World Cup 2010

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Originally Posted by Steely Glint

For example, suppose Superclub FC has 3 English starters and 8 foreigners, you would take this as support for your argument until you look at the breakdown:

3 English
2 Italian
1 Brazilian
2 Spaniards
1 Dutchman
1 German
1 Croat

You find that England is not "underrepresented" at all. Teams like Manchester United et al are global business empires and can afford to have the pick of the best players from the whole world - that is why they only have 2 or 3 Englishmen playing.

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So let's see, the best players in England are not English. The best players in Germany are German, the best players in France are French, the best players in Spain are Spanish, and the best players in Italy are Italian. You can't dominate your own league, and then you wonder why England isn't the best team in the world...

And stop it with the ridiculous "this doesn't matter because the Premiership is the best league in the world" crap. It might be the best, but not by a wide margin. The Spanish and Italians seem to attract world-class talent just fine. The only real difference is that the mediocre English teams have better talent than the mediocre Italian and Spanish ones.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Anyone who relies on cultural explanations needs to be shot. Seriously. It's the worst ad hoc explanation ever devised.

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I disagree

Exhibit a:

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Originally Posted by Loki

How about just using Occam's razor? Instead of wondering why England underperforms every single time, perhaps one can reach the easy conclusion that English players just aren't as good as the English think they are.

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Originally Posted by Loki

And stop it with the ridiculous "this doesn't matter because the Premiership is the best league in the world" crap. It might be the best, but not by a wide margin. The Spanish and Italians seem to attract world-class talent just fine. The only real difference is that the mediocre English teams have better talent than the mediocre Italian and Spanish ones.

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By best, I mean 'richest'. Look at the number of English teams: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/34/Rank_1.html

And that "the best players in spain are spanish and the best players in italy are italian" thing is arse, too.

The spanish league is a two-horse race between barca and real. Barca happen to have a committment to developing local talent and so have a large number of high-quality native players. (distorted by the fact that they can claim the entire catalonia region as "theirs" for local scouting). Even so, their best players are Xabi, Iniesta, Messi and Ibrahimavic. Messi is argentine and Ibra is swedish.

Now, if we move to Real, what do we see? Ronaldo? Portugese. Kaka? Brazilian. Benzema? French.

Champions league winning italian team inter milans number of italian players? None

Bayern Munich, runners up in the champions league? Of their best players, arguably the two best, Robben and Ribery, are dutch and french. And this from a league that traditionally doesnt import pleyers in significant numbers.

Now, we can argue if these are really "the best" in each league, but regardless, its pretty clear that your statement that "the best players in the spanish league are spanish, the best players in the italian league are italian..." is wrong

Best players in the world: Lionel Messi and Christiano Ronaldo. Messi is an argentine and Ronaldo is a portugese and both play in spain.

http://soccerlens.com/uefa-football-...ar-2008/20925/
http://soccerlens.com/uefa-football-...ar-2009/39655/

How many Englishmen there?

As for your picking and choosing which part of La Liga to emphasize, out of the league's 4 main awards were given to Spaniards (with the other two to Messi), and except for goals scored, they dominate all the statistical categories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga#Individual_awards
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2...son_statistics

Not sure how this tangent of foreign players disproves at all Steely's original statement that England underperformed.
He's pretty clearly referring to the match vs. US, and he's pretty clearly correct.

If you want to play the over-rated card, you have to show that they are over-rated to the point where the US team is actually better. (or equal)

But you can't prove that, because it's bullshit.

Eh? I responded to the claim that England has a long history of under-performing. It would be stupid to make conclusions from one match.

England does have a long history of underperforming against Sweden :downcast:

Anyway, back to the actual world cup you halfwits.

Goalless draw between Ivory Coast and Portugal, not what I was expecting.

Italy's bunch of old-timers in a draw 1-1 with Paraguay.

Soooo many draws. :|

It's not one match, just the latest in line.

Which is the whole point.

They have a habit of fucking the duck against teams they are better than...if you want to put it down to being over-rated, you show that through the matches..the player make-up of the Premier League has nothing to do with the performance of National teams in International matches.

I suppose the performances of Italy, Serbia, France, and Cameroon so far mean they are over-rated as well.
Or that the U.S. defeating England 1-0 in the 1950 cup was because US was actually a better team.

That's nonsense dude, it's under-performing on one side, usually combined with the other team playing above their level.
The FIFA rankings aren't perfect, but they are a good rough estimate, and when you lose or tie to a team that's well under you, you are under-performing...and England's unfortunate habit of doing that has squat to do with some anomaly in the ranking system.

Freakin sweet injury time goal by the Kiwis. Stellar cross! Congrats on their first world cup point!

Glad to see stricter officiating and fewer flops throughout. :up: I've only been bitching about this for about 30 years. :D

PS Japan and Cameroon looked awful (esp. Cameroon). Roger Milla must be puking. No corner flag dances this year!

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Originally Posted by Crowheart

It's not one match, just the latest in line.

Which is the whole point.

They have a habit of fucking the duck against teams they are better than...if you want to put it down to being over-rated, you show that through the matches..the player make-up of the Premier League has nothing to do with the performance of National teams in International matches.

I suppose the performances of Italy, Serbia, France, and Cameroon so far mean they are over-rated as well.
Or that the U.S. defeating England 1-0 in the 1950 cup was because US was actually a better team.

That's nonsense dude, it's under-performing on one side, usually combined with the other team playing above their level.
The FIFA rankings aren't perfect, but they are a good rough estimate, and when you lose or tie to a team that's well under you, you are under-performing...and England's unfortunate habit of doing that has squat to do with some anomaly in the ranking system.

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You managed to contradict yourself within a single post. :noob: I said we can't conclude anything from a single match, and here you are claiming that I suggest the US was better in 1950 just because of how it performed in one match...

This thread is going to end up on Loki's gold star trolling board that he hangs over his bed, we all know it. :p

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Originally Posted by Loki

You managed to contradict yourself within a single post. :noob: I said we can't conclude anything from a single match, and here you are claiming that I suggest the US was better in 1950 just because of how it performed in one match...

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Stop being absurd dude :)

My presenting a single example of a trend is not the same as suggesting that trend is solely tied to that game and you know that.
Please...you're really reaching there.
Jesus, read the first line of my post and notice how that's the opposite of what you're saying I'm saying.

Or do we need a list of every similar disappointment in English Football history before you actually show examples of how their under performance in international matches is actually due to them being over-rated?

Brazil - North Korea. After one half, I'm rooting for North Korea. How did that happen? :D

Great expectations from Brazil and samba soccer from many people will not be met. Brasil has turned to European school a couple of years ago. Shame, but inevitable.

English Football ... please, don't put 'Soccer' and 'English' in the same sentance, it's absurd but we will forgive you this one time.

NK are giving Brazil a good run for there money, very impressed if I'm honest. I just saw a sign being held up saying "Stop politics for 90mins" -

A FUCKING MEN!

Samba Soccer has alliteration. Or do you need the whole first silly ball for that?

Anyway, it sounds better than Samba Football and therefore is allowed by the powers invested in me.

Ah that combo is allowed because it doesn't have 'English' in it, thus I also allow it.

Did you see the NK player crying at the beginning ... passion baby! :up:

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Originally Posted by Loki

http://soccerlens.com/uefa-football-...ar-2008/20925/
http://soccerlens.com/uefa-football-...ar-2009/39655/

How many Englishmen there?

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Yeah, you got me. Barca had a good season then a great season. That does indeed prove that english people are shit at football. Shame that 2009 team got beat in the semi-finals of the champs league by Inter. Doesnt that mean that now in 2010, Spanish people are bad at football.

Its funny though, because Spain are famously huge underachievers in international tournaments. Pretty much right up until the last European championship you would be guaranteed to find any decription of them including the words "perennial underachievers". And around that time, English teams with significant numbers of English players won the Champions leagues back to back, including a couple of all-English finals. I suppose 8 years ago you would have been advancing the same arguments for Spain as you are now for England?

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As for your picking and choosing which part of La Liga to emphasize, out of the league's 4 main awards were given to Spaniards (with the other two to Messi), and except for goals scored, they dominate all the statistical categories.

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This is funny, you telling me that im picking and choosing data. When you have just invented a new set of goalposts for me to jump through (now i have to prove that spanish players dont play well in the spanish league rather than who are the best players in the league?)

You said that the best players in the spanish leagues are spanish, the best players in the italian leagues are italian, and so on. Looking at the examples i gave above, its pretty clear that they arent.

Furthermore, English teams outside of "the big 4" have far higher percentages of English nationals as players. See Aston Villa. The "big 4" historically have had a lot more money to spend and foreign players always have a certain allure. Most of them dont deliver on their promise. A good number of the teams in the EPL far outclass similar teams in other leagues. Doesnt that show that the English teams with the higher percentage of English players are actually better?

Anyway, enough of this retardedness. No more trolling.

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Originally Posted by Crowheart

Stop being absurd dude :)

My presenting a single example of a trend is not the same as suggesting that trend is solely tied to that game and you know that.
Please...you're really reaching there.
Jesus, read the first line of my post and notice how that's the opposite of what you're saying I'm saying.

Or do we need a list of every similar disappointment in English soccer history before you actually show examples of how their under performance in international matches is actually due to them being over-rated?

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Kind of like how he ignored 90% of my post, picked up a side example that i threw in in brackets and then said it was my "entire argument".

Its pretty annoying, because hes not actually stupid, but you cant have a sensible discussion with the man. Might as well just forget it.

^ Yes, precisely.

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Originally Posted by Lor

English Football ... please, don't put 'Soccer' and 'English' in the same sentance, it's absurd but we will forgive you this one time.

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Apologies. :)

To be completely accurate you'd have to spell it "Futbol." :p

Can't believe NoKo scored on Brazil!

Yeah that was fantastic. One of the highlights so far. The other being, as you said, NZ bagging an equaliser in the last minute.


Interesting to see just how many long shots are going waaaay over. The ball or the altitude?

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

Interesting to see just how many long shots are going waaaay over. The ball or the altitude?

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First round jitters could play a part.
Think once they calm down, the play will improve.

Props to Korea, they put up a good fight today..:up:

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Originally Posted by Lor

Did you see the NK player crying at the beginning ... passion baby! :up:

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Yep, the only player not born, nor living in North Korea :)

Classic case

That Bra-Nko match was the first I've been able to see live this tournament. Dull first half, but second much better. My judgement may be clouded by fact was at the b&b for first half, Lloyds bar for the second :)

But at both locations the vuvuzelas didn't bother me. After 2 min I tuned them out and didn't hear them until someone mentioned them. I have a much noisier and more annoying piece of equipment at work which I'm used to tuning out to be fair.

Edit: 2-1is a very good result for North Korea. They were never likely to beat Brazil and qualify first. By losing by only 1 goal, if Brazil can beat the other teams in their group by 2 or more then this is almost a point for North Korea for getting to Last 16

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

But at both locations the vuvuzelas didn't bother me.

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A lot of TV stations around the world have spent time and effort implementing filtration and tuning software to tune out the vuvuzelas after receiving complaints from viewers.

I'm not sure if ITV or BBC have done the same, but the Beeb did put an article up online about this.

During the Brazil NKO match, the droning wasn't nearly as annoying or loud as it has been for other matches, so either there were less of them in the stadium, or indeed there was filtration software in place tuning them out.

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Edit: 2-1is a very good result for North Korea. They were never likely to beat Brazil and qualify first. By losing by only 1 goal, if Brazil can beat the other teams in their group by 2 or more then this is almost a point for North Korea for getting to Last 16

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Agreed, good result for NKO. A good goal too.

Im pretty sure the tv channels have changed the sound balance to lessen the sound of the vuvuzelas. Its nowhere near as annoying now.

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Originally Posted by Lor

please, don't put 'Soccer' and 'English' in the same sentance

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Yes, for the last time people, they don't call it "soccer" in Europe. They call it "Royale with Cheese" because they use the Dewey Decimal System.

He's a fake. A fake I tell you. :sour: