Geopolitical impact of Brexit

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Bad for the EU yes, more on unity than in the question if this deal with Canada is all that important. Not sure it will be bad for the Brits as a deal with them probably will have the purpose of changing as little as possible.

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Indeed. It takes peculiar spectacles from Loki to view this as bad news from Brexit, if anything this amplifies the desperate need for us to take control of our own trading destiny.

Contrast the EU struggling to implement a deal with Canada, and as is said in the article "If the cannot do a deal with Canada, I think it is legitimate to say: Who the heck can it do a deal with?" ... with Europe's soon to be richest country starting to negotiate a free trade deal with the world's soon to be most populace country: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36740101

Any amount of money says the UK implements a deal with India before the EU does.

As for the Canada deal, please remember that you are the tits that threw a wrench into that one after it was ready. Had it not been for your clowning around giving strength to euriphobes in other countries and taking up all the attention it's entirely possible the deal would be going much smoother. As it is, the final leg of the journey will be bumpier but the deal can still be salvaged. Canada wants to, as does anyone in the EU with half a brain.

Good luck in your talks with India. I hope you arrive at an understanding on matters pertaining to the protection of intellectual property such as medical patents :noob:

I don't know about Sweden, but in Germany it's the left (SPD, Greens & Linke) that is skeptical or even against these free trade deals.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

I don't know about Sweden, but in Germany it's the left (SPD, Greens & Linke) that is skeptical or even against these free trade deals.

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Because there are so many aspects of these agreements that can be criticised from so many different angles, they have the unintentended effect of bringing about more unity in Europe through shared hatred :o Leftist parties and environment-focused parties have voiced criticism of CETA, esp. wrt the extreme secrecy surrounding the agreement and of course wrt the arbitration court. This criticism hasn't been particularly noticeable in Sweden. But obv they would like the opportunity to debate the matter in our own parliament even though they have no hope of stopping it. Right-wing nationalist Europhobes may not be opposed to free trade per se, but they're certainly opposed to the EU "forcing" agreements on us.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

As for the Canada deal, please remember that you are the tits that threw a wrench into that one after it was ready. Had it not been for your clowning around giving strength to euriphobes in other countries and taking up all the attention it's entirely possible the deal would be going much smoother. As it is, the final leg of the journey will be bumpier but the deal can still be salvaged. Canada wants to, as does anyone in the EU with half a brain.

Good luck in your talks with India. I hope you arrive at an understanding on matters pertaining to the protection of intellectual property such as medical patents :noob:

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What "clowning around"? Seriously?

Are you seriously saying that us deciding the EU is unwieldy and refusing to ratify and implement in a speedy fashion trade deals due to demands to satisfy the lowest common denominator, so we'd rather sign our own unilaterally, responsible for the EU being unwieldy and refusing to ratify in a speedy fashion trade deals due to demands to satisfy the lowest common denominator?

Shame not everyone in the EU has by your definition "half a brain".

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Because there are so many aspects of these agreements that can be criticised from so many different angles, they have the unintentended effect of bringing about more unity in Europe through shared hatred :o Leftist parties and environment-focused parties have voiced criticism of CETA, esp. wrt the extreme secrecy surrounding the agreement and of course wrt the arbitration court. This criticism hasn't been particularly noticeable in Sweden. But obv they would like the opportunity to debate the matter in our own parliament even though they have no hope of stopping it. Right-wing nationalist Europhobes may not be opposed to free trade per se, but they're certainly opposed to the EU "forcing" agreements on us.

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In case you didn't read anything I or Johnson etc wrote what we were opposed to was being held up by the lowest common denominator of the European left. :rolleyes:

Show me where I or Johnson or anyone from Vote Leave was complaining about the EU forcing agreements on us? The opposite was our complaint.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Right-wing nationalist Europhobes may not be opposed to free trade per se, but they're certainly opposed to the EU "forcing" agreements on us.

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Apart from the FN in France (which is against free trade), I have never heard anything like that. That said, I don't hear a lot of Sweden, it's most of the time under the radar.

UKIP have campaigned against TTIP. UKIP though are fringe nutters.

I have my skeptics about TTIP as well, but so far it's still a draft, so too early to jump conclusions.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Are you seriously saying that us deciding the EU is unwieldy and refusing to ratify and implement in a speedy fashion trade deals due to demands to satisfy the lowest common denominator, so we'd rather sign our own unilaterally, responsible for the EU being unwieldy and refusing to ratify in a speedy fashion trade deals due to demands to satisfy the lowest common denominator?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Show me where I or Johnson or anyone from Vote Leave was complaining about the EU forcing agreements on us? The opposite was our complaint.

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What I'm saying is that, if it hadn't been for the referendum and the movement leading up to it as well as Brexit itself, the Commission would probably not have altered course in this fashion and the agreement would have been signed and ratified relatively swiftly after the negotiations were concluded. There have been requests to make this a mixed agreement since at least a couple of years ago but afaict that was unlikely until recently. I may be wrong about that and of course europhobic clowns have been causing trouble for a fairly while now :o

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

Apart from the FN in France (which is against free trade), I have never heard anything like that. That said, I don't hear a lot of Sweden, it's most of the time under the radar.

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You misunderstand. It's not just a question of free trade, it's also a question about what powers the EU should have as well as about one's take on democratic control. This is a compromise between letting the decision be taken by unaccountable bureaucrats who can outvote you with ease, on the one hand, and a national referendum on the other. It's possible, in principle, to support free trade while opposing the EU's power to make binding agreements on your behalf that will place you under many strict obligations as well as open you up to being sued by corporations, esp. if you oppose the EU itself. I haven't seen any official position from the Sweden Democraps on CETA but they've previously expressed opposition to the TTIP.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

Apart from the FN in France (which is against free trade), I have never heard anything like that. That said, I don't hear a lot of Sweden, it's most of the time under the radar.

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I am not certain of the PVV but I think it's a safe bet to say most of their voters aren't exactly the big winners from globalization.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

What I'm saying is that, if it hadn't been for the referendum and the movement leading up to it as well as Brexit itself, the Commission would probably not have altered course in this fashion and the agreement would have been signed and ratified relatively swiftly after the negotiations were concluded. There have been requests to make this a mixed agreement since at least a couple of years ago but afaict that was unlikely until recently. I may be wrong about that and of course europhobic clowns have been causing trouble for a fairly while now :o

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Firstly, I think you shouldn't blame everything on the Brexit. Secondly, I think you underestimate the opposition of the German Left to such deals.

I was speaking of the Swedish left, I have no idea how influential the German left is or isn't :o

The three left parties could throw out Merkel if they worked together.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

The three left parties could throw out Merkel if they worked together.

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Working together with Wagenknecht? What kind of an optimist are you exactly?

Yes the SPD always ruled out working with the SED still they do it already in several states.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

I was speaking of the Swedish left, I have no idea how influential the German left is or isn't :o

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You think the Swedish left is solely motivated by our right's success? Odd theory, do you have evidence for that?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

You think the Swedish left is solely motivated by our right's success?

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What? :bulb:

Why would the Swedish left be motivated by Brexit?

Oh okay I see now where the confusion lies. When EJ mentioned that opposition to these deals came from the left and later specifically mentioned the German left I mentioned the scant few impressions I have of the Swedish left wrt EU and trade agreements. The Swedish Left party is a small party and in the EU they have like one seat.

The harmful influence I was talking about, of the UK's EU-undermining shenanigans culminating in Brexit, was the increase in political pressure on the Commission, brought on by increasingly clamorous Eurosceptic parties in parliaments all over Europe who've now realized they can scare their opponents into shooting themselves into hobbling themselves for fear of going the same way as the UK.Well, that's one way of looking at it anyway.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

Yes the SPD always ruled out working with the SED still they do it already in several states.

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I was talking about her personally.

Austrian far right leader thinks Britain is being too extreme on EU. :o

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36747304

Yeah because not just doing nothing while there is a rise in far right fascism across Europe, but giving the fascists power to write our laws without our consent is so much more rational.

Why bother standing up to fascism when we could just give a blank paper over and say "let us know what laws you want us to have".

Last I checked, the EU actually punished countries for opting for far right rulers or for pushing back against democracy. I can't say the same about the UK.

Funny I see the rise of the far right happening in election after election across the EU, with many nationalist and far right parties being in office in the EU.

I can't say the same about the UK.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

I was talking about her personally.

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She is actually among the 'moderate' within the party.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Funny I see the rise of the far right happening in election after election across the EU, with many nationalist and far right parties being in office in the EU.

I can't say the same about the UK.

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Well, congrats for being better than Hungary. I'm glad that's what you aspire to.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ross-continent

Meanwhile, just about the entire continent realized that the Rands of Britain refuse to acknowledge: the immediate effect of a Brexit has been a disaster.

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Originally Posted by Loki

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ross-continent

Meanwhile, just about the entire continent realized that the Rands of Britain refuse to acknowledge: the immediate effect of a Brexit has been a disaster.

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So I wonder why you posted that Juncker put the Canadian trade deal to the national legislatures because of how Brexit has increased the relative strength of the Euroskeptics. They can't both be true, not the way you've presented them It's almost like you're a two-faced Janus. With one of those faces being a horse's ass.

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

So I wonder why you posted that Juncker put the Canadian trade deal to the national legislatures because of how Brexit has increased the relative strength of the Euroskeptics. They can't both be true, not the way you've presented them It's almost like you're a two-faced Janus. With one of those faces being a horse's ass.

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It's like the European public and EU officials aren't the same thing. Brexit increased popular support for the EU. Brexit also made EU officials weary of antagonizing national parliaments.