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It's your government demanding of people proof of every move they made over decades in the process of applying for residency. It's really time you start to wake up and smell the coffee Randy; the only way the UK is exceptional, is in its dishonest way of dealing with reality.
A requirement that those who come in from traditional non-EU means are required to follow and informed on arrival that they're required to follow. Same as the requirement to acquire private medical insurance as opposed to relying upon the NHS - those that come in from traditional non-EU means and wish to acquire permanent residency are informed from the beginning that it is a legal requirement. The problem is that people who came in via free movement are then seeking non-free movement permanent residency and being informed of a load of pre-existing conditions that they didn't know about because they came in via free movement. No shit Sherlock, you didn't know as this system wasn't designed for you.
The solution is to agree a deal to provide certainty for those who travelled via free movement rather than seeking to make those who moved via free movement fit into pre-existing non-free movement boxes.
You seem to forget that the day the UK leaves the EU, you are third country citizens. Also, the health insurance is a standing requirement in the UK regulations.
Not sure what you mean about them health insurance. It is a requirement for third party citizens but not EU ones AFAIK.
As for forgetting the day we leave etc no I'm not. That's the whole bleeding point and why we need to sort this out before then. If that wasn't the case there'd be nothing to sort out.
Oh well, with your PM living in Lala land it doesn't look there will be any deal at all. Have fun picking up the pieces. It will be interesting to see who is interested in ever working with you again.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
My PM lives in the real world where we have to deal with real issues and not the fantasy eutopia you seem to think exists.
Reports like this saying that your Druncker is unhappy with how our PM isn't willing to fold to your fantasies is reassuring
Twitter Link
An old Swedish expression about reading things the way Satan reads the Bible comes to mind.
From the use of the term 'third country nationals' by the British you can see they still don't get that Brexit is Brexit. For the UK there are none such after Brexit. The terminology only means something in the EU context.
No, in the context of UK and EU negotiations there are clearly third party nations which is everyone else. That's what third party literally means. Just as if we were negotiating with the USA then the EU would be a third party.
While it's clearly your side that doesn't get that Brexit is Brexit and expects to be treated differently from other third party nations.
No, we don't have third parties in our dealings with you. You are non-EU, and only in our relations with EU partners we have third party nationals.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Your PM clearly also doesn't understand what Brexit means; she lives under the misconception that this is just one of your games of opting out and in. It is not; it means you are out, and you will have to negotiate about the new relationship.
Also interesting to see your government thinks we're going to make this a secret set of negotiations; we on the other hand will work entirely in the open.
You would be justified in thinking so because that would be the intuitively sensible as well as legal scenario, but, as is so often the case, they like to do things in a particularly crazy way in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
The UK maintains that many EU citizens residing in the UK must have comprehensive sickness insurance for the duration of their stay if they wish to obtain permanent residency--even though they're allowed to use the NHS. They've been under investigation for years now for this violation of the freedom of movement directives and the case is ongoing.
More info here:
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release....htm?locale=en
We're heading for a traincrash anyway. I think the EU should start preparing for the fall out of a clean break rather than this nonsense about making Brexit a succes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
I suggest you read up on the report about the May-Juncker meeting in FAS yesterday; May is totally out of her depth and being led around the nose by hardcore Breximaniacs.
Not speaking German, I have been forced to settle for the Twitter summary referred to here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
https://www.forbes.com/sites/frances.../#60cb0fa84f04
In brief:
What else is new? It's a national trait.Quote:
Obviously this leak is a highly tactical move by Commission. But contents deeply worrying for UK nonetheless. The report points to major communications/briefing problems. Important messages from Berlin & Brussels seem not to be getting through. Presumably as a result, May seems to be labouring under some really rather fundamental misconceptions about Brexit & the EU27.
Yes, the message here is; there is no basis for talks if the positions are this wide apart.
For God's sake, they actually said the words during that meeting; no brexit agreement and no after brexit agreement are going to happen with the UK's approach.
Your reading comprehension is pretty poor here. Try rereading the sentence the phrase came from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
If they wish to acquire permanent Residency yes but there is no requirement to obtain permanent Residency so.many weren't aware of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Fine. No deal is better than a ridiculously bad deal. Don't think we have any intention of returning to drink your Kool Aid. Love the part that Druncker suggested that Brexit would be terrible because Britain won't be part of the EU anymore. That's the entire point!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Congratulations, you've reached the skill-level of a bona fide Trumpist and taken this discussion one step closer to a comment thread on Fox's Facebook page. For more ideas on creative and entertaining names for political opponents ("Dumbocrats", "DemocRATs", "Obummer", "Killary", "Hitlery" etc) see the rest of the Trumpist internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Back on topic:
Please provide a quote for this, I have a feeling you're misreading it.Quote:
suggested that Brexit would be terrible because Britain won't be part of the EU anymore. That's the entire point!
According to EU law they are entitled to permanent residency regardless, hence the investigation which also touches on other infringements. The right itself, to permanent residency, is acquired automatically. Upon attaining that right, they are entitled to a document confirming their right. EU citizens may not be required to apply for permanent residency documents, but EU member states are required to not impose illegal restrictions on EU-citizens' ability to acquire permanent residency, provided said citizens have resided legally in the country for a sufficient length of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
You still don't get the picture I see; you will not just be no member of the EU, you will be in essence cut off from your present biggest market for bloody everything and you will not get accesss to it again on conditions even remotely like what you have now. Your banks will not have trouble doing business in Europe; they will be cut out altogether. Your cars won't be sold in Europe because you won't be able to build any cars. Your airlines won't be flying to or over Europe, there will be no trains through the Tunnel and there will be Your no deal is better than a bad deal mantra is rubbish because any deal means that you keep some level of access.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
A little nuance; we don't need the acquire permanent residency on the basis of UK law because we are entitled to live and work in the UK on the basis of Union law. What the UK is trying to do now is to say that only British law counts, as if that doesn't mean that the EU would be willing to agree with a situation where EU citizens in the UK get a significantly worse deal than they have now, where UK citizens by and large get the same rights on the basis of EU directives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
The infringement procedures are because British law gives EU citizens a worse deal; Union law specifically prohibits that.
I must say that I totally like the way in which the EU isn't keeping anything in chambers. It shows the UK citizens for the first time what games their government plays over Europe.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
And I wonder of course when Littlefuzzy is going to open the shutters and realize that I'm not some sort of rare anti-British extremist, but more or less representative for main stream European thinking on Brexit.
What that would indicate is that Europe as a whole is extremist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
Honestly though, who cares? It's clear that his take on these particular issues resemble nothing so much as the various caricatures he's created of everyone else's positions on pretty much everything else. See for example the latest post where he asserts an absurd kind of view that he would have berated or even mocked Loki for in another context. If upholding the principles and directives of the EU amounts to extremism then so be it. By rights the same charge can be leveled, on similar grounds, against those who strive to uphold the principles and laws of the US as they see it. It is, if course, of course, an extremist view. Extremely ironic, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazir
You are right, I should not be surprised a partizan is acting strictly partizan.
I think I understand by the way how May thinks the UK owes the EU nothing. With her smartish idea of opting back in she probably thought she could hide the payments as entry fees for sectors of industry retaining common market access. Too bad for her the EU leaders take Brexit to actually mean Brexit and not a way too smart scheme to renegotiate the Cameron renegotiations.
Hazir asserted that his decades-long hostility to the UK's presence in the EU is the mainstream thinking in Europe. Apparently my thinking this would make Europe in general extremist is absurd. So you've been unrelentingly hostile to the British presence and attempts to influence European polity they were a part of, and considered them a little bug which desperately needed to be stomped for the last sixteen+ years, Aimless? Odd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Hazir claimed that he's "more or less representative for main stream European thinking on Brexit", not that his personal relationship with RB is shared by the EU as a whole. Even if the comment had been in reference to the entirety of his long beef with the UK represented by RB, the notion that a country that doesn't want to be a part of the union should in fact leave the union is no more extreme when it's held by Hazir then when it's held by British Euroskeptics such as RB.
The charge of extremism typically refers to ideology, not simply to quirks of personality, interpersonal problems, an infected and protracted fight between two individuals, gloating and schadenfreude or informal shit-talking. The political and legal perspectives he's highlighted in the context of the Brexit referendum have in general not been extremist. If you insist that they are, then you should by rights also believe that British Euroskeptics are at least twice as extremist. Regardless, this personal tangent will hardly offer any meaningful insights into the official brexit process so perhaps we can leave it at that no matter how exciting it may be to make things personal.
I think Hazir's attitudes are very strongly informed by the many years of animosity he has been communicating with us. Positions and attitudes aren't that easily divorced. And he did not assert that they led him to a point of commonality with others in Europe today but claimed that he was representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
Except Hazir has never just wanted them gone. He was repeatedly expressing his desires for a punitive separation long before the British electorate voted to leave. His desire that Britain suffer is another line along my opinion that his position is extremist. And I will say that I've seen a strengthening in the numbers feeling such a sentiment since the Brexit vote. It feels akin to jingoism and I do regard that as increasing extremism.Quote:
Even if the comment had been in reference to the entirety of his long beef with the UK represented by RB, the notion that a country that doesn't want to be a part of the union should in fact leave the union is no more extreme when it's held by Hazir then when it's held by British Euroskeptics such as RB.
Bullshit, my starting point in this whole debate over a decade ago was that so-called euro skeptics in the UK were talking out of their backsides when they claimed the EU was something they'd be better of without. It was only when I started to realize that the idea had so much traction in the UK that it would long term not only poison them but the rest of us too that I made a U turn it on their membership.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
Your idiotic perception that I am anti British per se is nothing but an expression of your own inability to understand that people are perfectly capable of not becoming what they believe to be true.
The article in the FAS makes something horribly clear: the mythology of the extreme anti-EU press has a follower in the person of the Prime Minister of the UK. The woman somehow is dumb enough to believe that we're just a free trade area and that all kinds of damage to the other things we are are going to be acceptable for the sake of not disturbing trade.