US protests against police violence

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Originally Posted by gogobongopop

To ask a potentially silly question, which may have already been answered - is there any evidence to show that the killing of George Floyd was racially motivated?

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Originally Posted by Aimless

There are rumors going around that it may have been personal. No compelling evidence, nor does it really matter.

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Beyond the officer's record (which seems to have not been great), the idea that he knew Floyd from off-hours security jobs probably bears some digging.

Meanwhile, after a few nights of looting and having a friend assaulted by teenage gangs we are least seem to have settled into a pattern of hundreds/thousands of people walking together, ignoring social distancing (anti-science!) and holding-out for change. I don't know if "defund the police" is the change we need versus "ban public employee unions FFS" but it's progress.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

don't know if "defund the police" is the change we need

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What do you think this means?

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Originally Posted by gogobongopop

That's an interesting response. Why do you think I'm "coming to their defense"?

What that cop did was heinous and there's no excuse.

I'm merely asking whether there's evidence that it was racially motivated. It's a perfectly valid question to ask given the response.

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Its an interesting question but it also doesn't matter.

The fact is that too many US officers are prepared to use lethal force when it is entirely unwarranted. Now actually what's been highlighted since does actually tend to support the idea that the Police are overly aggressive with anyone who gets in their way, whether it be a young black man, or a 75 year old white man.

It doesn't matter. All their lives matter and stopping attacks against one group should stop attacks against all.

The first sign ive seen that breaks down how lewk operates

Again - let people peacefully protest. Just crush those who are violent. I don't get how this is hard to understand. The ideal scenario is that law abiding peaceful protesters have nothing to fear from the police and those that use violence should be terrified of the police. Of course ideal scenarios aren't going to happen as people are human but that's the ultimate goal. I'm pretty pleased that the DOJ is stepping in to handle some of the cases instead of local prosecution. Destroying the lives of those who are inciting riots and burning buildings will go a long way to making the country a better place to live in.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

What do you think this means?

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Just glancing at social media it means a variety of things to a variety of different people. You have to put your head in the sand to believe that there aren't crazy leftists out there demanding police be abolished.

What a perfect example of you getting offended at something and then proving it correct with your very next post.

You truly are your own worst enemy. And a dumbass.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Beyond the officer's record (which seems to have not been great), the idea that he knew Floyd from off-hours security jobs probably bears some digging.

Meanwhile, after a few nights of looting and having a friend assaulted by teenage gangs we are least seem to have settled into a pattern of hundreds/thousands of people walking together, ignoring social distancing (anti-science!) and holding-out for change. I don't know if "defund the police" is the change we need versus "ban public employee unions FFS" but it's progress.

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Divert half of all police and jail spending to shelters for domestic abuse victims, social services, mental health services, housing assistance, food security and elimination of childhood lead exposure. You will get your money back with interest. American cops are too preoccupied with solving crimes caused by American policing. They exemplify the worst diseases of an unaccountable bureaucracy—with guns.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Just crush those who are violent. I don't get how this is hard to understand.

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It's not hard to understand, the hard part is trying to work out how to do it without getting charged with assaulting a police officer.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Destroying the lives of those who are inciting riots and burning buildings will go a long way to making the country a better place to live in.

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Says the "teacher" troll who wants to live in a police state. :picard:

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Originally Posted by gogobongopop

To ask a potentially silly question, which may have already been answered - is there any evidence to show that the killing of George Floyd was racially motivated?

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The changing demographics of MN are hard to explain, but it was predominantly white until the Lutherans and Catholics started sponsoring refugees from Somalia, Ethiopia, Tanzania, etc. They were placed in urban hubs b/c that's where social services are best, but also in exurbs where jobs in Agriculture and Food Processing were plentiful.

While Minneapolis strived to be a 'progressive', welcoming community (and for the most part integrated refugee cultures quite well), their Police Dept. was a different story. They have a history of racial profiling and abusing their power. It seems the Police didn't evolve and change as their community did. :bulb:

It's strictly anecdotal, but I've heard MN white folks (like my best friend) complain that "Blacks don't assimilate because they don't like cold weather", or "None of those refugees can speak English and are a drag on our schools", or "They're taking away jobs and using up our tax dollars". Sound familiar? :(

Another anecdote about protests against police violence: I'm old enough to remember when schools were racially segregated, and the National Guard had to protect black children against white racist mobs. And when cops assaulted people just for being gay, and got away with it, and the Stonewall resistance movement. Culture wars are always ugly because change is hard. Tough shit, and good riddance to the old guard mentality that was *always* about white Christian hetero male dominance. :D

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Its an interesting question but it also doesn't matter.

The fact is that too many US officers are prepared to use lethal force when it is entirely unwarranted. Now actually what's been highlighted since does actually tend to support the idea that the Police are overly aggressive with anyone who gets in their way, whether it be a young black man, or a 75 year old white man.

It doesn't matter. All their lives matter and stopping attacks against one group should stop attacks against all.

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It may not matter to you, but it matters to the protesters - especially those in the UK. I was listening to the Today programme this morning and a BLM organiser made clear that the protests are about institutional racism. Therefore it seems important to establish whether the spark that ignited the fury was racially motivated.

On a related note, I'm also struggling with the terms "systematic" and "institutional" racism. I've been listening to various commentators over the last week and, when asked, not one has been able to point to any specific examples of what I consider to be a fault of "the system" or our "institutions". So whilst I completely support protests against racism, I'm not as empathetic to the cause as I could be because I don't fully understand the problem, and see people, when given the opportunity to explain, fail to do so.

And thanks GGT - makes sense.

Gogo, It's hard to define racism, let alone "systemic" or "institutional" racism. For the most part it's insidious, baked into our minds after generations of behaviors and norms that we rarely think about or question. Everyone agrees that racism is wrong, but no one likes to admit they have racial biases. The paradox of human behavior that wants to denounce the bad stuff without admitting our own complicity?

Anyway, your question was valid. It's hard to separate police brutality from racial discrimination...but in the end it's mostly about abuse of power. Since we've given police authority without expecting accountability, it's no wonder there are massive protests combining BLM with reforms in criminal justice and healthcare and...well, everything.

I agree, but the terms 'systematic' and 'institutional' don't imply elements of human behaviour. I completely agree that, as humans, we're guilty of conscious and unconscious bias and stereotyping. It's something we're never likely to eradicate; and is something that's deeply personal to each individual.

I'm under the impression that the protests are about creating a fairer society based on less discrimination against black people. But the conversation very often remains in the abstract; and thus I struggle to understand the specifics that demonstrate that our laws and policies (for example) discriminate.

Again, I don't mean to offend. Plead bear in mind that I've been in isolation for months now and I'm largely ignorant of the subject.

The US still has monuments erected for Confederate generals; we still have military bases named for Confederate leaders; we still have a state (Mississippi) whose flag incorporates the Confederacy flag. WHY? Does the south really want to commemorate their history of slavery? Do they really want to honor traitors to the Union? Or is it a not-so-subtle reminder to blacks that the white male power structure still exists, regardless of any legislation about equal justice under the law? ;)

When racism white supremacy is in your face, it's not an abstract idea.

Stopped, choked, forced down onto the ground and arrested for... jaywalking. And then treated like this:

Twitter Link

For jaywalking.

I've been threatened with arrest for jaywalking, and my SO has a ticket for it. Both times were in empty, rural areas late at night. It's like the thing police pull out for fun.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

What do you think this means?

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I think it's a curious case of the left wanting to solve a problem by spending less money on government, which from a Freudian perspective is fascinating.

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I'm glad I watched this...after kids asleep but almost want to show to younger folks as I am beginning to think the youths don't know about Dave Chappelle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tR6mKcBbT4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tR6mKcBbT4

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

I think it's a curious case of the left wanting to solve a problem by spending less money on government, which from a Freudian perspective is fascinating.

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This is almost as dumb as lewks answer.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

I've been threatened with arrest for jaywalking, and my SO has a ticket for it. Both times were in empty, rural areas late at night. It's like the thing police pull out for fun.

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It's how cops respond to incentives.

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I think it's a curious case of the left wanting to solve a problem by spending less money on government, which from a Freudian perspective is fascinating.

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What exactly do you believe "the left" thinks should be done with the money that will be taken from police budgets? Tax breaks for the wealthy? Just give yourself a moment to think first.

Twitter Link

When you sieg the quiet part out loud :heart:

I don't which is more delicious—the irony of the video, or the meta-irony of the reactions from English progressives.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

I think it's a curious case of the left wanting to solve a problem by spending less money on government, which from a Freudian perspective is fascinating.

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It's wild when someone's so invested in their bullshit ideas about what 'the left' believes from their compulsive and uncritical consumption of right wing media that they actually become angry about 'hypocrisy' when some leftist group says or does something that contradicts their false understanding of left wing politics, rather than reflect on whether their picture of what they left believes is correct.

Y'all are not gonna believe this:

Twitter Link

Twitter Link

do these fucking people have a mental age of 12 or something?

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Originally Posted by gogobongopop

I agree, but the terms 'systematic' and 'institutional' don't imply elements of human behaviour. I completely agree that, as humans, we're guilty of conscious and unconscious bias and stereotyping. It's something we're never likely to eradicate; and is something that's deeply personal to each individual.

I'm under the impression that the protests are about creating a fairer society based on less discrimination against black people. But the conversation very often remains in the abstract; and thus I struggle to understand the specifics that demonstrate that our laws and policies (for example) discriminate.

Again, I don't mean to offend. Plead bear in mind that I've been in isolation for months now and I'm largely ignorant of the subject.

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I am sure you don’t want to offend. But your claim of ignorance of the subject is offensive all by itself. Maybe you should consider that minorities are entirely fed up with the constant need for them to educate people who for a change could take their heads out of their asses and educate themselves about the experiences of minorities.

I grew up having to fight my way into getting my mere existence being acknowledged, and I had the advantage of race, class and an ability to pass if I needed a rest from straight people’s unwanted interference in my private life. I can not imagine what it must feel like if the color of your skin is what otherizes you. Your studied stupidity is enraging. It is what makes people like me prefer real hardcore homophobes over the likes of you; for they may be the enemy, but at least they know me for what I am. Which is a whole lot better than the life zapping ‘honest interest’ into the real causes of my anger. Your question is about as inoffensive as ‘Are you sad because your mother died of lung cancer or are you just sad because she died?’

The anger, gogo, is because it took burning cities and toppled statues, for people like you to take notice.

More "bad apples".

https://www.newsweek.com/all-members...eeling-1510637

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Originally Posted by Hazir

I am sure you don’t want to offend. But your claim of ignorance of the subject is offensive all by itself. Maybe you should consider that minorities are entirely fed up with the constant need for them to educate people who for a change could take their heads out of their asses and educate themselves about the experiences of minorities.

I grew up having to fight my way into getting my mere existence being acknowledged, and I had the advantage of race, class and an ability to pass if I needed a rest from straight people’s unwanted interference in my private life. I can not imagine what it must feel like if the color of your skin is what otherizes you. Your studied stupidity is enraging. It is what makes people like me prefer real hardcore homophobes over the likes of you; for they may be the enemy, but at least they know me for what I am. Which is a whole lot better than the life zapping ‘honest interest’ into the real causes of my anger. Your question is about as inoffensive as ‘Are you sad because your mother died of lung cancer or are you just sad because she died?’

The anger, gogo, is because it took burning cities and toppled statues, for people like you to take notice.

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I don't know how to respond to this, other than to say your assumptions about me couldn't be further from the truth.

You know nothing about me or my upbringing. I grew up in Leicester. I'm sure one as educated as you will know that it is fantastically multicultural city; where the proportion of "BAME" people outweigh the proportion of British White people. At and during primary school, secondary school, college and university - I was always an ethic minority. Generally speaking everyone got on well together, but I witnessed racism, and was subject to racism myself regularly and it was particularly bad during secondary school. I was the only white person in my tutor group and was bullied for 5 years consistently. Beyond the consistent name calling (normally "whitey" "white boy" or "little white bitch") and general day to day bullying, my nose was broken, a tooth was knocked out, a finger was broken, possessions and money were regularly stolen from me, I was egged several times and teased whenever I applied myself at my work. The bullies also had a passion for poking me firmly in the adam's apple and taking great amusement in watching me struggle for breath. It was a deeply upsetting and difficult time and we were in no doubt that the colour of my skin was the primary influence on the attacks on me. Things got better during college and university, as one might expect as we grow up, but the issue didn't go away completely.

Thankfully the racism I was subjected to, and the racism I witnessed against Indian, Pakistani and black people was consistently unleashed by a small minority of people. By and large for most people colour was never an issue and I still think to this day Leicester is a great example of multiculturalism working brilliantly. Something I'm a big advocate of.

You've assumed that I had an advantage of race and class. I didn't. Due to the bullying I suffered for years you will never persuade me that my skin colour has been an advantage for me. I grew up in a council estate. I had one working parent and we were poor. Compared to many of the successful and wealthy Indian and Pakistani families in the the area that I mixed with, I was the lower class and often looked down upon.

I am not trying to belittle the struggle that some BAME people might have by telling you this. Neither am I downplaying your own circumstances. I'm doing so to explain why your assumptions about me are so wrong.

The question I asked is perfectly valid and legitimate and it's absolutely nothing like the analogy you tried to use. And my second point was about getting to the specifics about systematic and institutional racism. I'm willing to admit that I don't fully understand what these terms mean or what needs to change; but because of my history it's something of interest to me. This is something that we should be able to discuss as adults without making wild assumptions about people and attacking them.

It may come as surprise to you but not everyone on this forum has the answer to everything. Not everyone is fully educated on the subject. Not everyone has spent years researching the facts and evidence. Some people have doubts about things and not everyone is cocksure about what they believe. If there's no room for people like that on this forum then I'm happy to go and leave you superior intellects to it.

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Originally Posted by GGT

The US still has monuments erected for Confederate generals; we still have military bases named for Confederate leaders; we still have a state (Mississippi) whose flag incorporates the Confederacy flag. WHY? Does the south really want to commemorate their history of slavery? Do they really want to honor traitors to the Union? Or is it a not-so-subtle reminder to blacks that the white male power structure still exists, regardless of any legislation about equal justice under the law? ;)

When racism white supremacy is in your face, it's not an abstract idea.

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I'm no expert on American history, but yeah, I agree. I was in favour of the statue of a British slaver being removed last weekend. I doesn't seem like something we should be immortalising and commemorating.

This is a bona fide argument against Free Speech:

https://imgur.com/0HJypvE

Even worse Photoshop job:

https://static.seattletimes.com/wp-c...4-1560x878.jpg