Brexit Begins

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

That's not a law. This is.

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The excerpt from the resolution serves to illustrate the consensus on EU law on this matter. Those who drafted the resolution subscribe to a strict interpretation of EU law that precludes formal negotiations on future trade relationship until the UK is a third country, and MEPs, officials, civil servants and lawyers agree with this interpretation. If the UK disagrees, it will have to litigate the matter, esp. now that it has practically no credibility and goodwill. The text you cite refers to a withdrawal agreement and it has been established that the agreement will not progress until the Irish border matter is settled in a manner consistent with the December agreement. If that's a problem for the UK, it will have to get support for a new resolution amending the directives given to the negotiators. It is truly remarkable how reluctant the UK is to accept that its statements and actions have logical, predictable consequences.

I really enjoy the way this is going. The British government is exposed as a bunch of lying fantasts ; promising us no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland and promising the DUP no border in the Irish sea and promising their own extremists no customs union. Too bad for them this time we published what they promised us.

There's absolutely no reason why all three can't be achieved unless you want to put up a border.

Says the man who actually voted to take back control. You lot are fooling nobody with your self-serving "pragmatism".

Yes I voted to take back control. This just demonstrates more and more each day why that was the right move.

If you don't want a border in Ireland and we don't want a border in Ireland then the solution is simple: don't put a border up. Just as there's multiple other crossings into the EU without border checks including the busy E16 Norway/Sweden route.

The reality is that smuggling is already an issue today. Differing tax rates are an issue today. High value, small size and easily moved products like tobacco and alcohol have very different tax rates already today. People can carry those goods across the border already. If you don't want a border then don't put up a border and if transport across the border happens it happens. Depends what your priority is.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Because its not what was agreed in December. Nor does "no hard border" and a "customs union" mean the same thing.

Here we have the border between the EU on the left and a nation the EU has a customs union with on the right:

Is that what you mean by "no hard border"?

While here we again have the EU on the left and a nation this time not in a customs union on the right:


According to Wikipedia there are 30 roads crossing that border that don't have customs stations so allowing crossings without customs stations is not only already possible its already done.

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You really don't understand what a "hard border" actually means, don't you?

Hint: It's not defined by walls, fences or similar stuff.

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

You really don't understand what a "hard border" actually means, don't you?

Hint: It's not defined by walls, fences or similar stuff.

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Indeed. Hence this is a soft border facilitated by a customs union isn't it:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/1/...dd173ce507.jpg

This is Norway's reality even though it's in EFTA and Schengen and has nearly complete access to the single market:

https://www.economist.com/news/brita...border-norways

So, in summary: nope.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Indeed. Hence this is a soft border facilitated by a customs union isn't it:

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You're once again only displaying more of your ignorance, dude. "Hard" versus "soft" borders are defined by laws and treaties, whether there are actual walls and fences is secondary.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

This is Norway's reality even though it's in EFTA and Schengen and has nearly complete access to the single market:

https://www.economist.com/news/brita...border-norways

So, in summary: nope.

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Since we are leaving the EU including Northern Ireland its time to get on with discussing practical solutions or else that it what it will be then. If that's what it is, so be it.

RB - out of interest, what did you make of John Major's speech yesterday?

I thought it was excellent and showed a stark difference in statesmanship compared with our current Government senior officials.

I haven't seen it.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Since we are leaving the EU including Northern Ireland its time to get on with discussing practical solutions or else that it what it will be then. If that's what it is, so be it.

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My point is that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the negotiations, the relevant laws, the proposed solutions/implementations etc. When your misconceptions are corrected the rational thing to do is to reassess.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Since we are leaving the EU including Northern Ireland its time to get on with discussing practical solutions or else that it what it will be then. If that's what it is, so be it.

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The problem is that your government talks of "alternative solutions" yet provides absolutely no details on what those solutions are supposed to look like. Other than a magical handwaving "technology will solve it."

Some specifics have been provided.

For starters trusted trader schemes where those operating HGVs etc are required to electronically enter customs details when they cross the border combined with ANPR technology.

Insufficient.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Some specifics have been provided.

For starters trusted trader schemes where those operating HGVs etc are required to electronically enter customs details when they cross the border combined with ANPR technology.

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ANPR?

Yeah, that will go over well. How positively Orwellian of you guys.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Some specifics have been provided.

For starters trusted trader schemes where those operating HGVs etc are required to electronically enter customs details when they cross the border combined with ANPR technology.

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We don't need specifics we need a working and certified system. What action has been taken?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Some specifics have been provided.

For starters trusted trader schemes where those operating HGVs etc are required to electronically enter customs details when they cross the border combined with ANPR technology.

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These proposals, when fully implemented and matured, will address only a small portion of the problems that arise from a hard border, which arises from the UK leaving the SM & CU. They do not eliminate the border, nor make it frictionless. The ANPR idea has been met with resistance from both sides of the border.

At this point I'm left with nothing but a morbid fascination with Brexiters' unshakable belief that they don't need to inform themselves about how things work in reality, because obviously they are in possession of a extraordinary innate insight that allows them to know and understand everything that the Canadians, Americans, Swedes, Norwegians, civil servants, trade negotiators and experienced jurists do not. The UK's negotiation efforts have been hampered at every step by this willful ignorance about things that any semi-literate Brit with an internet connection could have developed a working knowledge of several years ago.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Yes I voted to take back control. This just demonstrates more and more each day why that was the right move.

If you don't want a border in Ireland and we don't want a border in Ireland then the solution is simple: don't put a border up. Just as there's multiple other crossings into the EU without border checks including the busy E16 Norway/Sweden route.

The reality is that smuggling is already an issue today. Differing tax rates are an issue today. High value, small size and easily moved products like tobacco and alcohol have very different tax rates already today. People can carry those goods across the border already. If you don't want a border then don't put up a border and if transport across the border happens it happens. Depends what your priority is.

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We're not interested in arranging our affairs in order to please you. Have fun destroying your own agriculture and manufacturing, and pray to the gods we will allow London to play its role for a while longer.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

These proposals, when fully implemented and matured, will address only a small portion of the problems that arise from a hard border, which arises from the UK leaving the SM & CU. They do not eliminate the border, nor make it frictionless. The ANPR idea has been met with resistance from both sides of the border.

At this point I'm left with nothing but a morbid fascination with Brexiters' unshakable belief that they don't need to inform themselves about how things work in reality, because obviously they are in possession of a extraordinary innate insight that allows them to know and understand everything that the Canadians, Americans, Swedes, Norwegians, civil servants, trade negotiators and experienced jurists do not. The UK's negotiation efforts have been hampered at every step by this willful ignorance about things that any semi-literate Brit with an internet connection could have developed a working knowledge of several years ago.

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It's really incredible yes. Today there was yet another of those idiots; a cabinet minister saying that the UK would refuse to put up a hard border in Ireland even in the case of a hard Brexit. That effectively means they can have no tariffs for any other of their trading partners and thus have given up any leverage they would have in trade negotiations with any other country. Because what would they want to give if the Brits have already given away everything?

But what's even more gobsmacking is how these idiots don't understand even the most basic ideas about how power works. How the fuck can they believe we will give them what we wouldn't give Cameron in his negotiations when HE still had a veto to wield to make life real difficult for us. They weakened their negotiating platform and somehow expect that will get them a better result.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

How the fuck can they believe we will give them what we wouldn't give Cameron in his negotiations when HE still had a veto to wield to make life real difficult for us. They weakened their negotiating platform and somehow expect that will get them a better result.

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It's because they are really stupid.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

It's really incredible yes. Today there was yet another of those idiots; a cabinet minister saying that the UK would refuse to put up a hard border in Ireland even in the case of a hard Brexit. That effectively means they can have no tariffs for any other of their trading partners and thus have given up any leverage they would have in trade negotiations with any other country. Because what would they want to give if the Brits have already given away everything?

But what's even more gobsmacking is how these idiots don't understand even the most basic ideas about how power works. How the fuck can they believe we will give them what we wouldn't give Cameron in his negotiations when HE still had a veto to wield to make life real difficult for us. They weakened their negotiating platform and somehow expect that will get them a better result.

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Cameron weakened himself in the negotiations by not being credible in threatening to back Leave himself if he didn't get what he was after. Cameron essentially said we'd keep paying the tab regardless of what we get. Now we're actually leaving and that's a gamechanger, if you want something from us then you need to give us something worth having - and vice-versa.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

These proposals, when fully implemented and matured, will address only a small portion of the problems that arise from a hard border, which arises from the UK leaving the SM & CU. They do not eliminate the border, nor make it frictionless. The ANPR idea has been met with resistance from both sides of the border.

At this point I'm left with nothing but a morbid fascination with Brexiters' unshakable belief that they don't need to inform themselves about how things work in reality, because obviously they are in possession of a extraordinary innate insight that allows them to know and understand everything that the Canadians, Americans, Swedes, Norwegians, civil servants, trade negotiators and experienced jurists do not. The UK's negotiation efforts have been hampered at every step by this willful ignorance about things that any semi-literate Brit with an internet connection could have developed a working knowledge of several years ago.

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My solution is that we start talking credibly and deal with the issues. Your solution seems to be to put your head in the sand and hope the whole thing goes away.

We are leaving, Northern Ireland is leaving. The only question is how. Wishing it wasn't the case doesn't change anything. Thinking it's a mistake doesn't change anything. Reaching a deal does.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

My solution is that we start talking credibly and deal with the issues. Your solution seems to be to put your head in the sand and hope the whole thing goes away.

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I'm sorry but that is a summary of both your posts here and of your govt's various statements. You and your govt. began with a major credibility deficit and have through diligent fuckery destroyed most of what you had left, by which I don't simply mean the matter of goodwill but rather things like knowing what you want, understanding legal aspects of Brexit-related issues, proposing workable ideas consistent with reality and with each other etc. Throughout the negotiation process your govt. has ignored reality in the hope that it will go away, and at every step it's gotten a predictably rude awakening, immediately followed by a mind-wipe.

Never mind the EU--just look at the repeated failures to prepare your own nation and citizens for Brexit as a result of being too ignorant, incompetent and irresponsible to face reality. Taking the border as an example, govt. seems incapable of dealing with the inconvenient fact that the implementation of any solution that is a departure from the present state of cross-border trade will necessarily cost hundreds of millions of pounds, require recruiting and training thousands of new govt. employees and take years.

I'm sorry RB but you're not fooling anyone here. It's very clear that the UK has no credibility, does not have the ability to deal with the issues, and still hasn't gotten its head out of the sand--or its ass, as it were.

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Originally Posted by Unheard Of

It's because they are really stupid.

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http://justwriting.eu/?p=1012

They are smart :o

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Cameron weakened himself in the negotiations by not being credible in threatening to back Leave himself if he didn't get what he was after. Cameron essentially said we'd keep paying the tab regardless of what we get. Now we're actually leaving and that's a gamechanger, if you want something from us then you need to give us something worth having - and vice-versa.

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Cameron didn't get what he wanted because we were not willing to consider giving it. In no version of the possible outcomes of those negotiations were we to accept the British solution for a that simply did not exist outside of the UK.

And FYI your own government admitted before the negotiations even started there was no serious reason for them at all.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

I'm sorry but that is a summary of both your posts here and of your govt's various statements. You and your govt. began with a major credibility deficit and have through diligent fuckery destroyed most of what you had left, by which I don't simply mean the matter of goodwill but rather things like knowing what you want, understanding legal aspects of Brexit-related issues, proposing workable ideas consistent with reality and with each other etc. Throughout the negotiation process your govt. has ignored reality in the hope that it will go away, and at every step it's gotten a predictably rude awakening, immediately followed by a mind-wipe.

Never mind the EU--just look at the repeated failures to prepare your own nation and citizens for Brexit as a result of being too ignorant, incompetent and irresponsible to face reality. Taking the border as an example, govt. seems incapable of dealing with the inconvenient fact that the implementation of any solution that is a departure from the present state of cross-border trade will necessarily cost hundreds of millions of pounds, require recruiting and training thousands of new govt. employees and take years.

I'm sorry RB but you're not fooling anyone here. It's very clear that the UK has no credibility, does not have the ability to deal with the issues, and still hasn't gotten its head out of the sand--or its ass, as it were.

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I'm not suggesting that the government is doing a good job, its not. I have zero faith or confidence in Theresa May. Part of the problem is that we have a PM who opposed Brexit trying to implement it like she has the zeal of the convert - and I don't think she even understands why many of us voted as we did. So she's leapt on to a couple of issues like migration and is then just flailing around.

The best PM would have been Gove. He understands the issues.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Cameron didn't get what he wanted because we were not willing to consider giving it. In no version of the possible outcomes of those negotiations were we to accept the British solution for a that simply did not exist outside of the UK.

And FYI your own government admitted before the negotiations even started there was no serious reason for them at all.

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And that is why Cameron failed. There was a serious reason for them, they just didn't believe in it. Don't go into negotiations if you don't believe in it, that's dumb.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

http://justwriting.eu/?p=1012

They are smart :o

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That's ... quite extraordinary. :bulb:

Question Time last night. So disheartening to see so many people applaud every lie and untruth from Farage.

My faith and respect for this country is at an all time low :(