TRUMP 2016

It's true that racism existed before this election, and it's got deep social and cultural roots. (Recall the hoopla over the Confederate flag?) What's disturbing now is that white supremacy/white nationalism was emboldened by Trump because of how he ran his campaign, and that started during the run-up to the (R) convention. His comments were either so outrageous or "code" -- is that why so many people thought he wouldn't win?

Unfortunately, it's showing up in our schools. We had an incident at one of our vo-tech high schools where students walked through the halls with a Trump sign shouting, "White Power!" The state police had to be called in, classes were cancelled, so far 5 kids have been expelled, investigation continues. :(

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Nobody with a sense of sanity would do what this "manager" did. I'd feel sick to the stomach if one of my employees acted in such a disgusting manner. Let's not excuse his behaviour by suggesting its due to politics.
So the US has gone from one anti-Muslim hate crime ratio of 0.558 per million of population, to 0.944 per million of population. Not nice, but most of those crimes would still have happened had it not been for that spike.

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Okay, now you do have a point that there isn't really much reliable data about this, but your position is seriously that it's no big deal as long as it less than doubles? :bulb: If the murder rate would increase 99% would you also say "not nice, but most of those murders would have happened anyway"?

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Originally Posted by Flixy

Okay, now you do have a point that there isn't really much reliable data about this, but your position is seriously that it's no big deal as long as it less than doubles? :bulb: If the murder rate would increase 99% would you also say "not nice, but most of those murders would have happened anyway"?

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I NEVER said it's no big deal.

I said the claim made in the article that this specific individual occurrence would not have occurred had it not been for the vote is bollocks.

If the murder rate increased 99% it would not be nice. If someone claimed (with no extra evidence) that a specific murder would not have happened were it not for the 99% increases then the stats don't support that claim.

Randblade, the guy was wearing a fucking Trump hat.

And why do you feel the need to do this incessant nitpicking whenever someone brings up a racial incident (unless it's inside the Labour party)?

Because he's wearing huge-ass horseblinders.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

Randblade, the guy was wearing a fucking Trump hat.

And why do you feel the need to do this incessant nitpicking whenever someone brings up a racial incident (unless it's inside the Labour party)?

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So let me get this straight: A random racist shithead is wearing a hat worn by racist shitheads in support of a political racist shithead.

And that's meant to be proof positive that the political racist shithead has made this random racist shithead a racist? Maybe he was just a racist shithead beforehand? Maybe his pre-existing racism made him support the racist and not the other way around?

I feel the need to nitpick because I don't like falsehoods being spread. Its the same with the Labour Party - the problem there is not that the antisemitic racist shitheads have created antisemitism, it's that they're endorsing, embracing and spreading it. That's why I oppose the racists in both Labour and the GOP.

Trump's election didn't create racism. It doesn't mean all Trump voters are racists. It does mean that all Trump voters decided that racism is not a dealbreaker though.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Unfortunately, it's showing up in our schools. We had an incident at one of our vo-tech high schools where students walked through the halls with a Trump sign shouting, "White Power!" The state police had to be called in, classes were cancelled, so far 5 kids have been expelled, investigation continues. :(

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Yet if a student shouts Black Power its a non-event. :| Rules for thee but not for me, right?

That being said regardless of the signs or what they were saying morons disrupting class should be dealt with harshly so I'm glad the idiots were punished.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

It doesn't mean all Trump voters are racists. It does mean that all Trump voters decided that racism is not a dealbreaker though.

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This does not exactly parse.

What part are you struggling with?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

And that's meant to be proof positive that the political racist shithead has made this random racist shithead a racist? Maybe he was just a racist shithead beforehand? Maybe his pre-existing racism made him support the racist and not the other way around?

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No? No-one said that. No one thinks that Donald Trump invented racism. You're just making up strawmen in order to derail the conversation, you do it every time the topic turns to incidents racism, it's super-weird and you need to stop it.

Like, when you've spoken in the past on here about your encounters with criminality no one says "Well, acktulllllly, this type of event is super rare" or "there's no proof that all unemployed people do this", we say "well that sucks", "hope you're ok" and "wow, the area you live in is straight out of Mad Max".

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I feel the need to nitpick because I don't like falsehoods being spread.

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What falsehoods are these, exactly?

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It doesn't mean all Trump voters are racists. It does mean that all Trump voters decided that racism is not a dealbreaker though.

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Arguably, their total indifference to the rights and even basic safety of their fellow citizens is a form of racism. It's not as if that sort of speech would have been considered acceptable if it were aimed at anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

No? No-one said that. No one thinks that Donald Trump invented racism. You're just making up strawmen in order to derail the conversation, you do it every time the topic turns to incidents racism, it's super-weird and you need to stop it.

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Yes it was said actually. Seems you never bothered to read the article Loki linked to which I responded to. So you're plain wrong and I don't derail the conversation when the topic turns to racism. I've disagreed with you about the cause of violence when it comes to allegedly politically inspired racism, and alleged police and criminal violence. That's not a general thing. I without caveat criticise racist fucktards like this - thinking he was a racist fucktard last Monday is not a derailment.

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Walker told the Dallas Morning News that he felt the election had “changed the hearts” of people.
“I do believe that the election has changed the hearts and changed the motives of people so much so that he believed in his heart and mind after talking to the Trump supporter that I was stealing food,” Walker said.

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What he did was appalling but do I think it was done due to his heart and motives being changed by the election? No I don't, I suspect his heart had hate in it before Tuesday and he was a shithead before then. Being a moron has nothing to do with this week's news it has to do with being a moron.

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Like, when you've spoken in the past on here about your encounters with criminality no one says "Well, acktulllllly, this type of event is super rare" or "there's no proof that all unemployed people do this", we say "well that sucks", "hope you're ok" and "wow, the area you live in is straight out of Mad Max".

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Well one is about a personal experience, the other is linking to news stories about people we don't know with political speculation. You don't think they're the same do you?

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What falsehoods are these, exactly?

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That "hearts were changed" by the election.

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Arguably, their total indifference to the rights and even basic safety of their fellow citizens is a form of racism. It's not as if that sort of speech would have been considered acceptable if it were aimed at anyone else.

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Wouldn't it?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

What part are you struggling with?

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If you are indifferent to racism going on I'll happily count you as a racist. With stuff like sexism, racism, fascism and a number of assorted -isms it's a pretty easy case: If you aren't against it you're for it.

Except that life is more complicated than that.

I supported Hillary because of Trump's racism, but I know people who opposed Hillary because they viewed her as corrupt. To me and others both corruption and racism are bad, but for some racism is not a dealbreaker if the alternative is corruption.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Yes it was said actually. Seems you never bothered to read the article Loki linked to which I responded to. So you're plain wrong and I don't derail the conversation when the topic turns to racism. I've disagreed with you about the cause of violence when it comes to allegedly politically inspired racism, and alleged police and criminal violence. That's not a general thing. I without caveat criticise racist fucktards like this - thinking he was a racist fucktard last Monday is not a derailment.
What he did was appalling but do I think it was done due to his heart and motives being changed by the election? No I don't, I suspect his heart had hate in it before Tuesday and he was a shithead before then. Being a moron has nothing to do with this week's news it has to do with being a moron.

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You have a very simplistic view of what racism is and how it works. It's just some binary thing where people are either outright klan members or pure and totally free of any form of racial prejudice. The dude may or may not have had racial prejudice in his heart before the election, but it's hardly an unreasonable stretch to say that he felt emboldened to act on his prejudices by a guy saying the same things running for president and then winning.

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Well one is about a personal experience, the other is linking to news stories about people we don't know with political speculation. You don't think they're the same do you?

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Most non-white people have had similar experiences at some point in their life, and depending on where they live, quite a lot more often than that so you would do well to be less dismissive.

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Wouldn't it?

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Remember when Romney said 47% of Americans who pay no federal income tax were scroungers and that was a big fucking deal and seriously hurt his campaign, and how Trump said 10 things that were 10 times worse, like, every week of the campaign and he still won?

So, apparently, it wouldn't.

Once again, being a racist and overtly expressing one's racism in public are two different things, and what seems have occurred after both Brexit and this election is a surge in overt expressions of racism and xenophobia. This hasn't been confirmed through scientific analyses using high-quality data and sophisticated statistical methods so we're forced to use our very small brains to analyze the situation on the fly instead.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

If the murder rate increased 99% it would not be nice. If someone claimed (with no extra evidence) that a specific murder would not have happened were it not for the 99% increases then the stats don't support that claim.

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This is verging on the bad kind of sophistry. In the individual case it's difficult to say, but you can reason about probable and less probable causes. In the aggregate a more persuasive case can be made.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

You have a very simplistic view of what racism is and how it works. It's just some binary thing where people are either outright klan members or pure and totally free of any form of racial prejudice. The dude may or may not have had racial prejudice in his heart before the election, but it's hardly an unreasonable stretch to say that he felt emboldened to act on his prejudices by a guy saying the same things running for president and then winning.

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It's also not an unreasonable stretch to say he may have been a jackass before now and had we not been paying attention he could have done this without us noticing.

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Most non-white people have had similar experiences at some point in their life, and depending on where they live, quite a lot more often than that so you would do well to be less dismissive.

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You'd do well to get some read comprehension. Or just do some reading. I wasn't dismissive I said it was appalling.

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Remember when Romney said 47% of Americans who pay no federal income tax were scroungers and that was a big fucking deal and seriously hurt his campaign, and how Trump said 10 things that were 10 times worse, like, every week of the campaign and he still won?

So, apparently, it wouldn't.

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Romney would have beaten Hillary too though, he just couldn't beat Obama. Trump didn't win the election as much as Hillary lost it.

Had people turned out to vote for Hillary like they had for Obama then Trump would have lost. They didn't.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Except that life is more complicated than that.

I supported Hillary because of Trump's racism, but I know people who opposed Hillary because they viewed her as corrupt. To me and others both corruption and racism are bad, but for some racism is not a dealbreaker if the alternative is corruption.

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The fun part then becomes how in the hell they're not viewing Trump as corrupt as well. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Once again, being a racist and overtly expressing one's racism in public are two different things, and what seems have occurred after both Brexit and this election is a surge in overt expressions of racism and xenophobia. This hasn't been confirmed through scientific analyses using high-quality data and sophisticated statistical methods so we're forced to use our very small brains to analyze the situation on the fly instead.

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A surge that the evidence I've seen is rather exaggerated. Turnouts out jackasses are consistent.

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This is verging on the bad kind of sophistry. In the individual case it's difficult to say, but you can reason about probable and less probable causes. In the aggregate a more persuasive case can be made.

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Indeed the probable cause of this was racist dickhead acting like a racist dickhead. The probable cause is not politics. Let's tackle the racist dickheads and not bemoan that we lost the vote so all is lost.

What?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

It's also not an unreasonable stretch to say he may have been a jackass before now and had we not been paying attention he could have done this without us noticing.

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And the documented increase in hate-crimes just days after election, just a coincidence?

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You'd do well to get some read comprehension. Or just do some reading. I wasn't dismissive I said it was appalling.

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The figurative but immediately afterwards tells us your real motive is to cast doubt on the existence of systematic racism, cast all racist incidents as just one-off assholes and the 'it's appalling' but was just ass-covering.

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Romney would have beaten Hillary too though, he just couldn't beat Obama. Trump didn't win the election as much as Hillary lost it.

Had people turned out to vote for Hillary like they had for Obama then Trump would have lost. They didn't.

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If Romney was running against Hillary and he'd have made the stream of gaffs that Trump made, but aimed at the same people his tax remarks were aimed at, he'd have been toast.

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

The fun part then becomes how in the hell they're not viewing Trump as corrupt as well. Oh well.

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You can blame the media for that one. There are plenty of shady money stories about Trump, but the media decided not to cover them extensively, in favour of what a whacky guy Trump was and Clinton's e-mails.

Hate crime statistics contain a lot of nonsense and twaddle.

And you wonder why people say you're dismissive of hate crimes.

But I'm right.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Hate crime statistics contain a lot of nonsense and twaddle.

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I don't know RB, the same can be said of most of your posts as well. We have to work with what we've got.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

But I'm right.

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At this point you've basically said that you think racism is not a political issue, just a case of individual unpleasant people being unpleasant, so your thoughts on this matter are venturing into "not even wrong" territory.

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

And you wonder why people say you're dismissive of hate crimes.

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I stand by my point: The guy being dismissive about racism is a racist himself. Not a full-blown KKK member, true, but one of those guys who actually let atrocities happen.

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

I stand by my point: The guy being dismissive about racism is a racist himself. Not a full-blown KKK member, true, but one of those guys who actually let atrocities happen.

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Well, no... not in the sense of actively holding prejudiced views about people of other races.

But yes... in the sense of not being a minority himself but being unwilling to listen to minorities when they describe their lived experience of. e.g. problems with the police or racial abuse from random strangers and writing off these incidents as one-off "bad apples", when the people who're actually on the receiving end of these experiences on a regular basis know they're anything but.

If only there were some other word we could use, rather than 'racism', perhaps beginning with p, to describe this phenomena which hopefully people wouldn't get super-defensive about!

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

If you are indifferent to racism going on I'll happily count you as a racist. With stuff like sexism, racism, fascism and a number of assorted -isms it's a pretty easy case: If you aren't against it you're for it.

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Ah. If you're not with us, you're against us. So tell me, Khend, why were you an advocate for Ba'athist genocides? Because you were most certainly against the attempt to oust the Iraqi Ba'athist regime. You monster.

Has anyone run the numbers on whether or not the Iraq war saved lives and made the world a better place by any semi-objective metric?