Are those the Danes from the match yesterday? I seem to remember less of them.
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Are those the Danes from the match yesterday? I seem to remember less of them.
Danes? Where? :think:
Never mind me :)
Are we confusing the Danish flag with the English one? Hm? Are we? Hm?
:)
Oh, grow up. You lost the argument, you were *wrong*. Just admit it or keep silent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Perhaps you can submit a semi-decent rebuttal (of what I actually said, instead of repeatedly attacking strawmen) before resorting to nationalistic gibberish? My argument is not that there aren't any good English players, but rather that, for the most part, England lacks elite players, which is obvious in the Premiership and even more in the other major leagues.
"Im Loki, i can dish it out but i cant take it in return, wah wah wah"
Your entire argument consisted of saying that Beckham (who, coincidentally is not playing for England now) managed to become a reserve at AC Milan. Congratulations.
I'm confused as to why we're rambling on about elite players and about the relative awesomeness of the premier league. If there's one thing I've learned from the World Cup it's that your country doesn't need to have tons of superstars in order to do well. England's problem isn't that the team lacks elite players, England's problem is that the team often plays poorly in the world cup for some reason, which brings us right back to square one.
How about just using Occam's razor? Instead of wondering why England underperforms every single time, perhaps one can reach the easy conclusion that English players just aren't as good as the English think they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Well, if FIFA are the authority to go by:
England has never had a Player of the Year Award, since the award began in 1991. List is as follows:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...jpg?1276612499
As ranked by nationality for 1st, 2nd and 3rd places, England comes 9th:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...jpg?1276612609
Source
That's using Occam's razor to cut away all the factors you don't like. Not sure that tool was intended to be used like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
One word: teamwork. It has been shown frequently to be more important than star players.
Because there's as much reason to go with answers such as:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
- English players just don't play well with each other in international tournaments
- The English team doesn't play the right kind of football for the world cup
- They just don't try hard enough :o
- ...
I invite you to consider South Korea, Australia, Turkey, the USA, etc in the last few world cups.
Probably not a coincidence that England is ranked 8th in the world right now. :noob: I think it's rather arrogant for Englishmen to continuously assume that the reason their teams fail is because of some mysterious factors and not simply the quality of English players.
So England consistently has bad teamwork, regardless of who coaches the team and who the players are? Seriously? You think that's a reasonable explanation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
Luck matters in soccer, so it's not surprising that you'll have an occasional upset (especially when you're the home team). This is particularly true of teams that play a stifling defense, as scoring once can assure them victory, even if they don't have elite talent. You get the same in hockey; mediocre teams play the trap and rely on turnovers for their goals, which has led to some major upsets in the past. This hardly explains why a team would consistently fair poorly, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
It is to anyone who's seen them play :o and when their teamwork is good they fail to take advantage of it by playing more aggressively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
It's probably cultural.
Anyone who relies on cultural explanations needs to be shot. Seriously. It's the worst ad hoc explanation ever devised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
It's why South Koreans crashed airplanes.
No it didnt. That was an example supporting a minor side point, stupid cat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Obviously your knowledge of football is only equalled by your ability to have a discussion without being a massive goatfucker.
Do you want to explain away the data provided by Timbuk and myself?
The problem, Loki, is that your argument isn't actually supported by any of the evidence you've put forward, and ignoring posts that point this out won't make this fact go away, and calling the posters who point this out "nationalistic" won't make your argument any less flawed. FFS, I don't even care about this topic that much, but your blatant dishonesty is extremely insulting; you obviously have a very poor view of the intelligence of everyone else in this thread if you think we wouldn't notice the statistical slight of hand you're trying to pull on us, which is to try and sell the number of foreign players in the Primer League as evidence of the lack of native talent, when the Premier League is the most prestigious league in the world and attracts the best talent from all over the world and English players are still single most numerous group in the League and that, yes, most of the mediocre (by Premier League standards) talent will be English because there's no reason to import a mediocre foreigner but this is not evidence that England is underrepresented in the pool of elite players in the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
For example, suppose Superclub FC has 3 English starters and 8 foreigners, you would take this as support for your argument until you look at the breakdown:
3 English
2 Italian
1 Brazilian
2 Spaniards
1 Dutchman
1 German
1 Croat
You find that England is not "underrepresented" at all. Teams like Manchester United et al are global business empires and can afford to have the pick of the best players from the whole world - that is why they only have 2 or 3 Englishmen playing.
So let's see, the best players in England are not English. The best players in Germany are German, the best players in France are French, the best players in Spain are Spanish, and the best players in Italy are Italian. You can't dominate your own league, and then you wonder why England isn't the best team in the world...Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
And stop it with the ridiculous "this doesn't matter because the Premiership is the best league in the world" crap. It might be the best, but not by a wide margin. The Spanish and Italians seem to attract world-class talent just fine. The only real difference is that the mediocre English teams have better talent than the mediocre Italian and Spanish ones.
I disagreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Exhibit a:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
By best, I mean 'richest'. Look at the number of English teams: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/34/Rank_1.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Loki
And that "the best players in spain are spanish and the best players in italy are italian" thing is arse, too.
The spanish league is a two-horse race between barca and real. Barca happen to have a committment to developing local talent and so have a large number of high-quality native players. (distorted by the fact that they can claim the entire catalonia region as "theirs" for local scouting). Even so, their best players are Xabi, Iniesta, Messi and Ibrahimavic. Messi is argentine and Ibra is swedish.
Now, if we move to Real, what do we see? Ronaldo? Portugese. Kaka? Brazilian. Benzema? French.
Champions league winning italian team inter milans number of italian players? None
Bayern Munich, runners up in the champions league? Of their best players, arguably the two best, Robben and Ribery, are dutch and french. And this from a league that traditionally doesnt import pleyers in significant numbers.
Now, we can argue if these are really "the best" in each league, but regardless, its pretty clear that your statement that "the best players in the spanish league are spanish, the best players in the italian league are italian..." is wrong
Best players in the world: Lionel Messi and Christiano Ronaldo. Messi is an argentine and Ronaldo is a portugese and both play in spain.
http://soccerlens.com/uefa-football-...ar-2008/20925/
http://soccerlens.com/uefa-football-...ar-2009/39655/
How many Englishmen there?
As for your picking and choosing which part of La Liga to emphasize, out of the league's 4 main awards were given to Spaniards (with the other two to Messi), and except for goals scored, they dominate all the statistical categories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga#Individual_awards
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2...son_statistics
Not sure how this tangent of foreign players disproves at all Steely's original statement that England underperformed.
He's pretty clearly referring to the match vs. US, and he's pretty clearly correct.
If you want to play the over-rated card, you have to show that they are over-rated to the point where the US team is actually better. (or equal)
But you can't prove that, because it's bullshit.
Eh? I responded to the claim that England has a long history of under-performing. It would be stupid to make conclusions from one match.
England does have a long history of underperforming against Sweden :downcast:
Anyway, back to the actual world cup you halfwits.
Goalless draw between Ivory Coast and Portugal, not what I was expecting.
Italy's bunch of old-timers in a draw 1-1 with Paraguay.
Soooo many draws. :|
It's not one match, just the latest in line.
Which is the whole point.
They have a habit of fucking the duck against teams they are better than...if you want to put it down to being over-rated, you show that through the matches..the player make-up of the Premier League has nothing to do with the performance of National teams in International matches.
I suppose the performances of Italy, Serbia, France, and Cameroon so far mean they are over-rated as well.
Or that the U.S. defeating England 1-0 in the 1950 cup was because US was actually a better team.
That's nonsense dude, it's under-performing on one side, usually combined with the other team playing above their level.
The FIFA rankings aren't perfect, but they are a good rough estimate, and when you lose or tie to a team that's well under you, you are under-performing...and England's unfortunate habit of doing that has squat to do with some anomaly in the ranking system.
Freakin sweet injury time goal by the Kiwis. Stellar cross! Congrats on their first world cup point!
Glad to see stricter officiating and fewer flops throughout. :up: I've only been bitching about this for about 30 years. :D
PS Japan and Cameroon looked awful (esp. Cameroon). Roger Milla must be puking. No corner flag dances this year!
You managed to contradict yourself within a single post. :noob: I said we can't conclude anything from a single match, and here you are claiming that I suggest the US was better in 1950 just because of how it performed in one match...Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowheart
This thread is going to end up on Loki's gold star trolling board that he hangs over his bed, we all know it. :p
Stop being absurd dude :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
My presenting a single example of a trend is not the same as suggesting that trend is solely tied to that game and you know that.
Please...you're really reaching there.
Jesus, read the first line of my post and notice how that's the opposite of what you're saying I'm saying.
Or do we need a list of every similar disappointment in English Football history before you actually show examples of how their under performance in international matches is actually due to them being over-rated?
Brazil - North Korea. After one half, I'm rooting for North Korea. How did that happen? :D
Great expectations from Brazil and samba soccer from many people will not be met. Brasil has turned to European school a couple of years ago. Shame, but inevitable.
English Football ... please, don't put 'Soccer' and 'English' in the same sentance, it's absurd but we will forgive you this one time.
NK are giving Brazil a good run for there money, very impressed if I'm honest. I just saw a sign being held up saying "Stop politics for 90mins" -
A FUCKING MEN!
Samba Soccer has alliteration. Or do you need the whole first silly ball for that?
Anyway, it sounds better than Samba Football and therefore is allowed by the powers invested in me.
Ah that combo is allowed because it doesn't have 'English' in it, thus I also allow it.
Did you see the NK player crying at the beginning ... passion baby! :up:
Yeah, you got me. Barca had a good season then a great season. That does indeed prove that english people are shit at football. Shame that 2009 team got beat in the semi-finals of the champs league by Inter. Doesnt that mean that now in 2010, Spanish people are bad at football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Its funny though, because Spain are famously huge underachievers in international tournaments. Pretty much right up until the last European championship you would be guaranteed to find any decription of them including the words "perennial underachievers". And around that time, English teams with significant numbers of English players won the Champions leagues back to back, including a couple of all-English finals. I suppose 8 years ago you would have been advancing the same arguments for Spain as you are now for England?
This is funny, you telling me that im picking and choosing data. When you have just invented a new set of goalposts for me to jump through (now i have to prove that spanish players dont play well in the spanish league rather than who are the best players in the league?)Quote:
As for your picking and choosing which part of La Liga to emphasize, out of the league's 4 main awards were given to Spaniards (with the other two to Messi), and except for goals scored, they dominate all the statistical categories.
You said that the best players in the spanish leagues are spanish, the best players in the italian leagues are italian, and so on. Looking at the examples i gave above, its pretty clear that they arent.
Furthermore, English teams outside of "the big 4" have far higher percentages of English nationals as players. See Aston Villa. The "big 4" historically have had a lot more money to spend and foreign players always have a certain allure. Most of them dont deliver on their promise. A good number of the teams in the EPL far outclass similar teams in other leagues. Doesnt that show that the English teams with the higher percentage of English players are actually better?
Anyway, enough of this retardedness. No more trolling.
Kind of like how he ignored 90% of my post, picked up a side example that i threw in in brackets and then said it was my "entire argument".Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowheart
Its pretty annoying, because hes not actually stupid, but you cant have a sensible discussion with the man. Might as well just forget it.
^ Yes, precisely.
Apologies. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lor
