Losing deposit on old tenancy

We left our rented house of 2 years and agreed with the landlord there were a few bumps and bruises and we'd take responsibility for them from the deposit he'd taken from us when we moved in. Some could possibly be put down as wear and tear but we'd not argue it.

Should still get most of it back though right? No he's now in fact claimed for all our deposit (just over £650) and says we owe him a further £200 so can we write him a cheque? Reading through it and some of his claims seem to be taking the piss.

Eg a glass plate on an IKEA wardrobe door got damaged. Cost £50. Cost to us: £127.80
"Time for removal of damaged door, ( a joiner’s rate at £20 per hour) £20 and mileage (40p per mile) £3 to tip for disposal of same, time £30 and mileage £4.80 to IKEA for purchase of new door £50, labour time £20 for fitting."

It's an IKEA door, it fits with 4 screws FFS!

This proceeds for a few items - 2 of which I'd complained about as faults that were never fixed and somehow its ballooned into £876.60 more than half of which is "time". I think it's BS, he's trying to make a profit out of this. I've built plenty of IKEA furniture before and its never taken me 1 hour to fit 1 door, and I wouldn't call a joiner in to do it. Nor would he, he's done it himself and wants £70 for "time".

Glad to be in my own home now where we take responsibility for ourselves only, but any advice? From what I think is fair he'd owe us a few hundred back, yet he's asking me to pay a few hundred to him. He's even written a cheeky remark at the end of his list about how he's not claimed for time for some items, eg changing light bulbs. I replaced all the light bulbs in the house (which had all blown in the main sockets, only lamps worked in most rooms by the end as I'd given up changing bulbs every few weeks). A week before we moved out I changed them all only for them 4 to blow again in the following week. At the time we had an unresolved electrical fault where the shower fan wasn't working. Even still what would he do, charge £20 for the 4 bulbs. Just makes me worried that if I try to challenge it he'll try to do that.

I can just imagine it: "Time for removal of bulbs, ( an electrician’s rate at £20 per hour) £20 and mileage (40p per mile) £3 to tip for disposal of same, time £30 and mileage £4.80 to ASDA for purchase of new bulbs £3, labour time £20 for fitting." Total £80.80 (£3 of it parts)

Sounds like he ballooning the charges so you will settle for not getting anything back. Over here there ain't much room to fight outside of small claims.

This is why when I damage something in a rental I fix it myself. I've rescreened patios, replaced windows, even painted rooms before to protect myself from dealing with something like this.

If any of these problems were issues you were experiencing with the property, hopefully you've got documention. Again over here, we have to have a walk through on file that lists preexisting damage or possible issues before we move in. As an extra measure (for me) everything that needs addressed gets printed and sent in with the rent check each month.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Same old sad story told by most tenants.

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Landlords usually set the deposit at an amount that isn't worth spending your valuable time trying to recoup. A man of principle will spend more than that amount (in time) to get it back.

You're getting ripped off Rand. Sorry to hear it. The asshole deserves a fight but he knows its not worth your time. He's a landlord / part time thief.

Sorry, but renting seems to work that way. Unless you have a certified/signed checklist from the landlord showing the condition when you moved in, comparing it to the condition when you moved out....you may be at his subjective mercy.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Sorry, but renting seems to work that way. Unless you have a certified/signed checklist from the landlord showing the condition when you moved in, comparing it to the condition when you moved out....you may be at his subjective mercy.

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I've rented a LOT in the past, at big complexes and from individual owners and I always got the lion's share of my deposit back. Any charges were real and reasonable. This guy's screwing Rand. On the other hand, there was the land lady who was keeping the money I was paying her for utilities instead of paying the bill.... I didn't even pay a deposit at that place.

Big complexes (and savvy individual owners) use pre and post occupancy checklists, and signed walk-through documents. That's the only legal (or logical) way to protect a deposit.

To me it sounds as if he's not going to give you back that deposit. He'll also not pursue getting the 'extra' but that's like OG said just to discourage you. It's nasty to lose that much money but I don't see you getting it back without incurring major costs.

It's funny though, I never did this to any of the people who rented from me. I never felt that fleecing tenants was helping me ahead in the world. Probably I could have charged some people some money, but I simply see tear and wear as part of the deal when I rent a place. Typically I'd repaint the whole place anyway if somebody had stayed there for more than 6 months.

Landlord playing landlord games. Sorry.

He is certainly putting the LORD back into landlord.

Rand, if YOU were the landlord, you'd probably do the same damn thing to a tenant. In fact, you'd probably say, "Being a landlord doesn't mean losing money".

Being a landlord automatically makes one immoral? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Loki

Being a landlord automatically makes one immoral? :confused:

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Who are you talking to? If your reply was to me, I'd say there's nothing here that screams "immoral".

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Originally Posted by Loki

Being a landlord automatically makes one immoral? :confused:

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Is it immoral? Tenants are frequently screwing landlords (toothpaste covering up holes, anybody?) So many landlords just work from the default that they'll hold onto all deposits and come up with reasons after the fact. The notion is that few tenants will hassle for that amount of money. If you take the landlord to small claims court (which I did once), the landlord will just no-show, and you get your money. Minimal hassle for the landlord. This is SOP for most owners with lots of properties. That's why after that initial experience I've always rented from landlords with a handful of units. They think of their tenants as humans, not entries in a ledger.

Now, a post to Rand. If the IKEA wardrobe thing was such a small thing, then why didn't you take care of that before ending your lease? If working light bulbs and/or electrical switches were part of your entry lease agreement, then why shouldn't it be included upon your exit of the lease?

I had an experience like this a few years ago in another city. This landlord in particular tried to charge all of us an enormous sum for one big thing, instead of several small things.

The issue at hand was that his 94 year old upstairs bathroom had a 94 year old wooden floor that had warped pretty severely under the tub. I didn't notice it until soon after we moved in, let him know about it and that was kinda it. One year later the damage was our fault and we had to forfeit a combined $5000 (among 7 of us) to pay for that and a window that got broken by an attempted break-in.

I had a bad experience in the house and was in a fighting mood, so I told him I was going to take him to small claims court and make him prove this was a $5000 job. He began to try to "negotiate" a bit until we found an old e-mail where he acknowledged that the bathroom floor needed to be replaced before we moved in and he caved except for the ridiculous cost of the ground-floor window replacement.

If you:

- Can demonstrate or at least itemize where he's charging you for things you asked to have fixed
- Have the time for a whatever small claims process exists there (if there is)
- You're able to prove he's inflating the cost for replacement materials
- You're able to make some of these fixes on your own...

I'd say definitely challenge him. Even just saying you intend to seek recourse should get him to back down some unless he's one of those sociopath Napoleon complex landlords. Which unfortunately happens a lot.

Not sure it's fair to equate US college students renting with Rand renting in the UK. Is it?

I mean, Rand was already a college graduate, and pretty smart about money and contracts. Even if he wasn't so smart, it sounded like he had his folks giving him advice. He ended up renting an apartment, good for him. But now it sounds like sour grapes when he's checking out. He should have made sure his rental agreement was sound on check-in as well as check-out. Just like renting a car. Being a renter for 2 years doesn't really mean squat. What matters is the initial contract. If he didn't do a walk-through with the landlord and get it in writing two years ago, he doesn't have much to complain about two years later.

I got fucked over by a landlord once, only once.

I had rented a shitty little 3 bedroom hovel in a shitty area which had no gardens or lawn but was basically a house on a 1/4 acre of grey dirt, the walls had been painted but not sealed so if you brushed your hand on the wall the paint came off in a powdery form, the carpets were worn and stained.

By the time I moved out 12 months later we had established lawn and gardens and it was a much nicer looking place - this was mostly due to my girlfriend at the time being a green fingered genius in the garden. It wasn't the garden that caused me trouble though (the landlord actually thanked us for doing up the gardens while simultaneously taking our bond money!).
The problem was a) the carpet b) the walls.

The carpet was stained and worn but we had a professional cleaning service come wash the carpets and walls and they looked better than when we moved in - or so we believed. The landlord disagreed and after much discussion (and after taking my dads advice) I suggested an independent assessment - which we got. It ended up being 50/50 with the assessment deciding that the carpet was just normal wear and tear and we were not liable but that we were liable for the painting of the walls. I was given the choice of losing 50% of my bond or painting the kitchen and dining room walls. I agreed to paint. I then went to a salvage yard and paid $3 for 10 litres of the same crappy paint that was already on the walls and I spent a whole Sunday repainting.

I got my money - at the time bond was set at 4 weeks rent and rent was $120 per week so by spending $3 and one day I got back my $480 and learned a lesson.

After that I was more diligent with my obligations - I made sure the damage report was comprehensive (here they have a damage report indicating existing damage or wear to the house at the time of signing the lease). I also went a step further and did a video walk through of the house and narrated along the way describing all the scratches, dents and wear marks around the house and verified the date and time. I gave a copy of the video to the landlord.

I rented 4 more places after that before I got wise and bought a home of my own but I had no problems with the other 4 landlords. All of them were impressed by the video idea and I know that one of them began doing the same thing with his tenants to protect his interests.

Carpeting and walls are the bane of the renter's existence.

I once rented an apartment with carpeting at its end life, but being young and inexperienced, I didn't know that. I was also too young and arrogant to have an experienced adult do the walk-through with me before I signed the lease. I was honed into the walls and never made a single nail hole (but used the toothpaste method to cover previous renter's holes) I left the fridge and oven cleaner than I found it, but the carpeting ended up biting me. I kept it clean and even rented one of those Rug Doctor carpet cleaning machines before terminating my lease, to be on the safe side.

Wear and Tear couldn't be shampooed out, so I lost part of my deposit. That was how I learned the ways of renting, how it works, what to look for in a contract. The hard way. It's a game, really. Young first time renters often pay the price. It's not the best way to do business.......

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Originally Posted by GGT

Not sure it's fair to equate US college students renting with Rand renting in the UK. Is it?

I mean, Rand was already a college graduate, and pretty smart about money and contracts. Even if he wasn't so smart, it sounded like he had his folks giving him advice. He ended up renting an apartment, good for him. But now it sounds like sour grapes when he's checking out. He should have made sure his rental agreement was sound on check-in as well as check-out. Just like renting a car. Being a renter for 2 years doesn't really mean squat. What matters is the initial contract. If he didn't do a walk-through with the landlord and get it in writing two years ago, he doesn't have much to complain about two years later.

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A renter is a renter. It's not like I had some kind of special student contract.

What qualifies as "damage" and the cost of repair are pretty common bones of contention. I suspect the contract doesn't specify that the landlord can replace specific things and make up the prices for them too.

And it does go both ways. In another apartment in Philly, the paint on the walls got all messed up from this weird wooden thing mounted on it that I took off. I reported it and they offered to give me some paint and plaster. I fixed it and ended up getting an extra $50 on my security deposit six months later.

You're right, Dread. A renter is a renter. A contract is a contract. Leaving a property in the same condition it was found depends on the wording of the contract. Often times, renters are clueless or naive. Of all the people who could complain about being "victimized" by a rental lease, I wouldn't think Rand would be among them.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Rand, if YOU were the landlord, you'd probably do the same damn thing to a tenant. In fact, you'd probably say, "Being a landlord doesn't mean losing money".

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Come on, that's not fair. You have no basis at all for accusing Rand of dishonesty. Hyper capitalism is not equivalent to robbing someone.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Being a landlord automatically makes one immoral? :confused:

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That's an odd take on her comment. I assumed she was attacking Rand specifically based on his ideology.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

That's an odd take on her comment. I assumed she was attacking Rand specifically based on his ideology.

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Rand's ideology is to steal from other people? :confused:

WTF? I was not "attacking" Rand. Nor accusing him of dishonesty. Simply taking his renter perspective and flipping it to the landlord perspective. That's not outrageous in any way, and it's perfectly "fair".

Like i said, if he is a man of principle and was truly wronged then he will get his money back. Otherwise he will do like most renters and let it go.

Yeah, sometimes landlords really have a warped perspective. I had rented a single room inside a house and was preparing to move out. While moving the IKEA furniture away from the wall, I noticed a rather large water stain on said wall. Due to the moisture, the back of one of my Billy shelves had also been damaged a bit - nothing serious though.

On the other side of this wall, there was a toilet, so I thought to myself that one of the pipes must've sprung a leak and pointed it out to the landlord. However, he was more concerned about me potentially wanting to replace the shelf on his money (which I did not want) than having to open the wall and replace the piping...

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Originally Posted by GGT

Rand, if YOU were the landlord, you'd probably do the same damn thing to a tenant. In fact, you'd probably say, "Being a landlord doesn't mean losing money".

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I agree that it's not right he should lose money and I'm happy to pay back what's fair and reasonable, he's claiming things that are not fair and reasonable.

Definitely not on the receipts is an invoice from a joiner for £40 for replacing the door, shock horror. As if it takes an hour to do 4 screws anyway.

I'm struggling to find what I'm liable to pay on Google in the UK (bringing a lot of results from the States even if searching UK only). One page says he can't charge for his own "time" but can if he's paid someone else, so that rules out the £70 for the IKEA wardrobe if true. Interestingly as well on the IKEA receipt is stuff he's bought not for us ... so if he's gone to IKEA anyway for other stuff, should he charge me £30 for his time going there? Even if he's allowed to charge for time.

Interestingly I've asked him now for receipts, he's scanned in some and sent them to me. Some are genuine and match what he's asked for (the ones I already thought were reasonable charges), some don't match at all. A pain of glass I reported as a fault he's asked me to pay £25 for (which I think should be his responsibility anyway) has a receipt for £6.37

While he's claimed he's paid a cleaning company 12 hours at £10 an hour so £120. We left the house clean, did inside the oven, cleaned the walls etc, etc ... he has a "receipt" for this but it looks so incredibly fake. The name of the "company" I won't mention here because if I did it would be the only refence for it on Google. Google that cleaning company and there are no references for it whatsoever, nothing at all, Google reports no matches found. What sort of company nowadays can not be found at all on Google (not even covered by other more popular ones). I think he's printed that off himself. Nor is there a VAT number for it, I'm tempted to say I'll query it with the Inland Revenue.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Rand, if YOU were the landlord, you'd probably do the same damn thing to a tenant. In fact, you'd probably say, "Being a landlord doesn't mean losing money".

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Nonsense, I would most likely not even bother to deduct anything from the deposit for the type of damages described by Rand. The only deductions I have ever made at all were for outstanding utility bills that were not included in the rent.

The rent for a furnished place already reflects the fact that you also pay for the furnishing available, that means that as a landlord you write off whatever is in the property as it is used. Any other way of reasoning is utter rubbish, no matter how common it is.

12 hours of cleaning for a small empty house ? Interesting billing there.

At my previous place, I had a one month's worth of rent as a deposit, and I simply didn't pay my last month of rent so that he couldn't hold on to my deposit. Not that nice either, but I left the room in a good condition and I knew the guy could be a bit of a dick.

At this place there is, luckily, no deposit, and there's a walk-through with someone of the renting agency to check the place when you leave. If something isn't the way they want it, they will tell you and you can choose between fixing it yourself, or having it fixed but they make an assessment of the costs before you choose. Seems fair to me! Of course, the new renters can also choose to take some of the things you leave. Makes good bargaining, too: "you can keep the curtains and the fridge if you agree to take the walls like this", saving you the effort to re-paint them.

Bad news Rand. You sure get your share of bad luck don't you. :(

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Originally Posted by Hazir

To me it sounds as if he's not going to give you back that deposit. He'll also not pursue getting the 'extra' but that's like OG said just to discourage you. It's nasty to lose that much money but I don't see you getting it back without incurring major costs.

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Yep agreed.

This fella is taking the Michael.

Your path of least resistance is to accept losing your 650 quid, and tell him to shove his demand for 200 quid extra and to take you to small claims court if he wants it, where he will lose.

If you feel like you have the time, price up the parts that need replacing, get quotes to get them replaced, and submit the list to the landlord with the bill totalling less than £650, which from what you describe it surely will. Also point out the items he's charging you for but that you had mentioned as needing replacing during your tenancy. However if there is no written record of your asking for these items to be replaced, he could just dismiss it as being your vivid imagination.

I've rented 13 or 14 properties in my time, and not once have I had to deal with a petty thief like that - have always been dealt with fairly and have always got back the majority of my deposits.

Gah. I feel really frustrated for you. Horrible dealing with shitbags like this. :sour: