I want an Off button.

I know, another death thread.

My grandmother is like 86 or something. Since my mother, her daughter passed 5 years ago, she has never been the same. She has dwelled on the "it should have been me" ever since. She still lives in her own house, and thats about to change. For a while, she has had some pretty significant memory loss, in my mind. My sister has resentfully been helping her out a little, taking care of her banking and such. My Yia yia (yah-yah, greek for grandmother) has had some long term health problems like emphizema and diabetes. She doesn't take her meds, do her inhaler, watch her food, or check her sugar. She has been in the hospital a couple times because of high sugar, and was in again this last week. She still drives too! I was against that, and last year when she tried to get her license renewed, she failed, but the DMV guy told my godmother (her sister) to take her to such and such DMV, where she will probably pass, and SHE DID! I was angry about this, and told my godmother she should not be driving. She could cause/have an accident. My godmothers response was "Well, we'll wait till she does". OMG!

I had kinda washed my hands of all this, because nobody would listen to me that she needed to go to assisted living.

The other thing that has gone on, and I picked up on it quite a while ago, is the strong impression I got from her, is that she is done, and is waiting to die. She is depressed. Nobody believed me, until now. *sigh* A year or so ago, when my sister finally got all her financials put in her name and control, my Yia Yia said "Ok, can I go now?" :( Now, when my sister asked why she isn't taking her meds, she said she doesn't want to. In my mind, she is playing the waiting game.

A little funny note...I told my sister a long time ago, that we need to disconnect her stove. My sister called me back and said that we don't need to worry, it's electric, not gas. :eek: :facepalm:

So i guess after she was released from the hospital, she had to go to therapy. I asked what kind of therapy? Oh, they were teaching her how to give herself an insulin shot. :confused: Really?!

They kept her for a bit in a nursing home or something, I am not clear. When my sister went to visit her, she was sitting on the edge of the bed, waiting to go home. :( Now comes the hard part of telling her she won't be going home, or at least for very long.

Also, another great aunt, her other sister has been in assisted living and now a nursing home, has dementia, and other problems. She doesn't recognize anyone. She wants to go home. She hates it there.

So here's my thing. Here are 2 people who have lived life, and are severly deteriorated/ing. Why can't we have a way out when we are ready? My Yia Yia will go into a nursing home where they will make sure she takes her meds, and watch here diet and sugar, extending her life. Why? Is this not extending her misery and depression? Why can't there be a system where she decides it's time, gather the family, and be with her and let her pass?

I have thought a lot about this for another reason. Stephen and I. Who is going to take care of us when we are like her? Who is going to make these decisions for us? Neither of us have extended family beyond our sisters. I want an off button. I want the ability to decide that I have lived my life to the fullest, and decide when I am done.


Do you want an off button?

No.

Yes.

I actually think that is a great idea. It would be so less messy than the way some choose to take their lives, leaving physical and emotional distress on pure strangers in their attempts to end life.

Will it ever come to be? Who knows. There is always the family members who will want you to hang on forever, because they can't bring themselves to let you go. I know, it isn't their decision, but it still can factor in.

I know I've gotten in trouble for posting on this topic before. But, I do think there should be a nice, clean way for one to end their own lives without burdening others. (i.e. throwing yourself in front of a train will cause mental and financial pain to others, not a nice thing to do on your way out of this world)

If lethal injections are allowed to put down the criminals in this country, couldn't we also use something similar to let people choose to leave this Earth? We euthanize dogs and cats when they are too sick to be healed.

I guess there would be much moral/ethical discussions to be had before such a thing could come to pass.

Depression sucks, but is that really a good reason for an off button? :bulb:


Whats wrong with knowing how to give yourself an insulin shot? Brandy's grandmother had to know, and she was old as dirt, even Brent learned how, just in case, and he was only 2.

My guess is if she messes up it could spell even more health problems. Or that she isn't going to give herself the shots anyway since she is depressed.


Going off meds can be a painful way to go. An off button could be a much quicker way. Just go to sleep and not wake up.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Depression sucks, but is that really a good reason for an off button? :bulb:

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What if your reason for wanting to die isn't due to depression, but some other reason, but for whatever reason can't die, and this results in being depressed?

Conceptually, yeah it makes total sense. But at an individual level, are you ready to give up on her, Bitter? At least on the emotional level —*maybe taking her out and breaking her routines a bit would either make her happier enough to rally a bit, or make her content enough to feel like she's really ready (instead of saying it).

I realize you've probably thought about this before, but just speaking from personal experience sometimes taking my older relatives out for some time (especially something visually stimulating) can be great.

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Originally Posted by Bitter Jeweler

Do you want an off button?

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Absolutely 'yes'. I see no point in burdening others when I can no longer feed, bathe and clothe myself; feel physical touch, pain or emotion.

Everyone has an off button. Few are confident enough to use it.

Most def want an off button!

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Depression sucks, but is that really a good reason for an off button? :bulb:

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For someone in their 20s, maybe not. Depression and the associated anxiety, social withdrawal and general loss of the will to live can, in some cases, be 'cured' and people do get a second chance.

For someone in their 80s? They're not lonely because they've isolated themselves from society, they're lonely because everyone in their former peer group is dead, their relatives have grown old and sedentary, or grown up and are living their own lives. Their physiology is deteriorating at an increasing pace. Even if they wanted to try and have romantic encounters, their minds and bodies cannot. There's probably physical pain from old age, and there's also the loss of mobility, irregular bowel function, and a host of other symptoms.

And there is the knowledge that soon, soon it's their turn.

Their depression can be 'cured' by doping them up with so many happy pills and morphine, but let's not pretend even for a second that they have "something to live for if they just really tried!" :| You try living six months so that you're absolutely alone, wearing a lead apron, only to get visited two times by random relatives within that time. You will not be told in advance when they'll come. Give that a go, and we'll look at your mental well-being afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Conceptually, yeah it makes total sense. But at an individual level, are you ready to give up on her, Bitter? At least on the emotional level —*maybe taking her out and breaking her routines a bit would either make her happier enough to rally a bit, or make her content enough to feel like she's really ready (instead of saying it).

I realize you've probably thought about this before, but just speaking from personal experience sometimes taking my older relatives out for some time (especially something visually stimulating) can be great.

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The fact that this is a serious post is just the saddest thing

Oh cool, here we have it again; we can't be bothered about old people. Their lives are worthless so really they should be helped to put an end to something as miserable as that. It would never do to try to make their lives nicer if you can also off them.

How exactly is that different from "we can't be bothered about old people, let's just drug them into a stupor"?

It isn't, but there is an alternative. Like treating them like people rather than a nuisance. You'd be surprise how people react to not being put away in a storage while waiting for they to die.

It sure is fun toppling straw-men, isn't it? Esp when they're so old and frail! Now let's grab its purse and steal all their money.

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Originally Posted by Nessus

It sure is fun toppling straw-men, isn't it? Esp when they're so old and frail! Now let's grab its purse and steal all their money.

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No, I am serious about this. I think a lot of the suffering is caused by the rampant age-ism in western society. How many people are living in retirement homes, nursing homes getting all they may need physically but who never see a person besides the meals on wheels person or the care-giver who has 12 minutes 30 seconds to wash them before they have to move on to the next 'case'. And then we go and call them depressed and living a life not worth living. Now, how's that for causes and effects.

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Originally Posted by Nessus

The fact that this is a serious post is just the saddest thing

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While my initial response was the same as Hazir's, what in particular is so disturbing about my post? I have older relatives too. My grandmother is 95 (turning 96 in a few months). She was extremely depressed after her last boyfriend died a year ago and she began having some trouble walking. She had a small birthday coming up, so I went down and came as a surprise. Then convinced her to come up to NY for a week to go to museums, see her great grand children, a restaurant or two. It helped a lot, she's now incorporated visits more into her routine and is doing a lot better.

Just because I'm floating the possibility of a slightly more sanguine approach doesn't mean...well, actually what does it mean that's so bothersome to you?

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Originally Posted by Bitter Jeweler

I want the ability to decide that I have lived my life to the fullest, and decide when I am done.


Do you want an off button?

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Yes. And I want it in a diginified medical setting available for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

While my initial response was the same as Hazir's, what in particular is so disturbing about my post? I have older relatives too. My grandmother is 95 (turning 96 in a few months). She was extremely depressed after her last boyfriend died a year ago and she began having some trouble walking. She had a small birthday coming up, so I went down and came as a surprise. Then convinced her to come up to NY for a week to go to museums, see her great grand children, a restaurant or two. It helped a lot, she's now incorporated visits more into her routine and is doing a lot better.

Just because I'm floating the possibility of a slightly more sanguine approach doesn't mean...well, actually what does it mean that's so bothersome to you?

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Based on what Bitter posted, I'm not sure these examples are very germane to his situation; he doesn't want to gas granny because she's a nuisance, but that's kind of the straw-man being set up here.

Possibly not, but I suppose I'm curious about why he's "washing [his] hands" of her in so many ways. It could be for entirely personal and legitimate reasons. And I'm not talking about trying superhuman and expensive things to keep her alive.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Conceptually, yeah it makes total sense. But at an individual level, are you ready to give up on her, Bitter? At least on the emotional level —*maybe taking her out and breaking her routines a bit would either make her happier enough to rally a bit, or make her content enough to feel like she's really ready (instead of saying it).

I realize you've probably thought about this before, but just speaking from personal experience sometimes taking my older relatives out for some time (especially something visually stimulating) can be great.

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Who said I gave up on her? I see that she is miserable, feeble physically and mentally. I've made many suggestions for better care for her rather than living alone, but since I am powerless...

I do feel guilty that I live so far away from all of my family. Heck I feel guilty that I often work 70-90 hours a week and have to listen to my husband whine about not having enough time for him. I have no solutions for time.

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Originally Posted by Nessus

Most def want an off button!



For someone in their 20s, maybe not. Depression and the associated anxiety, social withdrawal and general loss of the will to live can, in some cases, be 'cured' and people do get a second chance.

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Exactly. I think many of you misconstrue my feelings towards suicide. I am not "pro" suicide for young people. I am against demonizing the victim.

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For someone in their 80s? They're not lonely because they've isolated themselves from society, they're lonely because everyone in their former peer group is dead, their relatives have grown old and sedentary, or grown up and are living their own lives. Their physiology is deteriorating at an increasing pace. Even if they wanted to try and have romantic encounters, their minds and bodies cannot. There's probably physical pain from old age, and there's also the loss of mobility, irregular bowel function, and a host of other symptoms.

And there is the knowledge that soon, soon it's their turn.

Their depression can be 'cured' by doping them up with so many happy pills and morphine, but let's not pretend even for a second that they have "something to live for if they just really tried!" :| You try living six months so that you're absolutely alone, wearing a lead apron, only to get visited two times by random relatives within that time. You will not be told in advance when they'll come. Give that a go, and we'll look at your mental well-being afterwards.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Oh cool, here we have it again; we can't be bothered about old people. Their lives are worthless so really they should be helped to put an end to something as miserable as that. It would never do to try to make their lives nicer if you can also off them.

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Ummm...most of talking about my grandmother was a lead up to me and hubby thinking about our own situation, where we won't have anybody to make decisions for us when we get like her. And because of that I want the option to end MY life when I am comfortable doing so. Hubby feels the same. If we get put in a nursing home, we won't have ANY family come visit us. I want the option of an off button. I don't want to end up like my great aunt who doesn't recognize family, doesn't even know she has two sons (who both live in Texas, while she is still here in Ohio, and yeah, THEY have washed their hands of her), doesn't know where she is...Yeah...I don't want that. You are right hazir, I am an awful, awful person.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

It isn't, but there is an alternative. Like treating them like people rather than a nuisance. You'd be surprise how people react to not being put away in a storage while waiting for they to die.

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Keep making assumptions. Where did I say I was waiting for her to die. Where did I call her a nuisance? I said I picked up on many clues that SHE is ready. That she is just riding it out at this point. It's quite sad. So, let's get back to my question. Do YOU want to live like that, or do you want the option to make a decision for yourself. It's not your families decision, it's yours. I don't want my grandmother to have an off button that I can push. I want her to have the option for herself.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

No, I am serious about this. I think a lot of the suffering is caused by the rampant age-ism in western society. How many people are living in retirement homes, nursing homes getting all they may need physically but who never see a person besides the meals on wheels person or the care-giver who has 12 minutes 30 seconds to wash them before they have to move on to the next 'case'. And then we go and call them depressed and living a life not worth living. Now, how's that for causes and effects.

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How many people in nursing home even have anyone to come visit? And back to what I was talking about...What about the people who have dimentia, who don't know where they are, who the visitors are? Who are being kept alive with drugs.

Society has changed, and modern society keeps people alive, no matter the cost.
People no longer have their elders living with them. There was a time the old would die at home from the many things they are treated and drugged for now, to keep them alive. But at what cost? Being kept alive regardless of the quality of "living".

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Originally Posted by Nessus

Based on what Bitter posted, I'm not sure these examples are very germane to his situation; he doesn't want to gas granny because she's a nuisance, but that's kind of the straw-man being set up here.

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Again, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Possibly not, but I suppose I'm curious about why he's "washing [his] hands" of her in so many ways. It could be for entirely personal and legitimate reasons. And I'm not talking about trying superhuman and expensive things to keep her alive.

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I said "I had kinda washed my hands of all this, because nobody would listen to me that she needed to go to assisted living." That she is becoming a danger to herself.
I expressed concern that she should not be driving. She could get lost. She could cause an accident. She could kill someone. She had been seen getting out of her car, leaving it running, leaving the door open, and going about her business, several times. She had called my sister because her car wouldn't start. It was out of gas, in her garage. The potential for carbon monoxide poisoning from leaving the car running in an attached garage is there. What was the families response? Let her drive till she causes an accident. WTF? Really? But Hazir says I am uncaring.

Her neighbor would repeatedly call my cousin to tell him what was going on with her. He would call me, I would call my sister and godmother, that something needs to be done (assisted living). It was always poo-pooed. Thats why I washed my hands of it.

My sister would complain about her wearing dirty clothes, and believes she isn't doing laundry. Well, her washer IS in the basement. So I offered a remedy. Well, my sister couldn't be bothered to do her laundry, so how about hiring someone to come and do it once a week? NO! She can't afford it. Ok, How about we do a little plumbing and move the laundry to one of the three bedrooms on the first floor? Everyone said no. WTF? Yeah, Hazir, I am uncaring and just want her dead because she is a nuisance. Fuck you.

My sister, who lives 10 minutes away repeatedly told me how lucky I am that I live an hour an a half away, that I don't have to deal with this. My godmother lives a block away, and my cousin lives 20 minutes away. But then i am left out of any decision making. :bulb:

Yia Yia's neighbor eventually called (i can't remember the name) Family Protective Services. My sisters tone changed when she was told she could be prosecuted for endangerment and neglect, because she has power of attorney and stuff.

Let's add this to the situation...my mother made me power of attorney, and executor of her will. Mom told me she choose me because she knew I was caring, trusted my decisions, and would be fair (will;money). What does that say about my sister. When mom died, my sister was amazed she picked me for all that. She even asked me if I knew why she choose me. That put me in a tough spot and all I could say was "I don't know". But it shows why in this current situation, where most of my sisters decisions come down to money, and inconvenience, rather than compassion.


To Ominous Gamer, about teaching granny to give herself an insulin injection...she doesn't take her meds as it is, what makes you think she will give herself a shot?

Actually I wasn't making assumptions. I don't know you very well and I don't know your grandmother at all. I was talking in fairly general terms about the way older people in our society are treated. I don't automatically assume you want to off her because she's a nuisance. Actually the fact that you write about her seems to indicate that you have some genuine interest in her wellbeing. That however is less and less the norm.

My answer is still no, if only to spit 'that particular society' in the face.

I'm very much with Hazir on this one. A lot of old people would be a lot happier and a lot less "ready" to go if they could have better lives in our youth-centered societies. PS. and if we could stop drugging them with brain-drugs :mad:

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Actually I wasn't making assumptions. I don't know you very well and I don't know your grandmother at all. I was talking in fairly general terms about the way older people in our society are treated. I don't automatically assume you want to off her because she's a nuisance. Actually the fact that you write about her seems to indicate that you have some genuine interest in her wellbeing. That however is less and less the norm.

My answer is still no, if only to spit 'that particular society' in the face.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

I'm very much with Hazir on this one. A lot of old people would be a lot happier and a lot less "ready" to go if they could have better lives in our youth-centered societies. PS. and if we could stop drugging them with brain-drugs :mad:

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Setting aside euthanasia for a moment, Hazir / Aimy, do you guys support physician assisted suicide for those of sound mind?

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Originally Posted by Aimless

A lot of old people would be a lot happier and a lot less "ready" to go if they could have better lives in our youth-centered societies.

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This is all health and mobility issues aside, right?

Yes, I want an off button. Physician assisted suicide. That screws up the life insurance stuff, doesn't it?


All aside from the old people issue. How do we treat the elderly? Not well!

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Originally Posted by Bitter Jeweler

This is all health and mobility issues aside, right?

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They generally get substandard care for their health and mobility issues.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Setting aside euthanasia for a moment, Hazir / Aimy, do you guys support physician assisted suicide for those of sound mind?

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I think so, at least in principle.

Odd coincidence:



http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...Picture1-5.png

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Setting aside euthanasia for a moment, Hazir / Aimy, do you guys support physician assisted suicide for those of sound mind?

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Not really, I can't even say that I'm supportive of euthanasia. For the reasons I mentioned above I think assisted suicide and euthanasia is too convenient a way for an uncaring society to get rid of people who aren't productive any longer. That doesn't mean I think people are not entitled to make their own choices even in the case of life and death. I just think that such choices should be made out of one's free will and one's free will only. I don't really believe people who are depressed because they have been cut out of the lives of their family necessarily conclude that their life is no longer worth living out of their free will as I understand it.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Not really, I can't even say that I'm supportive of euthanasia. For the reasons I mentioned above I think assisted suicide and euthanasia is too convenient a way for an uncaring society to get rid of people who aren't productive any longer. That doesn't mean I think people are not entitled to make their own choices even in the case of life and death. I just think that such choices should be made out of one's free will and one's free will only. I don't really believe people who are depressed because they have been cut out of the lives of their family necessarily conclude that their life is no longer worth living out of their free will as I understand it.

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Ok, now I understand more where you are coming from.
I feel the same (bolded part).

that is my question to (you). Do you want to be able to make that choice for yourself. Can you not concieve of any situation that you would want that ability?

And with your following sentence, I would love to be able to talk to my grandmother about how she feels. But I know it would be upsetting to her, and don't want to do that. I think her possible depression has been overlooked by everyone but me. Nobody seems to key in on the little clues she drops. But at the same time i look at her whole picture, and get the sense that she is tired of ALL that ails her. but you are right, nobody has aforrded her any kind of "therapy" for any such depression. I mean, her only daughter died before she did. She's lost 4 husbands...most of her friends are dead...

I forgot about Stephen (my hubbies) mothers passing 2 years ago. She had a relatively terminal disease. Her life was being extended with night stand full of drugs. She was on oxygen. She had a year or two I believe. She chose to stop taking the drugs. She gathered up the family for one last visit, and then quit taking them. Everyone respected her decision except her doctor, who wouldn't prescribe morphine for her. She was quite a spitfire, and finally won, and two weeks after Stephens visit, she passed away.

I just don't like a medical comunnity that is all about extending or preserving life at whatever the cost, monetary, physical or mental. And not taking into account the persons wishes.