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Did you read this part:Quote:
Originally Posted by Being
"Kierán Suckling, executive director of the Tucson, Arizona-based Center for Biological Diversity, told ABC News that the Interior Department is in fact able to conduct reviews in 30 days, as they do in Alaska."
Good thing the person in question is a lawyer, bureaucrat, or someone else in a position to actually determine the legality of the actions.
Nothing, its the argument Loki wants to have. He's been framing like crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
And Being, like Chaloobi, continues to blame corporations when it is clear that the government had the full authority to prevent this but chose not to. :bored:
But....then you'd complain about Big Brother intervening in Big Business!
When big gummint doesn't step in, it's because it was deregulated or defanged, by big oil's lobbying efforts.
Go go USA #1! :cheerleader:
Well that's because, clearly, if we give the government more power... next time will be different. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Loki
You see, unlike you closet socialists, I believe in something called property rights. You people, on the other hand, continue to want to expand the power of the government, which has an interest in not fully punishing violators. If it was up to me, BP and platform operator would have to pay every penny for the cleanup, for all the damage caused by the oil spill, and all the loss in income to people who can't work as a result. But your all mighty government will make sure that taxpayers are stuck with a majority of the bill. Coincidentally, the knowledge that they wouldn't be fully punished in the event of a major spill is the reason why these companies take such risks in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
That's corporate dicks being sucked, not corporations sucking dick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
It never hurts to point that out, given it's what will cause your life to be spared when the revolution finally comes. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Duh, a moral hazard is when there's a risk of doing something immoral, innit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Closet SSSocialists? :haha: You people? :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Big Lawyers and Big Money and Big Oil....thank them for liability caps and crappy safety procedures. All ur legislators r belong to us.
Coincidentally, their Big Profits are what make them take Big Risks. They're laughing all the way to the (big) bank. I'd like to send a lot of these pigs to the Big House, let them squeaaal and Bubba gets his Bitch.
:mad:
Slogans and cliches are fun.
The only moral hazard the squad here believes in is the moral hazard of not being ordered around by the government. Of course they'd prefer to have everyone else ordered around by the government, but they're willing to be ordered around as well if it accomplishes that objective.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenCain
Yeah, it is pretty obvious, isn't it? I wouldn't classify you guys as "closet" socialists.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Yeah, clearly the inherent problem there is bigness. Not government giving away shit it doesn't own to people it doesn't belong to.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Don't be such a dumbass, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Oh, jealous, populist dumbass. Much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
:popcorn:
That's the best you two can do? Criticize? Great Big Gobs of Greasy Gopher Guts---Critics of the critical, with all the answers! oh wait, I don't see any solutions or answers in your posts. None. You just prance around saying it's all about property rights and gummint is the Big Bad Wolf.
:donkey:
Wrong. Not making things worse by not listening to your stupid shit *is* a solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
So you don't really have any ideas or solutions. You just hop into threads calling out morons. :bored:
As Khen asked in the other thread, what good does it to sue AFTER the nuclear reactor has spilled its guts in our backyard?
I have plenty, and again, "not listening to your stupid ideas" is an idea and a solution in its own right. And a damned good one, to boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Interestingly, only morons seem to have a problem with this behavior of mine. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Besides which, I do plenty of other things too... and if you want to just ignore my proposed solutions because they're not sufficiently populist, or don't result in anal rape of those you don't like.... well, then there's really not much left to say but "moron!"
What solutions of yours are we ignoring? We already acknowledged blowing up the underwater oil volcano.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenCain
Making BP, Transocean and Halliburton pay for all the costs without a cap, including damage done to the coastal eco-systems, and expenses of the Coast Guard, plus a lost fishing industry? Riight, like that's gonna happen.
Anyone who mentions safety regulations is met with your zomg pre-crime! :bored:
Yup, you got me. Better to bitch about "big" stuff being evil than attempt to actually fix the mess, and of course, writing down more safety regulations for the MMS to ignore is clearly an effective solution that the silly lolbertard won't acknowledge.
I haven't blamed the corporation. :| Why should they follow expensive rules if no one makes them and if a disaster strikes the tax payer will pay most of the cost? I'm blaming conservative policy. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
So, your bitching is better than mine? Oh, the irony.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenCain
Attempting to fix the mess goes beyond "just nuke it". If it's about property rights, that gas and oil belongs to the whole US.
Now how can the entire nation "fix the mess" without using a federal gummint? And why wouldn't those agencies be expected to consider the whole Big nation (as the owners), and not simply cater to Big Oil (as the profiteers)?
They apparently don't need more power. They just need to enforce the regulations consistently. But our fucked up, extremely polarized and cynical 2 party system prevents that.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenCain
I agree. Damn that conservative Obama. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Is irony another word you need the definition of? Because it sure seems that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
:haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Wait, weren't you just complaining about Loki attaching a socialist label to you?
And then you say that?
Yeah, there's some irony for you.
You're clearly never gonna get it, so stop straining your brain. Yes, all big business is evil, and clearly life would be better if the government came in, broke up big corporations and split everything up fairly among the people. Also, this is not socialist.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
No, democracy prevents that.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
You must be out there with Stalin and Soros if you think that. :huh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Not sure how you *really* feel about that, but I've been giving it a lot of thought lately (like in the blog entry I wrote). I'm not sure human civilization can survive our current brand of 'democracy.'Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenCain
American Exceptionalism. On display for the whole world.
Can we fuck anything else up besides several states being bankrupt, a global financial system tied to monetizing debt, false pensions and healthcare, the Gulf Coast ecosystem, the War on Terrorism, the War on Drugs, the War on Illegal Immigration? Did I leave anything out?
Go go USA #1! :cheerleader:
You really can't tell?Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Democracy is the doctrine that every opinion, no matter how stupid and uninformed is equal in value to every other opinion. It's like communism, applied to ideas. But that whole communism thing worked out great when applied to the economy, right?
No brand of democracy works, because fundamentally, it assumes popularity is an indicator of worth, despite the inescapable reality that the correlation between popularity and an idea's value is usually inversely proportional. And exponential.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
For fuck's sake, you want proof of why democracy can never work, all you need to do is look at GeeGee's post above mine.
For fuck's sake, you want proof of why democracy can never work, all you need to do is look at GeeGee's post above mine.
He's whining he can't be King. Or malevolent Dicktater. He hates people and wants to nuke Florida and California. Or something.
He's mad that the US is the last whistle stop on the freeeedom train, and there's nowhere else to go. He hasn't saved enough to buy his own island-country, with a natural moat complete with sharks. Plus, he's addicted to electricity and technology. As long as other countries make the satellites and computers, guns and ammo, which he loves....well, he can't have it both ways, have his cake and eat it, too.
Even calling everyone else moronic has lost its flavor. Poor Cain.
Thanks GeeGee.
If I have any other points I need you to prove for me, I'll be sure to prod you into posting against them. :downcast:
No problem. You like this place because of people like me. Makes you feel all warm and tingly, dunnit. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenCain
What you don't/won't admit is that I'm also sympathetic to your woes and share much of your anger. But your ego won't let you have stupid, ignorant, uneducated morons as allies. Your energy is wrapped up in the anger itself, and making everyone an enemy or foe just makes it easier to protect yourself.
I suppose that's what well indoctrinated soldiers do, after all.
No skin off my nose if you wanna think that...Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Yeah, that's not "ego."Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to stop and reconsider.
If you can figure out why that is, I think you should be able to figure out why I won't give you a pass on being ignorant about whatever, even if you manage to come to a similar conclusion as I do.
No, not at all. You kind of learn to work with others to make the Drill Sargent stop yelling at you, and later, in the field, to not die.Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
Again, this is another example of a GeeGee face palm - "here's a topic I don't actually know anything about, so I may as well express an opinion about it, why not?" :bored:
Considering the post you opened the thread with? You've also got a consistency problem, you've blamed three different Presidents so far, using three different reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Fine (Cain), it's your Id. :bored:
I have enough knowledge about human behavior to know I don't know it all.
But being a contrarian rebel means some of teh zomg ignorant morons you hate just might share the same spaces. But you'd rather cut your nose off to spite your face.
I might as well just go to choobie's thread about cannibalism at this point. Principles can kill you, or they can keep you alive. Other people are always part of the gamble. :bored:
Things change over time. I don't think its necessarily appropriate to blame a particular president, to tell the truth. The real culprit is the conservative notion that less regulation is always better, and its ugly step child that "self-regulation" is somehow something more than no regulation. And the Bush Administration seemed to take the approach that the best way to implement these notions is to have the various agencies just not enforce the regulations (wink wink, nod). I don't know for sure but at first or second glance I would guess that may be behind how some of the variety of screw ups occurred to pull off this wonderfully unfolding disaster. Now, the modern idea of less regulation = better seemed to start with Reagan, but I'm not sure. It would be odd to say it's always been a Republican deal when you consider the EPA was created in the Nixon Administration. On the other hand, the Clinton Administration seemed to have swallowed a little of that poison as well, considering the financial system deregulation that went on then. But I'd be very surprised if any fossil industry deretulation, above or below board, went on then. Or intentionally under Obama. If there's ever been a presidency in bed with the oil business in modern history, its the Bush Administration.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
Self regulation IS worse than no regulation. Because at least with no regulation you know where you stand, and can assess the risks. Self-regulation is like the financial instruments that took down the markets: nobody could assess their risk accurately, so it resulted in catastrophe. With no regulation at least you know where you stand. But yes, self-regulation is a BS smoke and mirrors game. The fox watching the hen house.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Edit 1: Ever heard of "starve the beast?" The idea was implicit in Reaganomics. The idea was to induce deficits to force cutting of government expenditures. A corollary is that one can then point to the inefficiency of hamstrung government agencies as a post hoc justification of one's agenda. It's how some conservatives justify their positions: I've heard people (including family) point to the Katrina fiasco as evidence that everything government does being inefficient. Well, there's a reason for that!
Don't get me wrong, I have no illusions that government is efficient. I just think that any bureaucracy is inefficient, and that bureaucracies are the inevitable consequence of size. Thus, any company that is large enough also grows an impenetrable thicket of bureaucracy, as anybody who has dealt with an insurance company knows. As a corollary, I'd argue that small companies and small agencies are the most efficient. But that's a whole 'nother thread, ain't it? The point just being that as usual, I think that the truth lies in the middle, between the extreme positions.
Edit 2: The Bush administration wasn't in bed with petroindustry. They WERE petroindustry. Can you get more petro than Halliburton, of which Cheney was CEO? It would be like electing the commissioner of a pro sports league as president, have him still getting paychecks, and then saying that he's "in bed" with that sport.
Nixon also started the war on cancer, and greatly expanded biomed research, ushering American dominance of biotech. The definition of "conservative" has changed a lot over the years. Nixon is obviously a complex bag of issues, but his take on public investment in future "infrastructure" was like that of Eisenhower and that type of conservative. Very different than Reagan's.
BTW, I've always found it amusing that the poor Reagan was a union organizer and dirty liberal, and the rich and famous Reagan was a union busting, conservative politico. The guy's entire life could be couched as self-interest.
It's pretty sad for a political party when you can rightly look back to one of the nation's most notorious political villains and honestly say "yeah, that's when the party was capable of governing." This starve the beast (I.e destroy the infrastructure that made this a great nation) thinking is national suicide.
Gee, I didn't realize that this country became great by having the government run a double digit deficit and spending well over 40% of GDP.
There's almost certainly a hell of a lot you still don't realize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Trying to mimic Being?
It didn't, as you know I've pointed out many times during the W years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
But who implemented deficit spending as a governing strategy? And don't answer Obama. First, I think existential crises are the only justification for extensive deficit spending, and that's what Obama was challenged with. Edit: arguably this was the first existential crisis since WWII. Second, I do believe that he believes that tackling health care is a critical issue for both the feds and the economy as a whole. Is he going to succeed with this strategy? Maybe, maybe not. But at least he tried, which is more than the GOP can say. I think the GOP could have tried some good strategies that probably would have been very different, but they didn't, did they? They passed the buck when they had the power to do something. that's cowardice. Or just playing politics with the economic future of the US. In a situation trending towards unsustainability, he who tries and fails is to be respected above he who hides his head in the sand and passes the buck to the next guy.
Come on, man. That's lame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki