Yes, this happens to every celebrity. Now remind me what the conviction rate for such people is.
Printable View
Yes, this happens to every celebrity. Now remind me what the conviction rate for such people is.
Oh, you want to talk about the dichotomy of 'faking equality for all' and actual inequality in your legal system? That may be a bit too broad in a topic about an individual being probably falsely accused of rape.
Or do you mean that you're going to hold to your opinion that he raped her but won't be found guilty because of the faults in your legal system? Acquittal won't clean him of the stain of being a rapist?
Unlike you, I have no bone in the race. I don't care if the guy is found guilty or non-guilty. I just want DSK to go through the same judicial process as everyone else.
I was simply making the observation that our system is far more likely to lead to the acquittal of a famous person who's really guilty than to lead to the conviction of a famous person who's really innocent.
What makes you think I have any special interest. I simply don't believe that woman and am reacting to the deluge of 'oh the poor little thing' and 'see that fat cat' bla bla mixed in with anti-french jingoism. While I am watching TV.
Sounds more like your problem is with the media.
Understandable actually...our media tends towards jackassery.
You don't start a thread in order to carry out a campaign of character assassination and well poisoning against a potential rape-victim just on the off-chance that they might be lying. Obviously, you have some special interest and everyone on the forum knows what it is (in some retarded fashion you perceive this as some kind of attack on Europe/the EU), so please don't insult the intelligence of everyone here by pretending that this is just about you disbelieving the maid's side of the story.Quote:
What makes you think I have any special interest. I simply don't believe that woman and am reacting to the deluge of 'oh the poor little thing' and 'see that fat cat' bla bla mixed in with anti-french jingoism. While I am watching TV.
i haven't been paying attention, is the maid's character being assassinated? In forums that have a larger audience than this one I mean (ie. the media). Is this case playing out in a way similar to other high profile rape trials?
Wow, you're speculating quite a lot there. Why so suspicious? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
The defense might make those claims and suggest DSK is the "victim" of a set-up, to introduce "reasonable doubt". But they'll have to do more than just suggest it---facts and witnesses will have to corroborate it. That's what trials are for. The jury selection will be rigorous (especially because of the press coverage) but that's what voir dire is for.
News today reported his DNA was found on her blouse (his semen), and her DNA was found in two places on the carpet (where she spat), after he tried to force her into oral sex. This will all be sorted out in the trial. It's surprising you don't think police and detectives have any forensic evidence to back up the charges, just her unbelievable claims and she said/he said. Not many sexual assault cases would get to trial that way, and not many victims are willing to be put under a microscope with nothing more than their accusation.
Y'know, these kinds of charges rarely (if ever) lead to a trial if it's just the victim saying, "He did this to me, believe me, trust me." Let alone a conviction. Yet you don't trust or believe her, the police, OR the prosecutors? :rolleyes:
Our legal system has problems, but "little people" being believed when they're assaulted isn't usually one of them. Everyone deserves their day in court. Once VIPs are arrested and charged, or detained, they can afford to buy the best defense. They'll also use the press and media. Seriously, this sounds like sour grapes about America, using your low opinion of our elected DAs and public prosecutors, and our free press and media.....to be judge and jury across the pond. Because you can't fathom the charges may be true, it's just a parade and circus to you. :donkey:Quote:
I can also tell you that it's no use trying to convince me to the contrary on the basis of the crazy idea that your legal system is more fair to 'the little people' just because people whose jobs depend on votes parade VIPs in front of a dozen of camera's just to show off how tough they really really really are.
Too bad for you then that I simply think she's a gold digging liar. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
Now let's point out how you create a guilty out of the fact that there was sperm found and that she claims it was the sperm she spit out after being orally raped. See where you write 'after he tried to force her into oral sex? Interesting how you can TRY to force someone into oral sex and still get your sperm into her mouth :)Quote:
Originally Posted by GGT
I don't trust any part of your legal system :) And obviously am right not to trust any part of it. I see people playing tough for political gains, but then Loki tells me that the system is biased in the favour of rich people. :D
Not as far as I'm aware. I haven't paid much attention to the media frenzy either (he either did it or he didn't, and we have no way of knowing which), I'm simply referring to Hazir's conduct in this thread, and his motives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Sure. That was why you were talking on the first page about false charges being used to destroy a European appointee of a large organization. That was why you made this thread to tell us that, in your opinion, a woman who accused a powerful man of rape is a gold digging liar based on absolutely nothing. Nothing to do with Dominique Strauss-Kahn being (essentially) a French aristocrat in a position which makes him an avatar of European soft-power, and you having such a bizarre, jingoistic attitude about the European Union that it wouldn't be out of date if found in one of the European colonial empires of old*.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
I think my assertion that you are a liar is a lot more firmly grounded here than your assertion that she is.
* If this weren't America but a third world nation I can seriously see you demanding we send gunboats.
Uh, I said her DNA (sputum) was found on carpet, where she spat, after he ALLEGEDLY tried to sodomize her. You're the one reading all sorts of things into he said/she said. :donkey:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Rich people can afford better attorneys, that's true. Sometimes innocent people are wrongly convicted, that's true, too. DSK will have the best defense money can buy, so his innocence should be pretty easy to prove, shouldn't it. The way you pick and choose who's the victim here is....weird, Hazir. Almost like you expected diplomatic immunity to apply to DSK, because he's such an important European.Quote:
I don't trust any part of your legal system :) And obviously am right not to trust any part of it. I see people playing tough for political gains, but then Loki tells me that the system is biased in the favour of rich people. :D
This is definitely the kind of sentence that needs a smiley at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Can we agree that even when we think a specific woman accusing a man of rape is a gold-digging liar there are good reasons for not being douchey about it? Just like there are good reasons for not automatically making life hell for everyone who's accused of rape?
Out of curiosity, is there a great deal of money in this for her lawyer?
Hazir might be coming across as an ignorant dumbass, but I do like how he brought out the hypocrisy of certain users when you compare their claims here to their early comments about the Julian Assange accusations.
But that makes no sense. It doesn't really feed into that pathological bias he has against Britain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
Jesus, Hazir. :bulb:
:rolleyes: Okay, alleged rape victim. I've said earlier in the thread (in fact my first post) that this entire discussion was ridiculous since we didn't have enough information and that hopefully the truth would come out during court (I'll say it again: I do not know DSK is guilty). That's miles apart from deciding a woman who accuses a man of rape is lying just because you feel it's true. That's a very damaging and frankly insulting position to take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Yet in your mind she was already a 'rape victim', and I am pretty certain that you're not the only one in the US who needs to have this pointed out with the way this case is treated. From the perp walk, to the 'he was a sleazebaal anyway' report to the 'we protect our little people' comments to the way you're being told now how common the rape of hotel staff actually is.Quote:
Originally Posted by wiggin
As for that woman; the only way I am not going to think she's lying is if there is convincing evidence that what was being fed tous during the first hours after the arrest is not based in her account of what transpired. I am very suspicious of 'rape-victims' who are too detailed in their account.
I have the feeling if she had been vague you would have been very suspicious of her not having a more clear account of the searing trauma she had 'supposedly' experienced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Honestly, Hazir, what is wrong with you? Yes, she was a 'rape victim' in my mind for the simple reason that it's common in civilized society to actually believe a woman when she makes such a claim. In the not-too-distant past, a woman was ignored or disbelieved if she accused someone of rape. Women had virtually no protections under the law, and the indifferent reception they were likely to receive upon making such an accusation generally kept them from doing so. I believe that it is incumbent upon us to take such charges very seriously and work under the assumption that they are true, and act accordingly (i.e. arrest the alleged perpetrator and do a thorough investigation).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
As for the rest, really? Really? There have been some distasteful bits in the media, no question. But I have been shocked at some of the things that have come out of the French and European media, and your diatribes here haven't been too far below the shit that BHL was spewing.
Why? Honestly, I can't possibly see a reason for you to be calling her a liar (rather than taking a 'wait and see' attitude) unless you are irrationally convinced of DSK's innocence.Quote:
As for that woman; the only way I am not going to think she's lying is if there is convincing evidence that what was being fed tous during the first hours after the arrest is not based in her account of what transpired. I am very suspicious of 'rape-victims' who are too detailed in their account.
Or uhm have problems with people who accuse people of rape
It's interesting though. By saying we should believe her by default we're saying we should assume the accused is guilty by default. I'm inclined to agree that people who may have been raped should not be met with scorn and skepticism by default, but when it gets to the point where we implicityly have to assume from the outset that the accused is guilty it makes me uncomfortable.
Innocent until proven guilty is not such a bad concept after all.
But I don't agree with Hazir that we have nearly enough information to assume her lying so far.
You, nor anybody has to agree with me of course. I know it's a mere gut feeling about the alleged victim.Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
What I find disturbing is that what is just as much a gut feeling, leads a lot of people to talk about this case as if it is certain that he's guilty, then as an afterthought throw in the assumption of innocence.
Assuming the woman is a rape victim is wrong. Treating the woman as a lying whore because you don't understand rape is wrong too.
Alleged is a pretty important word in these here dicussions.
(emphasis added) This may be where the disconnect is. Treating a woman's rape accusation seriously and following through on the justice system is entirely different from presupposing guilt on the part of the alleged perpetrator. But you're also assuming guilt on the part of the accuser if you just dismiss her allegations as outright lies that are an attempt to make some settlement money. It's nonsensical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
I don't think you'll be able to find many people (on this thread or elsewhere) who are sure of DSK's guilt, though they may be prejudiced towards the 'underdog', but Hazir here and many others seem to be sure of his innocence and thus completely dismiss the allegations. That's the problem.
Ditto to what I said above.Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker
You make it sound like the hotel maid made a false accusation, snapper her fingers, and Sofitel, the NYPD and DA's office immediately arrested DSK, then called the press so the "perp walk" could be transmitted across the globe! Because, y'know, Americans just want to defame 'DSK the sleazeball Frenchman', and show the world how our system protects the little people. And you don't see anything wrong with your perspective? Man, that's twisted. :bulb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
You can't both hate our open press, AND complain about what was "fed to you during the first hours" by the press, AND use the press to condemn our legal system.
What the hell....?Quote:
you're being told now how common the rape of hotel staff actually is.
That's fucked up.Quote:
I am very suspicious of 'rape-victims' who are too detailed in their account.
So just because she claims she was raped she is somehow more reliable than if she had said he had tried to kill her? Just because you and Wiggin buy into feminist shit about rape doesn't mean I have to.
Over the last few days I have read 3 separate pieces on the NYT site that relate to this affair. Or do you really want me to believe that it's a coincidence that they started printing articles and opinions about the dangers of working as a chamber maid?
As for the final point; there are more than enough examples of horrible rape stories that turned out to be mere fabrications. They have in common that the 'victim' are giving it to the interrogators in living colours.
@OG; you appear to be taken in by the attempts of wiggin to log me in with people like Levi who can't concieve of a man like DSK being capable of raping a woman. He may very well be such a man, but I seriously doubt he did it in this particular case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
You're an idiot Hazir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Seriously, you see this as some type of FEMINIST SHIT? WTF is up with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
What you've read in the press (whether it's US or European sources) is only relevant in triggering pre-existing bias. Your biases are quite clear, and it's disturbing on so many levels. You don't believe women's rape charges, you automatically assume a hotel maid is a gold-digger making false accusations against a VIP French banker/politician, you don't believe the US legal system is legitimate, you don't believe our press or media.....yet you make sweeping, premature judgments about all of this, based on what you've read in the press?
This has turned rather ugly, Hazir. Perhaps you should change the title of this thread or start a new one.