No, I meant exactly what I said tax evasion is not a crime in Switzerland it is classed misdemeanor punishable by a fine thus not subject to anti money laundering measures which target only the crimes punishable by over 3 years in prison.
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No, I meant exactly what I said tax evasion is not a crime in Switzerland it is classed misdemeanor punishable by a fine thus not subject to anti money laundering measures which target only the crimes punishable by over 3 years in prison.
It might not be a felony, but being classed a misdemeanor surely makes it a crime, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian
The banks haven't made anything that is illegal in Switzerland. Again you are proving my point. The US is pretty much in the same situation as Switzerland is with the bank data. The US can't force Germany to hand them over a guy that has done nothing that is illegal in Germany and that revealed things that are illegal in Germany. The problem for Snowden is, he wont make it to Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
The Swiss law has three cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Tax fraud = Illegal, official delic
Tax evasion = Illegal, only fined (like a speed ticked on the road)
Tax avoidance = legal
So far the Swiss courts only tax fraud as an international delict. With the pressure of the OECD tax avasion will probably have the same status.
The question is, if the tax law will be changed for Swiss residents too. So far you are not seen as "criminal" if you forgot to declare all your assets. Only willingly wrong numbert where sean as fraud.
Swiss law separates crimes and misdemeanor so no would not make it a crime, might be the translation issue in any case it would not fall under something banks would need to report either for a Swiss resident or a Foreign one.Quote:
It might not be a felony, but being classed a misdemeanor surely makes it a crime, no?
Not a sure thing, I expect them to drag the debate for several years and then many things may change, as we saw with the recent vote on US disclosure Switzerland is finding its backbone.Quote:
With the pressure of the OECD tax avasion will probably have the same status.
The banks have not done anything illegal according to any law as as far as I know the country can not project its laws on another countries territory. If Swiss bar sells a beer to 16 year old US tourist it is not breaking any laws despite the fact that the tourist is not of legal age in US to buy a beer. German customers may have broken a German law but frankly that's between them and the German authorities.Quote:
The banks haven't made anything that is illegal in Switzerland.
What the Swiss bank did, they broke the law in the USA with their subsidiaries on US soil. That's an entire different story. As soon as they are on US soil it the US rules, and I don't pity any bank that got into trouble because of that.
Evading Swiss taxes is not a Swiss public crime. That's the point, if it was it would only be fair to tread German taxes the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flixy
so a democratic population shouldn't have the right to know how their elected officials and those they appoint treat their allies and supposed enemies? Or how such a program is so wide in its scope its pretty much a guilty until proven American when it comes to data collection?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
cause from what I've seen so far across the tv, net, and print... Americans are, at the very least, interested.
What you're saying is that democracies shouldn't engage in espionage or engage in any non-public agreements. :bored:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Well over here all agreements need to be ratified by the people, I think it's the same for Ireland.
Right, so Swiss intelligence doesn't have any projects whose exact details are unknown to the public?
It does, I didn't left out the espionage part by accident. But the public opinion about it is quite different than in the US. We had our PRISM already: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal
So yes the information gathered are still not openly accessed. But I don't see how a the government could engage in a non public agreement with another legal body outside of Switzerland without breaking the constitution.
I wasn't referring to PRISM. I was referring to Snowden's revelations about exact spying techniques used against the EU, China, and Russia. OG seems to think the public has a right to know those details.
I actually think it has. The public can't look into every document, that would clearly contradict the very idea it. But the public has the very right to define the bounds and means of the agencies. And therefore they have the rights to know any violation of those bounds.
It's easily possible to leak such violation without leaking the actually classified information.
Shame that Snowden revealed the actual details, including the exact tools and places used to gather the information. I fail to see how the public has a right to know those details.
Depends on the tools and places. Are they within or outside the legal bounds.
Relevant Congressional Committees have oversight. There are also no constitutional prohibitions about spying on foreigners.
If you trust them. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Loki
How can something be illegal if Congress approves and it doesn't violate the Constitution?
Is just not illegal where we are setting the bar?
Do you think the public needs to know all the dirty details of diplomacy and espionage? Perhaps we can have a public file with all the people on the CIA payroll?
Sigh...okay Professor Extreme...
What Snowden did was only one step removed from this...
I, for one, would actually prefer there not to be so much dirt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Not if its not been authorised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I don't know anyone shocked by the notion the USA may be spying on Russia, terrorists etc - but spying on Americans (explicitly told no to Congress) and European embassies was news.
If America wants to say "we will be spying on everyone including our allies and our own citizens" then this wouldn't be news, but that's not being said. So don't get pissed off when someone reveals its happening.
It was all authorized by the relevant Congressional committees...Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
I'm sure the Russians and Chinese would happy to hear that. It would make their own spying programs all the more effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch the Red
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/wo...e/snowden.html
Clearly NSA intelligence isn't as good as people claim. :o
Well said. As I see it, intelligence services are a necessary evil. So let's keep this evil as small as possible (necessary).Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch the Red
We can't use oppressive regimes as standard for our acting. Same could be do about child labor or torture, wait you do the latter too.Quote:
I'm sure the Russians and Chinese would happy to hear that.
Why are you conflating what countries do to their own people and what they do to other governments? :confused:
The NSA spies on it's own people. And other countries people. Governments spying on each other is not that much of my concern, actually.
Can I get a source on that please because I quoted the opposite earlier and you've not rebutted it this entire time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
If its all authorised why did Clapper lie?Quote:
Source I quoted earlier
“I do think that when history looks at this, they are going to contrast the behavior of James Clapper, our national intelligence director, with Edward Snowden,” Paul told CNN’s Candy Crowley. “Mr. Clapper lied in Congress, in defiance of the law, in the name of security. Mr. Snowden told the truth in the name of privacy. So I think there will be a judgment, because both of them broke of the law.”
Clapper was asked by Oregon senator Ron Wyden in a March congressional hearing whether the government was collecting “any type of data at all on millions of Americans.” He responded, “No, sir.”
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...ata-collection
So, you may commit perjury in front of congress, you just have to be "sorry".
Why is the US government (and Loki) so keen on prosecuting Snowden but not Clapper?
They both broke the law so why is only one the devil incarnate?
I'm a Conservative/libertarian not a fan of big government so I sympathise with this completely. If Big Government is lying about its actions then I sympathise with someone telling the truth - via the media.Quote:
"It was seeing a continuing litany of lies from senior officials to Congress - and therefore the American people - and the realization that that Congress, specifically the Gang of Eight, wholly supported the lies that compelled me to act. Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy. The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed."
Much of Loki's arguments seem to be around the lines of "it inconveniences big government". So do organisations campaigning for reform/abolition of the IRS but you wouldn't see the government/IRS persecuting them would you? Oh wait ...
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1...ll-return-home
The Bolivian president's plane was forced to divert to Austria after it was denied airspace over a rumour Edward Snowden was on board, sparking a row.
I think it's more or less a "us" and "them" thinking. If you cheer for a football team and one of "your" players uses his hands to score it's an act of "the hand of god" if it was a player of the opposite team you want him to see red and go of the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
But as a football fan you need to have a blind and unconditional trust in your own team to be so fanatic to even defend your own teams mistakes. I don't have blind faith in my team (my government). I do trust them, but not blindly.
Furthermore it is quite irrelevant whether what they did was legal or not in the US, some of this data gathering took place outside their jurisdiction. In fact US agency broke laws of many countries so in essence US government is the criminal, several other countries are victims and Snowden is the witness that came forward to report the crime. And before you say it, yes I know every country is spying on every other country and its allies but it is some real lunacy that the country caught spying is outraged that countries it was spying on wont hand over the guy who revealed it all.
Loki's beef is that it shows disloyalty and (in his view) jeopardizes national security (which is for all practical purposes Loki's god). When it comes to national security, an individual can do no right that goes against the wishes and actions of the govt.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Loyalty is a two-way street. I'd consider lying to Congress/Parliament to be disloyal too which is why its rightly illegal. Snowden's disloyalty came after Clapper's.
I'm curious if those persecuted by the IRS for daring to campaign against the IRS falls within the same category of inconveniencing the apparatchiks must be stopped.
I believe the government is there to serve the people not the other way around. I'm confused as I thought Loki believed that too.
Loki, you didn't express the same attitude in the Checks and Balances thread (where NSA challenges began, citing 'oversight' from congress). :donkey:
I don't have a problem with arresting Clapper for lying to Congress.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
I'm not personally interested in being the top dog at all costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
You'd prefer to allow the intelligence services of hostile countries to do as they will? Clearly that would not be a threat to our freedom or well-being.