated from the rest of society. They need to be made an example of.

All that being said... I do think it is important to try to avoid harming civilians caught in the crossfire. Just like you wouldn't want to spray bullets at a fleeing suspect in a crowd you don't want to chase a suspect through a school zone during recess. Sound judgement should be made, aerial assets should be used to keep track of the dangerously violent criminal that needs to be put down, but cars right on the heels of a violent idiot can be a danger to others.

It is a careful balancing act because other criminals are watching. If criminals believe they can get away they will run more frequently. If they aren't harshly made an example of the immediate cost/benefit analysis leads people to not worry about fleeing because they know they won't spend a single day more in prison. That's why it is so critical to pass harsh penalties for people who flee.

Liberals of course disagree. They side with criminals OVER AND OVER again.

"Waaah there is rape in prison."

"Waaah prison conditions are bad."

"Waaah prison sentences are too long."

"Waah criminals deserve a second chance."

"Waaah they had a hard life."

"Waaah the system is racist so they had to turn to crime."

"Waaah...."

And all their bleating and crying makes MORE victims and produces MORE criminals.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

"Waaah there is rape in prison." :bulb: (Seriously? You're pro prison-rape????)

"Waaah prison conditions are bad." :bulb:

"Waaah prison sentences are too long." :bulb: (People in prison for decades or for life bc they got caught selling pot is absurd and stupid and is a huge waste of public resources.)

"Waah criminals deserve a second chance." :bulb:

"Waaah they had a hard life." (Not sure anyone's using that as an excuse, but it isn't one, I agree.)

"Waaah the system is racist so they had to turn to crime." :bulb: (I think the point here is that racism sends a lot of black men to jail who aren't actually criminals)

"Waaah...."

And all their bleating and crying makes MORE victims and produces MORE criminals. :bulb: or maybe :confused:

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Um. Well.

That's... a pretty dumb analysis, Lewk. I'm sorry

Lewk opposes any prison time at all for pot to be fair ...

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Lewk opposes any prison time at all for pot to be fair ...

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Well, that's the sort of thing "Liberals" are talking about when they whine that prison sentences are too long... Would be a shame to support shit-head policy bc it feels tough on criminals when you really don't agree with it at all. :bulb:

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Um. Well.

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I'm not supporting prison rape as a policy, but I'm not going to cry over the fact that criminals are suffering for their idiocy.

I agree 100% - we shouldn't put people in prison for pot, gambling, prostitution and other drugs. "Vice" crimes are bull shit.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Well, that's the sort of thing "Liberals" are talking about when they whine that prison sentences are too long... Would be a shame to support shit-head policy bc it feels tough on criminals when you really don't agree with it at all. :bulb:

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It isn't just drug use that liberals want lower sentences for. Many liberals get bent out of shape for someone going to prison for life for felony murder when they were the getaway driver. Sorry, no sympathy for someone who helps in a crime that gets someone killed - liberals on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

We got to this point by not putting people in prison for running from the police.

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Define running from police. I have several friends who are police officers. If they approach someone on the street and that person starts running they are trained not to do anything, unless there is reasonable suspicion that they may be involved in criminal activity. Simply running from a police officer is not a crime, nor should it be. Individuals are free to disengage from an encounter with the police if they are not under arrest, or are otherwise being detained.

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If someone is running from the police they are a danger to everyone around them and need to be in prison. No exceptions to that, period. They have made the decision to willfully disobey the laws of society. They have made the decision to willfully disobey the ones called to serve and protect the populace. They have made the decision to willfully place other lives at jeopardy for their own benefit. They have chosen to to be a menace, they have proven they are perfectly willing to be violent and have no regards for the law. If these 'people' (and I do like to de-humanize them as much as possible) need to be locked up and separated from the rest of society. They need to be made an example of.

All that being said... I do think it is important to try to avoid harming civilians caught in the crossfire. Just like you wouldn't want to spray bullets at a fleeing suspect in a crowd you don't want to chase a suspect through a school zone during recess. Sound judgement should be made, aerial assets should be used to keep track of the dangerously violent criminal that needs to be put down, but cars right on the heels of a violent idiot can be a danger to others.

It is a careful balancing act because other criminals are watching. If criminals believe they can get away they will run more frequently. If they aren't harshly made an example of the immediate cost/benefit analysis leads people to not worry about fleeing because they know they won't spend a single day more in prison. That's why it is so critical to pass harsh penalties for people who flee.

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So if a police officer in an unmarked car starts chasing a citizen, at what point can they use lethal force to stop that individual from running? What should happen to that police officer if during the chase they run a bus full of children off the road, or shoot an elderly grandmother who happened to be walking past? What should be the punishment for an officer exercising bad judgment if that poor judgment results in the death of an innocent bystander?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Lewk opposes any prison time at all for pot to be fair ...

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He does, but he also thinks that since it is the law, they really ought to be murdered in prison because they still chose to break it.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

It isn't just drug use that liberals want lower sentences for. Many liberals get bent out of shape for someone going to prison for life for felony murder when they were the getaway driver. Sorry, no sympathy for someone who helps in a crime that gets someone killed - liberals on the other hand...

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That's actually the normal and reasonable exercise of felony-murder and few are going to get bent out of shape about it. We might vacillate a bit but it's how the law is supposed to work. What we're going to get upset about is if you charge the "get-away driver" with felony-murder because a guard/homeowner shot and killed the guy actually committing the alleged theft. Or if a spectator at the scene's aftermath gets hit by a car when they're distracted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-mothers-porch

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Originally Posted by Loki

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-mothers-porch

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Two cops acted dreadfully which was caught on a body cam and now neither of them are cops anymore?

Score a big win for what I've been proposing all along.

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Law enforcement officers are entitled to use whatever amount of force they deemed necessary to arrest someone they believed committed a crime, Neumann told the paper.

“To charge him would be a violation of my role as a prosecutor,” Neumann said.

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Score a big fat loss. It only shows that even with body-cams cops treat black people like shit and suggests that your attempts to trivialize the problem (or make it look like black people are exaggerating) are foolish. It also shows that a cop can act like that on camera and basically get away with it with no real punishment. The guy resigned during the investigation. No charges. Nothing to stop him from working as a cop again somewhere else.

Losing your career and likely now losing his licence so he can't get a job elsewhere is no punishment?

If a doctor screws up that's a pretty severe punishment isn't it?

I never once said black people are exaggerating or that it was trivial. I suggested that the Police in the USA work in a dangerous potentially fatal career and need to use force sometimes, but there should be body cams and anyone who abuses that should be dealt with properly. The top punishment for gross misconduct in most careers being losing your career.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Losing your career and likely now losing his licence so he can't get a job elsewhere is no punishment?

If a doctor screws up that's a pretty severe punishment isn't it?

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For deliberate unjustifiable assault and a likely violation of a person's civil rights? Getting away with just resigning? I don't think that's punishment, no. That's just the bare minimum needed to save face and protect the public a little. It's like saying, "Oh, it looks like you don't know how to do your job properly. Maybe you shouldn't work here :)"

Punishment would be to impose additional fines or otherwise appropriate sentence all the way up to prison time. Restitution for the victim would entail eg. financial compensation.

Losing your license for "screwing up" is a pretty severe punishment, yes. But there's screwing up and then there's deliberately doing something grossly inappropriate to the point of being arguably criminal.